Irish times journalist says that Irish fee paying schools not elitist !!!

RMD

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah thats why parents send their kids to belvedere -to become charity workers.

Show me where I said that, I'll give you a fiver. I was talking about a previous poster mentioning he'd send his kids to a public school to build character while I said Jesuit schools are my choice as I feel charity work is what builds character, which Jesuit schools place a heavy emphsize on. Nothing to do with their kids becoming charity workers of any sort.

You really seem to have a nack at taking things completely out of context.

genericguy

phasers wrote: »

Everyone can go to whatever school they like tbh. My secondary school was a ****hole but I and many others still did better than some people who went to private school.

It depends on the student, and if the parents have 12 grand or whatever it is to spare, let them pay it!

this sums up my thoughts. if it's right for the student and the money is floating about, absolutely go for it.

go raibh maith agaibh agus oíche mhaith agaibh go léir.

Dudess

brosps wrote: »

If you check out the average leaving cert points for individual schools you'd notice that private schools infact, do better on a frequent basis.

Two key things that need to be accounted for here though: grinds and the fact it's pretty much a rite of passage for middle and upper middle class people to go to university.

ballsymchugh wrote: »

dudess u was kinda agreeing with you up until this post. so now it's not just private schools, but Catholic private schools. as many previous posters have said, Jesuit schools are for more than just education and are character building.

Oh I don't claim to be telling it exactly as it is, it's just from my observations, the catholic schools (and I'm referring to "generic" catholic, not Jesuit) tend to be the cliched rugger ones, whereas places like The High School in Rathgar, Bandon Grammar in Cork... these are protestant/non denominational and seem more hippy liberal middle-class.

but to everyone!!
you are all basing this on a minority of d!ckwads that go to any school. yes, there are kids in private schools that see themselves as superior beings to most, but only some. but they tend to be vocal (that furore on the wonderful joe duffy show during the summer about blackrock being on case)
it's like the other thread on hating the english. i hate the english because their football supporters piss me off every time there's a world cup on. that's a minority of supporters too. they just tend to be vocal.

seriously. how many people here are basing their posts on ross o'carroll kelly books?? hands up!!!

In my case, it's more an issue with people having the black and white view: private = good; state = bad. It's down to the individual school.

But yeah, saying all private school students/graduates are snobs etc is akin to saying all state school students/graduates are "knackers".

stovelid

Ashley Disgusting Spout wrote: »

Doesn't sound too un-reasonable an argument to me

I'm not sure why you're chucking it up with the dopey, grammar snobs?

It's unreasonable. No hyphen required.

brosps

Dudess wrote: »

Two key things that need to be accounted for here though: grinds and the fact it's pretty much a rite of passage for middle and upper middle class people to go to university.

Sorry, but that is a ridiculous excuse...

Dudess

I don't know what you mean. These are factors which go some way to explaining why grades are better in private schools. It's not just a case of "private school means a better education".

I'm not saying all private school students go for grinds though...

ballsymchugh

Dudess wrote: »

Oh I don't claim to be telling it exactly as it is, it's just from my observations, the catholic schools (and I'm referring to "generic" catholic, not Jesuit) tend to be the cliched rugger ones, whereas places like The High School in Rathgar, Bandon Grammar in Cork... these are protestant/non denominational and seem more hippy liberal middle-class.

ok so that needs to be switched around. it's the cliched rugger schools that get on your nerves, not the Catholic ones. if you take many of the other boarding schools in the country (most of which are not boarding any more) from St kieran's in kilkenny, st jarlath's in tuam, st pat's cavan, colaiste chriost ri in cork, st mel's in longford, good counsel in new ross....
these were all catholic boarding schools where people one day had to pay fortunes to get into, and they're all GAA schools. and legendary at it too.

jdivision

jonsnow wrote: »

ORLAITH CARMODY

don't think she's an irish times journalist, it's just an opinion piece I'd say

Dudess

They don't get on my nerves.

I'm not "out to get" people who went/go to private schools here...

brosps

Dudess wrote: »

I don't know what you mean. These are factors which go some way to explaining why grades are better in private schools. It's not just a case of "private school means a better education".

