The WC 2010 playoff draw WILL be seeded.

podge018

Ah stop playing the béal bocht, if they'd decided to have an open draw with 2 games to go in the groups that would be unfair on the higher seeded teams who would quite rightly expected it to follow the same format as 2006.

will1977

Tomthepost wrote: »

No i think that it is in the interest of each continent to send its best teams. This may very well lead to the 4 unseeded teams progressing from the playoffs. Seeded does not mean better! Lets agree in hoping that happens.

Seeded may not = better but but it sure as hell means seeded = advantage.

All teams are seeded at the sart of the qualifying process which I think everyone here would agree with but why when after all the games are played and we are left with 8 teams to play off, the so called bigger teams get the advantage of seeding AGAIN

It is as clear as day ( and I can't believe that some people cannot see this ) that Blatter is making this up as it goes along and the bottom line is REVENUE The bigger teams/countries generate more revenue. simple as that.

I think that this campaign has been a little different in that for as long as I can remember, more of the so called BIGGER countries are in danger of not qualifying. FIFA can do without 1 or maybe 2 of these countries to miss out but when you have the possibility of Germany, Russia, Portugal, France, Argentina etc in danger, something has to be done.

Ireland and the likes are the ones to suffer from the currupt hands of Blatter and his cronies :mad:

ShooterSF

Tomthepost wrote: »

But the arguement here is completely contradicting itself. On one hand people are claiming that FIFA are patting the old guard on the back with the seeding system but then saying Europe should have a bigger allocation of places. Surely that would be patting the old guard on the back alot more.
The other ranking system looks alot more accurate from the post but that would mean 19 teams from Europe competing. Would that be a world cup in the spirit of what it is all about?
African football has come along way and is improving all the time. Look at the amount of decent players in the premier league and accross europe.

No you are the one contradicting yourself. You suggested that the best teams should be in the World Cup as that's what seeding protects. Then it was suggested, with that in mind, more European teams should be in the world cup, yet you are against that.

ShooterSF

greendom wrote: »

But it's not an equal achievement is it? The World Cup qualifying groups contain different teams and each group has a different level of difficulty to qualify from despite seeding

The groups were tiered to make them as fair as possible. Anyway, they are not splitting the 8 teams into two pots based on some difficulty of your group system. So that point is pretty irrelevant.

Drumpot

podge018 wrote: »

were the swiss and the serbs ahead of portugal 18 months ago?

For what it's worth, I wouldn't class Portugal as a major power-house of the European game, they didn't qualify for 98, 94, or 90. Top of the middle-rung teams perhaps, but not a Germany, France, Holland, England, Spain, Italy.

Exactly . . Thank you . . Point proven . .

FIFA knew this could of happened to any of the other powerhouses over those 18 months (smaller teams getting ahead of them in the ranking system), so they held their "get out of jail" card for the bigger teams back . .

ShooterSF

podge018 wrote: »

Ah stop playing the béal bocht, if they'd decided to have an open draw with 2 games to go in the groups that would be unfair on the higher seeded teams who would quite rightly expected it to follow the same format as 2006.

(Apologies for multiple posts but I'm finding one after another I have issues with)

Regardless of the past situations, some seeded, some not, the fair thing to do at this point is an open draw. Each group has been tiered to make them as equal as possible so each second place team has achieved the same as the other. The top teams have even been given a small advantage due to the tiering nature (but it's still the best and fairest system). It would be hard necked to consider it unfair due to past set ups. It is unfair though to distinguish between two teams who have achieved the same on a pretty level playing field.

dubmick

you can't and shouldn't seed a team twice in the same qualifying tournament. It is a simple as that. That mind boggles that some people don't think this is unfair.

Tomthepost

will1977 wrote: »

Seeded may not = better but but it sure as hell means seeded = advantage.

All teams are seeded at the sart of the qualifying process which I think everyone here would agree with but why when after all the games are played and we are left with 8 teams to play off, the so called bigger teams get the advantage of seeding AGAIN

It is as clear as day ( and I can't believe that some people cannot see this ) that Blatter is making this up as it goes along and the bottom line is REVENUE The bigger teams/countries generate more revenue. simple as that.

