Irish times journalist says that Irish fee paying schools not elitist !!!

Dudess

stovelid wrote: »

That said, any school that is not financially accessible by everybody in the country should obviously not receive a penny from the public purse.

+1

It reminds me of wealthy people being in receipt of children's allowance.

leeroybrown

stovelid wrote: »

That said, any school that is not financially accessible by everybody in the country should obviously not receive a penny from the public purse.

I'm sure there are plenty of families out there right now who can't afford to pay for the books, heating charges and maintenance charges that the schools their children attend need to provide their education. Should that disqualify them? Unless the state plans to regulate the additional charges that parents of any school have to pay then it would be a very weak argument for them to make.

Dudess wrote: »

It reminds me of wealthy people being in receipt of children's allowance.

I put quite a bit of thought into this recently and decided that it's a void argument. If the state wants to provide a benefit to help pay for children they should provide it for all children. The taxation of income should be dealt with via income taxation not by setting arbitrary thresholds on benefits. As a non-parent I don't stand to gain or lose anything from this but I think that each child should be treated the same. If the country wasn't in such a mess (and so ideologically opposed to direct taxation) it wouldn't even be on the table for discussion.

Aard

recessionproof wrote: »

If I am fortunate enough to one day have a happy and healthy baby I will without a shadow of a doubt send him or her to be educated intellectually, academically and spiritually so that he or she can extract the very most that life has to offer

That will not be in a public school.

Not all public schools are created equal. I went to an Irish school, and it's one of the best schools in the country. It was pretty open-minded, has something like 95% of students going to university, and had a good mix of people - rich kids and poor kids alike. I got a good education there, and learnt what the real world is like while I was at it. I know that's the exception rather than the rule, not to mention the fact that gaelscoileanna are in a category of their own, but I don't think all public schools should be tarred with the one brush.

Jev/N

recessionproof wrote: »

Ah, a mind full of lemons.

Grind Schools (as you so eloquently put it) do not exist in the eyes of the Department of Education.

Let me simplify it for you.

Public = no fees but an obligatory donation

Private = fees

Grind Schools = fees

Fees = Private

therefore Grind Schools = Private

Private ≠ Public


If focusing on results and college entry constitutes a grind school well I suppose I was in one, it did a whole lot more that that though.

In conclusion, it worked for me.

As a result of that decision I was in a position to enter UCD and study commerce thus learning the skills which have paved the way to my subsequent success.

I am now content to take the numerous opportunities which present themselves.

My contribution to this thread has concluded.

Whatever decisions people make I wish them success. It’s still a free country, at least until Lisbon is passed by the passive plebs.

I'm not the Department of Education BTW so in my eyes, grinds schools are different. And thanks for the equation all the same!

You're perfectly right in saying that a grind school is something which focuses solely on college entry etc. I still believe school should be more than that.

Anyway, I wouldn't tar all public schools with the one brush - there are certainly a spectrum of quality in terms of such schools

uberwolf

stovelid wrote: »

That said, any school that is not financially accessible by everybody in the country should obviously not receive a penny from the public purse.

I don't understand why this is obvious?

surely everyone is entitled to the same basic level of education from the Government? There after if a parent chooses to supplement their tax euro with their after tax euro to provide a better environment, wider range of subjects, or whatever the attraction is why should they be penalised?

It's like saying someone with health insurance should be turned away from A&E.

spurious

Aard wrote: »

Not all public schools are created equal. I went to an Irish school, and it's one of the best schools in the country. It was pretty open-minded, has something like 95% of students going to university, and had a good mix of people - rich kids and poor kids alike. I got a good education there, and learnt what the real world is like while I was at it. I know that's the exception rather than the rule, not to mention the fact that gaelscoileanna are in a category of their own, but I don't think all public schools should be tarred with the one brush.

The Gaelscoileanna have (and always had) a highly motivated and interested parent body, which again, is the main ingredient in the success of the children, whether the school be a hole in the ditch or a building encrusted in diamonds.

Any public (or non fee-paying voluntary secondary) school where the parents are involved and interested in their child's education will have great success. For some children, this success will be going to college, for some it will be passing Foundation level.

Aard

Aard wrote: »

Not all public schools are created equal. I went to an Irish school, and it's one of the best schools in the country. It was pretty open-minded, has something like 95% of students going to university, and had a good mix of people - rich kids and poor kids alike. I got a good education there, and learnt what the real world is like while I was at it. I know that's the exception rather than the rule, not to mention the fact that gaelscoileanna are in a category of their own, but I don't think all public schools should be tarred with the one brush.

100% Agree with this, I went to public school and got a very good education. I went to an educate together primary school and a catholic secondary school. Most people from my primary school went on to do well, whereas half the kids in my husbands primary school are either dead or in prison so you definitely can't generalise. I have no doubt in my mind that there are some rubbish private schools too. I know one in particular in my area that I wouldn't send my daughter to.

I had a choice though, I could send my child to the best non fee paying school in the area which 35 kids were going into or I could choose to pay a monthly fee - as I said earlier - alot less (<50%) than what my friends pay for creche, so that my daughter could go into a class of 12 students. In the two years she was in montessori she learned to read, write and to do basic math, she can write stories all by herself and she's only just turned 5. If I had sent her to the class with 35 students I really don't think the teacher - through no fault of her own - would have been able to continue with her at the level she was at. Maybe that makes me elitist? I don't think so though because I'm just not that type of person. All I want is the best for my daughter - she is the most important thing in my life.

The fact that she knew all the kids going into her class was another big thing for me anyway, she was so happy there that I didn't see the point of moving her.