I'm not saying all private school students go for grinds though...

Those factors are why private schools cost money. Larger classrooms with fewer pupils per class, your personal bias is making it seem like that is a bad thing.

Also, this is not an issue of social classes.

Dudess

If you have a good read back through my posts on this thread, you'll see I'm not actually that biased - more occupying the fence really.

Elliemental

Are the schools in the article basically the same as an English boarding school? (Sorry for being so dumb in asking this, but I know little about the Irish education system, having never had any experience of it).

But surely, all fee paying schools, by their nature are elitist? You either have the cash to send your little darlings to one, or you don`t? The haves and the have nots?

Dudess

Nah, some people don't have the cash to spare - and scrimp and save to get it. There are also scholarships.

Elliemental

Elliemental wrote: »

But surely, all fee paying schools, by their nature are elitist? You either have the cash to send your little darlings to one, or you don`t? The haves and the have nots?

Well, no, nothing that's simplistic! There are plenty of people who can afford it but don't send them. And There are people who can barely afford it (moi!) but do it anyway.

Bear in mind that most of these schools (not the one in the article) are much cheaper than creches - which alot of people send their kids to nowadays.

spurious

Selection of children at entry is another major factor in a school's exam successes.

Public Schools (VECs) are obliged to take all applicants, unless they can make a strong case not to.

Fee-paying schools are not.

Elliemental

Yes, England has the scholarship system too, but places are very few and far between, even for the ones who do make the grade. A lot of the time, parents are still expected to contribute a percentage of the fees. Which again, is another disadvantage.

Are state schools here experiencing similar problems to the ones in England? ie, ninety kids crammed into a room half the size of a prison cell, thats unfit for human habitation, while some well-meaning, but utterly powerless to do anything, locum teacher tries in vain to teach?

(Sorry to OP for going off topic, here).

Elliemental

Elliemental wrote: »

Yes, England has the scholarship system too, but places are very few and far between, even for the ones who do make the grade. A lot of the time, parents are still expected to contribute a percentage of the fees. Which again, is another disadvantage.

Are state schools here experiencing similar problems to the ones in England? ie, ninety kids crammed into a room half the size of a prison cell, thats unfit for human habitation, while some well-meaning, but utterly powerless to do anything, locum teacher tries in vain to teach?

(Sorry to OP for going off topic, here).

Alot are yeh unfortunately. Some aren't.

Actually, that brings me to another point. Would you (not you Elliemental - all posters!!) consider it a bad thing for parents not to send their child to the school closest to their homes if there was a better school slightly further away?

stovelid

eoin wrote: »

What do you mean by street smart in this context? How would you see a public school teaching this in a way a private school wouldn't?

In public school, it means learning how to deal coke; in private school - how to best procure it.

Elliemental

Deleted User wrote: »

Alot are yeh unfortunately. Some aren't.

Actually, that brings me to another point. Would you (not you Elliemental - all posters!!) consider it a bad thing for parents not to send their child to the school closest to their homes if there was a better school slightly further away?

Surely all parents want whats best, so you could hardly criticise them for sending their children to the better school thats further away.

Elliemental

Elliemental wrote: »

Surely all parents want whats best, so you could hardly criticise them for sending their children to the better school thats further away.

Precisely!

The majority of people I know put their kids names in "the best school" (non fee paying) as soon as they are born, or put down a relatives address to get them into a school outside of their catchment area, and noone would criticise that. But when someone takes the extra step and gets together the money to send their kid to a fee paying school - they are elitist and snobby!

Eoin

genericguy wrote: »

you see, therein lies the problem - the proponents of private education always assume that anybody who favours a way of life other than their own has a chip on their shoulder. while in some cases this may be true, for me this absolutely isn't the case, all i'm saying is i would rather be able to say that i raised a well-adjusted, well-rounded individual with a good appreciation of the circumstances of others who are in some cases less/more fortunate, good people, criminals, or those who are simply pricks. all of whom they will certainly encounter throughout their lives.

No, I don't always assume that. For a start, I would pick the best school; public or private. I am not particularly pro-private schooling. However, I do get pissed off with the generalisations of private school students being from well-to-do families with no comprehension of any other type of life outside their own. I mean, come on - you have to go to a public school to be well-rounded and adjusted? How condescending is that.