I think that this campaign has been a little different in that for as long as I can remember, more of the so called BIGGER countries are in danger of not qualifying. FIFA can do without 1 or maybe 2 of these countries to miss out but when you have the possibility of Germany, Russia, Portugal, France, Argentina etc in danger, something has to be done.

Ireland and the likes are the ones to suffer from the currupt hands of Blatter and his cronies :mad:

As it stands the four seeded teams are France, Greece, Croatia and Russia. Four giants of the game. If Ireland can't beat 3 of the above they don't deserve to be at the world cup end of story.

Tomthepost

ShooterSF wrote: »

No you are the one contradicting yourself. You suggested that the best teams should be in the World Cup as that's what seeding protects. Then it was suggested, with that in mind, more European teams should be in the world cup, yet you are against that.

No i am consistent on this issue. I said that it is best for each continent to send its best teams but that every continent should have a decent amount of places.

Het-Field

We screwed FIFA in 2001. They wanted The Netherlands to get through. Roy Keane wouldnt stand for it ! The rest is history, simply ask Keane, Finnan and McAteer.

Hate the fact that the Goalpoasts have been shifted. It sucks as it reeks of fixing.

However, Ireland will need to get on with the job, if they get there.

lisbon_lions

This has made me sick to the pit of my stomach.

11th hour realization by Fifa that they can maximize potential revenue return by paving an easier path for the larger (fiscal) teams. Bollix if you ask me.

Its all about the merchandise, television rights and returns it would now seem. To add to that, we have an inept sheep at the healm in the FAI who is afraid to say boo to the top brass at Fifa. Bend over Delaney and take one.

I would love to see some sort of Fan Movement for the upcoming qualifiers, a visible gesture to FIFA if you will, by all the shafted countries. Cause we sure as hell wont get anything from Delaney.
Fcukin gutted.

will1977

Tomthepost wrote: »

As it stands the four seeded teams are France, Greece, Croatia and Russia. Four giants of the game. If Ireland can't beat 3 of the above they don't deserve to be at the world cup end of story.

But why should Ireland be at a disadvantage twice ?
We were seeded 3rd initially when the groups were first drawn and beat the odds by probably finishing second.

Why should the bigger teams who were seeded 1st and 2nd and underperformed over the course of a full qualifying campaign get another advantage of being seeded again when they blew their first chance already !!

It is clear that the odds are continually stacked in the bigger teams favour.

Why then dont Europe just send the top 13 officially FIFA ranked teams and be done with it !!

And while we are at it, why dont we seed the 2nd round in South Africa and maybe the quater finals and sure why not the semi finalists aswell.

Even better, why dont we have a back door system in the knock out stages in South Africa so that the TOP teams get another chance if they get knocked out !!

me-skywalker

For all the people who are saying if Ireland had performed well enough then we would deserve it. We HAVE we are UNBEATEN!! and are in the toughest most competitive group.
So anyone using that as an excuse 'blah blah, should have could have' look at the tables and results and facts again then re-evaluate it.

Boskowski

For starters I don't think its fair myself. All rules have to be crystal clear from the very start which I don't think it was.

Despite 'The Sun' apparently making a claim that the FIFA website stated the draw was not going to be seeded - I tried looking for this and I couldnt find this on the FIFA pages several weeks ago. I believe FIFA deliberately didn't state anything on that and now they do. Which is rubbish

However, you guys sound as if you were robbed of a certain World Cup participation. But the only thing this has changed is it decreased the odds to draw a weaker team for the playoffs, assuming we will get there. And it practically eliminates the chance of getting someone like Northern Ireland (although they're not in the picture right now).

But even with an unseeded draw you still might draw Germany or France or Russia. It only increased the chances of this happening. And even if you get Greece, you still need to play out of your skin (compared to the scrambling types of performances so far) to beat them. Greece probably saying the same, 'hope fvck we get Ireland'.