FutureTaoiseach

The Irish Times is elitist. Remember the 'Have we all gone mad' and 'A poor reflection of ourselves' headlines in the 2008 referendum and 2007 election?

Pace2008

laugh wrote: »

I would rather have the private schools than be without them, if only a few people with talent are given the environment to suceed where some scumbag isn't taking up all the teachers time with their behavior problems.

In my experience, intelligent people succeed regardless of what school they go to. It's average students who want to learn but need help grasping certain concepts that suffer from a disruptive environment.

stovelid

uberwolf wrote: »

surely everyone is entitled to the same basic level of education from the Government?

They are. A state school provides this.

If you can afford to spend thousands of euro a year to escape the state system and increase your chances of attending university, why should you be further subsidized?

It's not about basic education, which is already available. You are opting out of the free system. You can find effective instances of public education (without time restrictions) if you wish (not like public healthcare)...

As I said, it's your choice.

uberwolf wrote: »

It's like saying someone with health insurance should be turned away from A&E.

Fair point, although you'll hardly die on the street if you don't get into Clongowes.

Using the example of an A and E department of a public hospital (which is used by private and public patients) is disingenuous. A private school education would be more analogous to having an operation performed (quickly) in a private clinic.

I'm usually the last person to come out with the not with my taxes shtick. Part of living in a society is knowing your tax is needed for things you don't approve of. That said, I just don't see how private education is essential, as opposed to standard primary/secondary education, social welfare, health care, defense, etc.

Private education, for me, is a different level of 'essential' and I feel that private education is a luxury; I'm not sure it's like a health situation where you insure yourself privately because non-access to services could have far more serious implications than not getting into the right university. You can find a good public school if you try; you can be a positive parental influence. Opting for a private school - imo only - takes you into the realm of lifestyle choice, or at the very least, of luxury option.

Basically, I would like to see a situation where there were not any bad public schools, or a universal level of health-care. In the absence of this, I'm not opposing people's rights to try and make things better for themselves or their children which is why I don't oppose private options in education or health if people wish to, and can afford to, opt for them.

stovelid

stovelid wrote: »

They are. A state school provides this.

If you can afford to spend thousands of euro a year to escape the state system and increase your chances of attending university, why should you be further subsidized?

It's not about basic education, which is already available. You are opting out of the free system. You can find effective instances of public education (without time restrictions) if you wish (not like public healthcare)...

As I said, it's your choice.

Teachers in private primary schools are not paid for by the state. Just incase anyone wondered/cared!

Ollchailin

laugh wrote: »

Furthest off the mark you have ever been, nothing like a private school thread to highlight the giant chips on shoulders.

The parents are just adding to what the state are obliged to pay for everyone.

I would rather have the private schools than be without them, if only a few people with talent are given the environment to suceed where some scumbag isn't taking up all the teachers time with their behavior problems.

I said here before that I have taught in a vocational school and private school. Without doubt I encountered more students with behavioural problems in the private school than the vocational school. They were more disruptive, more opinionated, more difficult to correct and often impossible to reason with.

Lack of parental support and an absence of a clear line of acceptable behaviour was the main cause of this- and money doesn't buy that.

I accept some public school are less than satisfactory, but personally I went to an excellent all girls' Catholic secondary school and know of many more. I will always maintain that there's an certain positive atmosphere in schools, both public and private. Some have it and some don't- and money is nothing to do with this. Motivated teachers and parental co-operation are two of the main things needed to achieve this.

twinytwo

just my two cents i was in a public school for 5 years and did my leaving in a private school and i can honestly say that even if i have to sell a kidney ill never put my kids in a public school

Dudess

Wouldn't it depend on the individual school?

pikachucheeks

I don't think fee-paying schools are elitist.
I went to one, because my parents decided it was the best school in Cork to send me to and had the best facilities, not because they were trying to show off or be better than anyone else.

I hate when people get picked on because of the education they received, whether it was private or not.

seven-iron

Its the not the lads and girls who went to private colleges that view themselves as elitist but the people who didnt go that like to put them on a pedestal. I dont over estimate my own self importance and I certainly dont let what school I went to define me solely as a person. Dont let your own sense of self worth be rocked by what school I attended.
:cool:

uberwolf

Dudess wrote: »

Wouldn't it depend on the individual school?

Absolutely it would. (I'd imagine) The choice between various schools would presumably depend on the facilities, reputation, etc, etc. Paying extra provides extra facilities, typically. That probably won't always compensate for one well run school when weighed up against another. It should help though!

Dudess

uberwolf wrote: »

Absolutely it would. (I'd imagine) The choice between various schools would presumably depend on the facilities, reputation, etc, etc. Paying extra provides extra facilities, typically. That probably won't always compensate for one well run school when weighed up against another. It should help though!

You'd think so, but I know of private schools lacking in facilities... and state schools with superb facilities.
I'm sure the majority of private schools have good facilities, but it's not always a given.

pikachucheeks

Dudess wrote: »

You'd think so, but I know of private schools lacking in facilities... and state schools with superb facilities.
I'm sure the majority of private schools have good facilities, but it's not always a given.

Very true.

Sometimes, the extra money you pay isn't reflected in the standard of services the private school provides.

I don't think it matters how much the school costs, provided you're happy there and have a comfortable learning environment.

uberwolf

pikachucheeks wrote: »

I don't think it matters how much the school costs, provided you're happy there and have a comfortable learning environment.

exactly true. I don't see why people then feel that because parents contribute in excess of the state subvention, that the state subvention should be removed - none of these schools are profit making. I know plenty of public schools have their 'voluntary contrib' which is nothing of the sort.