When I left school in 96, it was 1-2K per year for a day school student in many private schools. While not affordable by everyone, it certainly wasn't the preserve of the "upper class". There was a very wide mix in my school.

jonsnow

eoin wrote: »

While not affordable by everyone, it certainly wasn't the preserve of the "upper class". There was a very wide mix in my school.

It was a school rich in diversity.Where barristers children were educated side by side with doctors and dentists kids.:D

Four-Percent

jonsnow wrote: »

It was a school rich in diversity.Where barristers children were educated side by side with doctors and dentists kids.:D

Jaysus jonsnow you're gas.

Reindeer

There is no way on earth I would allow my children to attend a public school. All one need do is peruse these boards to realise your children would be better served in a private institution. Any parent that has the means would be foolish to give the state the job of rearing them.

Four-Percent

Reindeer wrote: »

There is no way on earth I would allow my children to attend a public school. All one need do is peruse these boards to realise your children would be better served in a private institution. Any parent that has the means would be foolish to give the state the job of rearing them.

You're gas too, intentionally or otherwise

jonsnow

Four-Percent wrote: »

Jaysus jonsnow you're gas.

Thanks four-per cent.I appreciate that.I think your a "gas" man too.To show my appreciation I,m going to give you a friendly thumbs up.

melekalikimaka

genericguy wrote: »

i wouldn't be interested in sending any children i may have to one of these schools, irrespective of my income. i went to an absolute shithole school, and although i probably wouldn't choose one of those for my children either, public schools are far better for character development than private schools full of fintans and andreas, and that in my view is far more important than a 600 point leaving certificate.

i have been to both and i utterly disagree, you have clearly never been to a private school so please refrain making this outlandish statements. private education and schools are a 100 times better than public school ( from my experience) for character building

deadhead13

Of the feeder schools to UCD and Trinity only 2 state schools, in both cases, are in the top 10. While there are of course other factors to consider, it does suggest going to a fee paying school increases your chances of going to university more than perhaps it should.

c4cat

The_Minister wrote: »

The enterance exams are normally to determine what stream the child is put in, not to determine if the child gets into school.
There are however interviews done prior to the child being accepted, to make sure that he/she can fit in, is interested in education etc.

The thing is that the type of parents that send their children to private school tend to care deeply that their child gets educated. You tend to get less disruptive children, and if they are disruptive, a quick call home usually sorts things.
All it takes is one or two children to wreck the education of all the others, only one or two parents who don't care. If a parent doesn't care about their child's education, they aren't going to spend thousands on it.

You are also more likely to have social problems in certain public schools.
The achievement difference between public and private schools is mostly attitude IMO.

Exactly the reasons I choose to send my child to a fee paying school

ballsymchugh

Reindeer wrote: »

There is no way on earth I would allow my children to attend a public school. All one need do is peruse these boards to realise your children would be better served in a private institution. Any parent that has the means would be foolish to give the state the job of rearing them.

are you ruling out any intervention by the state in anything to do with your kids rearing?? that could be a fair amount of children's allowance and innoculations to forego..
but seriously. about using different addresses to get better schools...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8073532.stm

i think this case was dropped in the end

ascanbe

I have no problem with the existence of private schools but they should not be subsidised by the state.
If parents feel the mainstream school system is not good enough for their kids then they have every right to shell out for private education; but they should have to hire and pay for the staff.
By paying the salaries of the teachers etc. the government is helping to foster a two tier system.

Boru1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clongowes_Wood_College Wikipedia gives fees for 2007 as €15,200. I have seen lower figures, but suspect these are not for full boarding as the author of the article is paying for. The wikipedia figure has gone unchallenged in over 150 revisions of the page so the 48,000 figure seems about right to me. I work hard in the elite semi state and my wife works hard in the elite public service. I dont think I could rise to these fees for my three kids.

Oh to be an 'ordinary hard working' person like the Clongowes parents are (last line of article)!

Teferi

jonsnow wrote: »

No you don,t.They are fairly homogenous racially and socially.