Lets face it, unless you have some sort of 'golden generation' team going (which we clearly don't) it's still a big ask for a small footie nation like Ireland to come out of the very strong European qualifying groups.

Thanos

Think we will have as good a chance against one of the so called stronger teams. They might see us as an easy win and not perform at the same level as they would another top team. We could catch them in the first game and then no doubt shut up shop in the second.
a 9 - 1 formation might do it :P

dubmick

04072511 wrote: »

I am emailing the FAI now inquiring why no effort has been made to stand up for us in this debacle. I suggest you all do likewise.

Good idea, post your email up here and we call all do it. Jokers just accepting it. Wouldn't want to upset the powers that be.

will1977

realcam wrote: »

For starters I don't think its fair myself. All rules have to be crystal clear from the very start which I don't think it was.

Despite 'The Sun' apparently making a claim that the FIFA website stated the draw was not going to be seeded - I tried looking for this and I couldnt find this on the FIFA pages several weeks ago. I believe FIFA deliberately didn't state anything on that and now they do. Which is rubbish

However, you guys sound as if you were robbed of a certain World Cup participation. But the only thing this has changed is it decreased the odds to draw a weaker team for the playoffs, assuming we will get there. And it practically eliminates the chance of getting someone like Northern Ireland (although they're not in the picture right now).

But even with an unseeded draw you still might draw Germany or France or Russia. It only increased the chances of this happening. And even if you get Greece, you still need to play out of your skin (compared to the scrambling types of performances so far) to beat them. Greece probably saying the same, 'hope fvck we get Ireland'.

Lets face it, unless you have some sort of 'golden generation' team going (which we clearly don't) it's still a big ask for a small footie nation like Ireland to come out of the very strong European qualifying groups.

That very well may be but all we are asking is that we get a level playing field.
If it was an open draw and we got Germany then fair enough.

joe123

I think its absolute bull**** what theyve done. As Dunphy said yesterday they have effectively moved the goalposts mid tournament. I dislike Blatter and his cronnies even more now.

Mr Alan

have they not moved the goalposts to where they were for the last tournament?

did they ever say after the last one that they were reverted to an unseeded draw.

if they are just carrying on as they usually do, we don't really have much reason to moan tbh

Pisco Sour

Mr Alan wrote: »

have they not moved the goalposts to where they were for the last tournament?

did they ever say after the last one that they were reverted to an unseeded draw.

if they are just carrying on as they usually do, we don't really have much reason to moan tbh

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/30/republic-of-ireland-italy-world-cup

"A year ago, we were told by Fifa that the play-offs would most likely not be seeded," said the Football Association of Ireland's chief executive, John Delaney. "But a couple of weeks ago, they wrote to us to say that it would now most likely be seeded. We'd have been delighted to be in the play-offs at the start of the group and we'll take what we get."

ArmaniJeanss

So it looks as if the FAI have been aware of the potential situation, and have kept on FIFA's backs about it.
So maybe the poster writing the criticism of them in the letter above should withdraw it?

Mr Alan

that also means a year ago we were told they might be seeded, in the same way as they were last time, now when they do this, we moan. i dont get it.

will1977

Mr Alan wrote: »

that also means a year ago we were told they might be seeded, in the same way as they were last time, now when they do this, we moan. i dont get it.

I dont think people are really moaning about it because they changed this or they changed that.

Its because the system as a whole is unjust, unfair, and corrupt.

Ireland were not in the postion they are now for the last tournament so why would you expect fans to "Moan" when its an issue that didn't affect us ?

Drumpot

Mr Alan wrote: »

that also means a year ago we were told they might be seeded, in the same way as they were last time, now when they do this, we moan. i dont get it.

I think your missing the point . . .

Most of us knew that FIFA would change the rules to suit the bigger teams, but its just very hard to take when Ireland has done so well to even be in contention for a playoff spot. .