I'll give you racially but that's only because the vast majority of people in Ireland are white. We don't have the cross-section of cultures and races that somewhere like the United Kingdom has just yet. Even so, a lot of private schools are making the effort to combat this. Socially, no. There was a decent mix of all social classes in my school. From the most affluent snob to what some would consider knackers.

jonsnow wrote: »

So your saying in a country as snobby as Ireland which is riven by class division there is practically no snobbery in the countrys most elite schools.Yeah right

It might be viewed as snobbery from someone outside but it really isn't. Indeed, the best thing you get from a private school is the sense of community within and pride for the school and for each other. Anybody who I know who went to a public school has no good memories from it, hated everything to do with it etc.

jonsnow wrote: »

Right back at you

Right, because I'm talking from experience :rolleyes:

Generalise if you want, but private schools are such an easy target and a lot of it is unfounded. It's the same as me saying all northsiders are knackers.

leeroybrown

ascanbe wrote: »

I have no problem with the existence of private schools but they should not be subsidised by the state.
If parents feel the mainstream school system is not good enough for their kids then they have every right to shell out for private education; but they should have to hire and pay for the staff.
By paying the salaries of the teachers etc. the government is helping to foster a two tier system.

You're completely missing the point. Every child should (and is legally entitled to) receive the same state educational support regardless of the school they go to. If parents want to send their children to a private school they can pay as much extra money as they want over and above this, just as parents of the children in state schools end up subventing the existence of them by buying the books that the private schools provide in the fees, paying for heat charges, paying maintenance charges, etc.

IvyTheTerrible

Reindeer wrote: »

There is no way on earth I would allow my children to attend a public school. All one need do is peruse these boards to realise your children would be better served in a private institution. Any parent that has the means would be foolish to give the state the job of rearing them.

I thought rearing children was the parents job, not the teachers.

eoin

eoin wrote: »

No, I don't always assume that. For a start, I would pick the best school; public or private. I am not particularly pro-private schooling. However, I do get pissed off with the generalisations of private school students being from well-to-do families with no comprehension of any other type of life outside their own. I mean, come on - you have to go to a public school to be well-rounded and adjusted? How condescending is that.

In fairness, a LOT of the privately educated students I met in Dublin did not comprehend any other type of life. Last year, I couldn't go back to college because I couldn't afford the fees and my ex's brother asked me why my parents didn't just pay. I couldn't believe I was having to explain to a 19 year old that not everyone's mam and dad has thousands of euro lying around. Another girl (same private secondary) couldn't believe that a girl she worked with had never been to America. I would say the vast majority of Irish privately educated students I met felt they were above everyone else - a lot of them had no problem saying so.

[quote=[Deleted User];62325018]In fairness, a LOT of the privately educated students I met in Dublin did not comprehend any other type of life. Last year, I couldn't go back to college because I couldn't afford the fees and my ex's brother asked me why my parents didn't just pay. I couldn't believe I was having to explain to a 19 year old that not everyone's mam and dad has thousands of euro lying around. Another girl (same private secondary) couldn't believe that a girl she worked with had never been to America. I would say the vast majority of Irish privately educated students I met felt they were above everyone else - a lot of them had no problem saying so.[/QUOTE]

That's nothing to do with them going to private school though. It has everything to do with them being raised with a snobby attitude and that is down to parents. Snobs exist in non fee paying schools aswell you know.

stovelid

I've no particular problem with the existence of private schools, although at heart, I would love to see educational underacheivement and disruption tackled rather than seeing children from prosperous, stable and educated backgrounds having to flee the state system.

I went to a shit school, and there is no way I'd send my kid there. I would not, however, opt for private school either. I'd would hope that home influence and a public school with no obvious social problems would be enough.

As well as that, I knew plenty of people from schools like Gonzaga when I was university and all but a few were very decent lads by and large. Sure some had the thing where they had a certain lack of knowledge of less privileged parts of life which was amusing, but people don't chose their background and at that age, you only know your own. An idiot is an idiot regardless of their class.

That said, any school that is not financially accessible by everybody in the country should obviously not receive a penny from the public purse.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

That's nothing to do with them going to private school though. It has everything to do with them being raised with a snobby attitude and that is down to parents. Snobs exist in non fee paying schools aswell you know.