Its one thing knowing you are going to get screwed, it doesnt make it much easier when the screwing is initiated ! !

will1977

Good articla in todays Indo


Thursday October 01 2009

WE live in a time where everyone must be aware of their value. And now, in case they needed reminding, the FAI have learned theirs in the harshest way possible.

The future of Irish football may hinge on World Cup qualification, but events in Rio de Janeiro on Tuesday proved that, in cold, financial terms, countries like ours are worth nothing to the competition itself.

Qualification could be worth a badly needed €10m to the FAI, but their needs are irrelevant to the powers that be.

Sepp Blatter's confirmation that the play-off draw containing the second-placed teams in the Europe Zone will be seeded in accordance with world rankings is a devastating setback for Ireland's prospects of making it to South Africa next summer.

It is impossible to avoid a cynical view of this U-turn from FIFA. Placed in a scenario where nations like France, Russia or Germany, and Portugal could end up facing each other in a direct shootout, they have taken the option which ensures they will be kept apart.

Now, these are the calibre of opposition which Ireland can expect to face in the likely event of Giovanni Trapattoni's men winding up in second spot in Group 8 after their concluding group with Italy and Montenegro on October 10 and 14.

The best case scenario is a series of results which would leave Croatia or Greece as possible opponents, but even that is far removed from the possibilities which an open draw could have thrown up. Fellow paupers like Bosnia and Slovenia would have provided eminently winnable ties, but, clearly, FIFA could do without them being there as well.

Even the language from Blatter in announcing the news was striking, speaking of the "top four in one pot and the others in another pot." The 'others,' presumably, would be better served on a desert island when the real business goes ahead next summer.

Ironically enough, the value of getting to a World Cup for Ireland is drawn in some part from the input of the nations which the world governing body desperately want to be present.

The value of making it to the finals has soared in recent years. For simply making it to the finals in Germany in 2006, each competing nation received a figure just short of €5m before kicking a ball.

FIFA attributed the sizeable rewards in no small part to the contribution of their major television rights and sponsorship partners who plough fortunes into the coffers. Countries like France and Germany are big players in this arena; either nation missing out could have catastrophic implications for the future.

This time around, it's believed the welcome gift for the 32 lucky ones who get there will be closer to €6m and that's before you consider the sizeable ancillary benefits.

For their part, the FAI have a variety of sponsorship agreements with in-built bonuses if they make it to a major finals -- Eircom and Umbro to name just two. A variety of other marketing opportunities would arise -- and then there's the bigger picture.

With Trapattoni's future secured until 2012, the friendly dates next February, March and May have to be filled. The recent Thomond Park experience illustrated that the Irish team won't pack grounds on novelty value alone -- the impetus from the build-up to a World Cup has the power to change all of that and make that period of the year profitable.

It also might help shift some of those bizarrely priced ten-year-tickets for the new Lansdowne Road which have barely made a ripple in the crippled corporate market. Throw all those factors into the mix and you're talking about a potential €10m windfall resting on the difficulty of the draw.

lucrative

Of course, the short-term flip side is that a lucrative play-off draw would be a cash cow in itself, but it pales in comparison to the long term boost which a major tournament outing could provide.

Trapattoni issued a positive bulletin from Italy upon learning the news, understandably making the argument that he wouldn't be pessimistic about our prospects if we were to land a big gun in November.

"We are obviously concentrating on the games in hand against Italy and Montenegro and we are not taking anything for granted," he said.

"But being in a tough group containing world champions Italy, we have shown that we are more than capable of making life difficult for any of Europe's big sides."

Considering his charges have arguably performed better in the tougher games during his tenure, you can see where he's coming from, but it's a thin enough silver lining on the cloud.

Football is politics, though. Delegates are worth votes and they need to be kept happy. Europe may be by far the strongest continent in terms of depth, but only 13 teams from this part of the world will be present next year.

There has been some odd restructuring elsewhere. Australia used to compete in the Oceania region, but have been redirected into the Asia zone from which they have qualified.

In their absence, the modest artisans of New Zealand cruised through the Oceania zone and their reward is a two-legged play-off with Bahrain -- fifth in the Asian region -- to book their ticket. When Bahrain and New Zealand are going head-to-head for a place in the finals, then you can see why Blatter and his buddies were keen to avoid a situation where France and Germany entered a similarly significant joust.

It's a sharp illustration of how the whole system is terribly flawed.

That's politics, though, and nobody in this country -- particularly in the corridors of the FAI -- is in any position to take a moral high ground.

After all, we may miss out on participating in the greatest show on earth, but at least we've got the Europa League Final in 2011, eh?

Sadly, that doesn't do much for the cloud either.

Maybe we should have seen it coming, but the World Cup dream has never seemed so distant.

Irish Independent

ShooterSF

Mr Alan wrote: »

have they not moved the goalposts to where they were for the last tournament?

did they ever say after the last one that they were reverted to an unseeded draw.

if they are just carrying on as they usually do, we don't really have much reason to moan tbh

Even if all that is so, I offer you 2 points.

1. The decision should have been made and made clear at the very start of the tournament. FIFA themselves have shown they were unsure what way to do the draw during the campaign. I'd expect that organisation skills from maybe the FAI but not FIFA.

2. Even if this was always the system is it not possible to believe it is un-fair system?

noodler

Words can't describe how angry I am about this.

You can't make these decisions after seeing how the groups pan out. Its just not fair.\

Why should we be handicapped twice? This is a legal issue in my mind and should be challenged.

me-skywalker

realcam wrote: »

For starters I don't think its fair myself. All rules have to be crystal clear from the very start which I don't think it was.

Despite 'The Sun' apparently making a claim that the FIFA website stated the draw was not going to be seeded - I tried looking for this and I couldnt find this on the FIFA pages several weeks ago. I believe FIFA deliberately didn't state anything on that and now they do. Which is rubbish

Have you even read the thread or jsut jumping into the middle of it? You don't seem to havea grasp of the flow of the conversation.

04072511 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/30/republic-of-ireland-italy-world-cup

"A year ago, we were told by Fifa that the play-offs would most likely not be seeded," said the Football Association of Ireland's chief executive, John Delaney. "But a couple of weeks ago, they wrote to us to say that it would now most likely be seeded. We'd have been delighted to be in the play-offs at the start of the group and we'll take what we get."

John Delaney... like he's gonna take a stand for Ireland.

Tomthepost

noodler wrote: »

Words can't describe how angry I am about this.

You can't make these decisions after seeing how the groups pan out. Its just not fair.\

Why should we be handicapped twice? This is a legal issue in my mind and should be challenged.

If people are going to get so angry about something so insignificant as this God help them when something happens them in the real world.
I think I have aired my views on it at this stage and articulated my opinions quite clearly.
Good luck to the letter writers but remember that you are

Letting the Irish players know that you think they are sh1te and this open draw is the only hope they have of getting to the World Cup. Surely Delaney and Trapp should be doing this for you!
Forgetting the seeded teams are Greece and Croatia.
Forgetting that seeding has a precedent.
Forgetting that seedings does not mean that Ireland will have to play the second leg away from home.
Forget that Ireland
threw away two wins against Bulgaria,
fluked two wins against Cyprus,
were lucky to beat Georgia twice (away on a neutral venue, surely the Italians should have got the same or better treatment).
Showed no ambition to beat the mighty Montenegro
Played their best football against a team with 10 men (thats right a match official sent off an Italian player in Italy against Ireland) and 1-0 down
Forget that with nine groups the 10th ranked team gets screwed and the 18th seeded team are blessed and by seeding play-offs this balances out
Forget the fact that I have pointed out since the outset that I feel that FIFA were unprofessional not to confirm this from the start of the qualifying campaign
Forget that it is in the interests of each continent to send its strongest teams to the finals and that is why seeding exists
Forget 11 players will line out against 11 players over 180 minutes and the better team usually wins