I don't agree. I think the school environment and attitude of other kids has a lot more to do with it than what they parents teach. I know a good few people who developed snobby attitudes at private school, when their parents had not raised them to be like that. Kids generally act like their peers, not their parents.

Thirdfox

Most people I've met at private school were very nice and dedicated to working (we had a few that were going directly into daddy's company and didn't care a toss about the leaving cert.)

I've been to 9 schools, my parents wanted the best for me and we went from poor students living in council housing to living a nice (upper)middle class life now. I can see from the schools that my parents sent me to that every subsequent one had students who were more determined, more believing that they are important and will achieve important things in life.

As many people stated, attitude is a big part of why I would send someone to private school. There you are generally surrounded by people who have self-belief and a determination to achieve and succeed. Positive energy feeding off one another. Contrasting that to a school I was in before, where a student was arrested by the Gardai for brandishing a knife on a Tesco employee...

Not that there aren't fantastic public schools in Ireland, I'll make my choice when the time comes by looking at all the schools available. But perhaps it can be summarised as such:

There aren't many bad private schools. But there are some public schools where (due to a multitude of circumstances) my child will not get the best education environment for him or her.

recessionproof

Personal experiences, bearing the soul if you will.

Went to public school for 5 years of sheer hell, incompetent and almost liberate morons not making an effort and happy to kill time in their cushy public sector jobs. One or two pets were selected and the rest left to rot.

Leaving cert results 1c (hons) - which I was told I wasn't allowed sit by the teacher (wanker) and 5 ds (ord). Total 90 points

This motivated me no end. I left school as normal and I worked in the most disgusting, degrading and difficult jobs that would have me, I worked as many hours as I could for the year and I saved like a miser.

The next academic year after taking the previous year to earn the fees and money for books etc. I (it was a mission and a half to get them to take me seriously) was accepted to the Institute of Education.

After the first day I went home with tears in my eyes, why? because I never knew that that level of education existed. I dreamed that it did, but I never truly believed it. They gave a ****, knew how to point you in the right direction and motivate you.

They worked me hard, I put in long nights and weekends of study and it paid off big time.

Leaving cert results this time 3 a1s, 1 a2 and 2 b1s all hons. Total 560 points.

That is the difference between public and private schools.

I will sum it up in one word - opportunity.

Jev/N

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

don't know about elitist but 16K a year for school is f*cking insane

Not really bothered reading the thread but you're getting accommodation and food on top of that if you didn't know?

Aside from that, I still think a boarder for 1 year is much less - IIRC, the most expensive a few years ago was around the €7,500 mark. That figure is definitely for 3 students

Also, Institute of Education is in a league of it's own - it's a grinds school in fairness, ditto with Yeats in Galway

IvyTheTerrible

There seems to be an attitude in this thread that a child can't get a good education in a public school, which is just ridiculous.

I went to a public school, and most of my friends in uni (in a reasonably high points course) came from public schools. Most of us are doing really well (in fact the only "drop outs" are the 2 lads that came from private school, but of course I'm not saying that's the reason).

IvyTheTerrible

recessionproof wrote: »

Personal experiences, bearing the soul if you will.

Went to public school for 5 years of sheer hell, incompetent and almost liberate morons not making an effort and happy to kill time in their cushy public sector jobs. One or two pets were selected and the rest left to rot.

Leaving cert results 1c (hons) - which I was told I wasn't allowed sit by the teacher (wanker) and 5 ds (ord). Total 90 points

This motivated me no end. I left school as normal and I worked in the most disgusting, degrading and difficult jobs that would have me, I worked as many hours as I could for the year and I saved like a miser.

The next academic year after taking the previous year to earn the fees and money for books etc. I (it was a mission and a half to get them to take me seriously) was accepted to the Institute of Education.

After the first day I went home with tears in my eyes, why? because I never knew that that level of education existed. I dreamed that it did, but I never truly believed it. They gave a ****, knew how to point you in the right direction and motivate you.

They worked me hard, I put in long nights and weekends of study and it paid off big time.

Leaving cert results this time 3 a1s, 1 a2 and 2 b1s all hons. Total 560 points.