In my opinion the moaning here is like listening to Joe Duffy. The outrage expressed on this insignificant issue is laughable.
So laughable in fact that Im not wasting anymore time at it. (Im sure many will be glad of that:D)
If one does feel it necessary to take me up on this and reply please read everything I have said from pages back before having a go at me.
Rant over:D

Mr Magnolia

Where's Maxi when we need him?

noodler

Tomthepost wrote: »

If people are going to get so angry about something so insignificant as this God help them when something happens them in the real world.
I think I have aired my views on it at this stage and articulated my opinions quite clearly.
Good luck to the letter writers but remember that you are

Letting the Irish players know that you think they are sh1te and this open draw is the only hope they have of getting to the World Cup. Surely Delaney and Trapp should be doing this for you!
Forgetting the seeded teams are Greece and Croatia.
Forgetting that seeding has a precedent.
Forgetting that seedings does not mean that Ireland will have to play the second leg away from home.
Forget that Ireland
threw away two wins against Bulgaria,
fluked two wins against Cyprus,
were lucky to beat Georgia twice (away on a neutral venue, surely the Italians should have got the same or better treatment).
Showed no ambition to beat the mighty Montenegro
Played their best football against a team with 10 men (thats right a match official sent off an Italian player in Italy against Ireland) and 1-0 down
Forget that with nine groups the 10th ranked team gets screwed and the 18th seeded team are blessed and by seeding play-offs this balances out
Forget the fact that I have pointed out since the outset that I feel that FIFA were unprofessional not to confirm this from the start of the qualifying campaign
Forget that it is in the interests of each continent to send its strongest teams to the finals and that is why seeding exists
Forget 11 players will line out against 11 players over 180 minutes and the better team usually wins

In my opinion the moaning here is like listening to Joe Duffy. The outrage expressed on this insignificant issue is laughable.
So laughable in fact that Im not wasting anymore time at it. (Im sure many will be glad of that:D)
If one does feel it necessary to take me up on this and reply please read everything I have said from pages back before having a go at me.
Rant over:D

Take your awful, irrelevant arguments elsewhere then.

Bringing up a team's tactics and style in actually reaching these play-offs is the most irrelevant thing I have ever read.

EDIT: Honestly, are you actually serious? Just about every one of your 'points' has nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed. Do make that post your last one on the subject please.

dubmick

noodler wrote: »

Take your awful, irrelevant arguments elsewhere then.

Bringing up a team's tactics and style in actually reaching these play-offs is the most irrelevant thing I have ever read.

EDIT: Honestly, are you actually serious? Just about every one of your 'points' has nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed. Do make that post your last one on the subject please.

+1

will1977

noodler wrote: »

Take your awful, irrelevant arguments elsewhere then.

Bringing up a team's tactics and style in actually reaching these play-offs is the most irrelevant thing I have ever read.

EDIT: Honestly, are you actually serious? Just about every one of your 'points' has nothing to do with the actual issue being discussed. Do make that post your last one on the subject please.

This

lisbon_lions

Tomthepost wrote: »

If people are going to get so angry about something so insignificant as this God help them when something happens them in the real world.

Sorry tom, but this is football. This is our country. This is the chance to make our new Italia 90 or US 94, a chance to restore some pride in our colours. This is one of lifes great great passions that I for one feel very strongly about.

Granted it might not be up there with my health and family, but it does stir the emotions when we see our country on the greatest games greatest stage. And for that shower in FIFA to change the rules when it suits is devastating on the smaller lesser countries. Take it from someone who cares, this is significant.

me-skywalker

Wow Tom you've succedded in bring home the arguement with your irrelevant rant. That you are correct it in your analysis but guess what... we still ahvea chance to qualify.. But this issue has nothing to do with the teams performance and results against other teams but guess what... it has everythign to do with France,Germany performance and results.

So dont come in here questioning my(our) committment to the Irish players adn Irish team. I love supporting and following Ireland and go to all home mathces and passionatly make excuses for weak players and systems but this is a complete farce by FIFA its a commercial political muscle power and ONLY benifits the bigger nations giving them the higher seedings AGAIN and forcing the 'weaker' teams who might have actually out-performed their counterparts to be placed lower seeding again.

Iago

Telling users not to post or to post elsewhere is against the forum charter as per the below.

If you have a problem with a post then report it if there is something in it against the charter and either argue intelligently against it or ignore the user if there isn't.

Forum Charter wrote:

Policy on Back-Seat Modding

---

If you believe a post is in breach of the charter then you should report it, and move on. If you engage the poster on his/her breach of the charter you risk infraction for back-seat modding.

Examples of back-seat modding include:

Calling someone a troll
Telling a poster not to post in a thread, or they should post elsewhere
Telling a poster you have reported their post (effectively accusing them of a breach of the charter)
Commenting on a breach of charter

This list is not exhaustive, and mod discretion may be applied in cases where the intent is judged to be helpful (for example, telling another user they should use spoiler tags for score updates, and showing them how to do so).

The rule of thumb should always be to leave moderation to the mods.

noodler

Iago wrote: »

Telling users not to post or to post elsewhere is against the forum charter as per the below.

If you have a problem with a post then report it if there is something in it against the charter and either argue intelligently against it or ignore the user if there isn't.

In fairness, the poster did say it would be his last post on the subject.

I was merely agreeing with his sentiments.

Iago

noodler wrote: »

In fairness, the poster did say it would be his last post on the subject.

I was merely agreeing with his sentiments.

In fairness, you also told him to post elsewhere and agreeing with sentiments or not it's still against the charter.

I'd prefer if this thread got back on track now, so if you'd like to continue this conversation please take it to PM.

me-skywalker

Iago wrote: »

I'd prefer if this thread got back on track now,

Okay back on track,

FIFA = BAD! Protecting the power states.
Seedings = Necessary Evil
BUT Seedings after a group has been determined based on world ranking points = corruptable protectionism on the teams higher up the rankings.
Tomthepost = Oblivious to the perception of large commercialism driving sporting institutes and competition.

Tom can I ask you a question? Imagine next June in Cape Town there is a match on thats not sold out, Honduras Vrs Slovenia, 'Wow what a game, its not sold? Ill go to that!' OR Honduras Vrs France.... now Tom tell me which playoff system makes this outcome happen? The Fair and usual one? or The mickey mouse protectistic one?

stovelid

I'm not being devil's advocate here, but would you agree that most of us explicitly endorse the model of trying to ensure that the more commericially attractive teams qualify for tournaments when it's in stuff like the Champion's League?

The fact is that we (including me) happen to support an international team that the majority of the world would rather not see qualify at the expense of a country like France, or even Russia and Croatia.

Just like they would rather never see the scenraio of United, Madrid, Liverpool and Chelsea somehow ending up in a Champion's League qualifying group and dumping each other out.

Honestly not trying to stir it, but isn't this seeding affair the logcial conclusion of a commerical football policy a lot of us have happily endorsed 99% of the time?

Why should it suddenly be different and evil just because we happen to be one of the minnows in this instance?

me-skywalker

stovelid wrote: »

I'm not being devil's advocate here, but would you agree that most of us explicitly endorse the model of trying to ensure that the more commericially attractive teams qualify for tournaments when it's in stuff like the Champion's League?

I dont!!

No I explicitly endorse a sport that rewards teams for their achievements and results. By being true to the values of fair play and the guaranteed commitment that any team, small or big can achieve the dream of World Cup Qualification/Champions League with the rules and systems in place and not try to hinder their progress on one hand and with the other hand pat them on the back and say 'well done for trying, you were so close, maybe next time!'

stovelid

me-skywalker wrote: »

I dont!!
'

Not saying I do.

I'm in favour of straight knock out ties in European Cups. Ditto straight out-of-the-hat play-offs.