That is the difference between public and private schools.

I will sum it up in one word - opportunity.

Maybe you could sum it up with another word? Maturity?
You went back when you were older, and after working crappy jobs, you were primed to appreciate your education.

Jev/N

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

There seems to be an attitude in this thread that a child can't get a good education in a public school, which is just ridiculous.

I went to a public school, and most of my friends in uni (in a reasonably high points course) came from public schools. Most of us are doing really well (in fact the only "drop outs" are the 2 lads that came from private school, but of course I'm not saying that's the reason).

X2 on this, went to both a public and a private school, did my LC in a normal small town CBS and scored high - it's down to aptitude, work ethic and maturity at the end of the day IMO

recessionproof

I could use a whole thesaurus of words to sum it up if you would like.

Was I more mature? obviously I was, otherwise I would have settled for a life of drudgery and economic slavery.

I worked for a sole purpose – to give myself a chance at life which If I accepted the opinion of failed people I never would have had.

The point I am attempting to articulate is that I could not receive an adequate education in the school into which I was thrust.

I had to lose 2 years of my life to make up for the failings of a system that cares more for crowd control than directing its students to be the best that they individually can be.

Think about that, 2 years lost earning potential; I have calculated that (very conservatively) at over €40,000 in lost income.

Did I fail to mention that public school was hell, if I didn't start my own business I would have had an excellent shot at a mma career it was that rough.

The one and only good thing that came from it was that I had to learn how to fight ruthlessly to survive, that transferred seamlessly to the world of business.

If I am fortunate enough to one day have a happy and healthy baby I will without a shadow of a doubt send him or her to be educated intellectually, academically and spiritually so that he or she can extract the very most that life has to offer

That will not be in a public school.

I do know that not all public schools are bad and that not all private schools are good. It is down to the individual to use the opportunities provided to them effectively and wisely.

These opportunities occur in far higher proportions in private schools as opposed to public schools.

That might not be what you want to hear but that doesn’t alter that fact that if you want to truly succeed you are best served by going to a private school.

I am proof that there is a significant difference.

Jev/N

recessionproof wrote: »

That might not be what you want to hear but that doesn’t alter that fact that if you want to truly succeed you are best served by going to a private school.

I will reiterate again; there is a difference between a private school and a grinds school, the latter being what you attended

Thirdfox

My father said to me it was when my English teacher (in public school) said to him "but a B is already really good" that he decided to send me onto a school which has the attitude of "he can achieve an A, and we'll help him to do so".

recessionproof

Jev/N wrote: »

I will reiterate again; there is a difference between a private school and a grinds school, the latter being what you attended

Ah, a mind full of lemons.

Grind Schools (as you so eloquently put it) do not exist in the eyes of the Department of Education.

Let me simplify it for you.

Public = no fees but an obligatory donation

Private = fees

Grind Schools = fees

Fees = Private

therefore Grind Schools = Private

Private ≠ Public


If focusing on results and college entry constitutes a grind school well I suppose I was in one, it did a whole lot more that that though.

In conclusion, it worked for me.

As a result of that decision I was in a position to enter UCD and study commerce thus learning the skills which have paved the way to my subsequent success.

I am now content to take the numerous opportunities which present themselves.

My contribution to this thread has concluded.

Whatever decisions people make I wish them success. It’s still a free country, at least until Lisbon is passed by the passive plebs.

ProperDeadly

ascanbe wrote: »

I have no problem with the existence of private schools but they should not be subsidised by the state.
If parents feel the mainstream school system is not good enough for their kids then they have every right to shell out for private education; but they should have to hire and pay for the staff.
By paying the salaries of the teachers etc. the government is helping to foster a two tier system.

OK, so you suggest that teacher's salaries in private schools should be paid by the fees, as opposed to the Dept of Education. For this to happen, it would be inevitable that the fees in schools would rise dramatically, and many parents would not be able to afford them. Parents would be forced to withdraw their children from private school and place them in public schools.

Surely you can see that this would mean much more pressure on the public school system, and huge over-crowding in classes? The Dept of Education would have to hire more teachers to cope with the increased number of students, thus rendering the whole proposal pointless?