I just mean that there seems to be a curious disparity for a lot of people between the acceptance of cosetting the bigger, attractive teams through at club level (CL, proposed Euro mega-league) and the experience of being an Ireland supporter, that is, one of the smaller, less attractive teams.

podge018

I wish people would stop saying this is a U-turn. It was never set to be an open draw.

therecklessone

stovelid wrote: »

I'm not being devil's advocate here, but would you agree that most of us explicitly endorse the model of trying to ensure that the more commericially attractive teams qualify for tournaments when it's in stuff like the Champion's League?

The fact is that we (including me) happen to support an international team that the majority of the world would rather not see qualify at the expense of a country like France, or even Russia and Croatia.

Just like they would rather never see the scenraio of United, Madrid, Liverpool and Chelsea somehow ending up in a Champion's League qualifying group and dumping each other out.

Honestly not trying to stir it, but isn't this seeding affair the logcial conclusion of a commerical football policy a lot of us have happily endorsed 99% of the time?

Why should it suddenly be different and evil just because we happen to be one of the minnows in this instance?

Excellent point.

We reap what we sow.

dubmick

I disagree, United, Chelsea etc. get seeded at the start of the Champions League draw. After the group stage it's based on where they finished in the group for the 2nd round.

GLaDOS

stovelid wrote: »

I'm not being devil's advocate here, but would you agree that most of us explicitly endorse the model of trying to ensure that the more commericially attractive teams qualify for tournaments when it's in stuff like the Champion's League?

The fact is that we (including me) happen to support an international team that the majority of the world would rather not see qualify at the expense of a country like France, or even Russia and Croatia.

Just like they would rather never see the scenraio of United, Madrid, Liverpool and Chelsea somehow ending up in a Champion's League qualifying group and dumping each other out.

Honestly not trying to stir it, but isn't this seeding affair the logcial conclusion of a commerical football policy a lot of us have happily endorsed 99% of the time?

Why should it suddenly be different and evil just because we happen to be one of the minnows in this instance?

That seeding is done at the start of the competition though, after that rank does not matter. If you finish top of your group you are rewarded by getting to play a second place side, regardless of what seed you are.

Idbatterim

i wouldnt take it that because we will be playing one of the bigger nations that we dont have a chance, the state of international football now id very weak. As frustrating as it is, Ireland over the last few capmpaigns have been massive over achievers, if we had the population, leagues, coaches of some of the other play off teams, anything other than winning every match on the way towards qualification would probably be seen as a let down!

me-skywalker

I wouldnt say the state of International football is weak... I would say that it is getting more competitive and the so called smaller nations and now making leaps and bounds in bridging the gap in quality of talent and tactical awareness.

Ireland are in a flux, we are neither here nor there, expected to beat the lesser teams but only hopeful of a draw against the big teams. Im honest enough and well aware of what we have at our disposal I would say our current ranking in the world, 37th is probably right give or take a few places.

Edit: I would say 30th is more our position
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html

stovelid

ScienceNerd wrote: »

That seeding is done at the start of the competition though, after that rank does not matter. If you finish top of your group you are rewarded by getting to play a second place side, regardless of what seed you are.

I just meant that the 'pots' system, with the top coefficient clubs being in Pots 1 and 2, is obviously engineered toward the really top (attractive) clubs getting safely out of the groups and into the knock-out stages.

I know that the other pots throw out tough enough teams too. And that you can still get fairly tough groups, but it is designed so that the really big draws, by and large, survive the groups.

Sorry for going off-topic anyway. I meant to leave it at the original statement, and am not trying to steer away from the original topic.

Kirby

Nobody is denying that seeding top teams is a good idea. It is. But the rules of a competition should be set out the outset. What they did here, was wait and see how the groups would turn out and then decide on the "best" method be it open or seeded.

Why bother holding the tourney at all with this sort of attitude? Qualification is a bit of a farse when they can decide on the rules halfway through to suit the big teams. The big teams already had their edge by being seeded for the drawing of the groups. They shouldn't get ANOTHER bonus just because so many big names ****ed up and didnt qualify automatically.