The WC 2010 playoff draw WILL be seeded.

Pisco Sour

stovelid wrote: »

I just meant that the 'pots' system, with the top coefficient clubs being in Pots 1 and 2, is obviously engineered toward the really top (attractive) clubs getting safely out of the groups and into the knock-out stages.

I know that the other pots throw out tough enough teams too. And that you can still get fairly tough groups, but it is designed so that the really big draws, by and large, survive the groups.

Sorry for going off-topic anyway. I meant to leave it at the original statement, and am not trying to steer away from the original topic.

This is fine. Its no different to seeding the group stages of the World Cup qualification. Teams get rewarded for past performances.

Playoffs is different, and shouldnt be seeded for the reasons given about 100 times in this thread.

stovelid

04072511 wrote: »

Playoffs is different, and shouldnt be seeded for the reasons given about 100 times in this thread.

You might note that I wasn't directly comparing the CL and play-offs. I said that it was ironic that people who supported seeding in football competition when it suits them may well have provided some of the 'customer justification' for it elsewhere.

I only said it about 3 times, not 100. Perhaps that's why you misunderstood.

Boskowski

me-skywalker wrote: »

Have you even read the thread or jsut jumping into the middle of it? You don't seem to havea grasp of the flow of the conversation.

I have read a bit but I wasn't aware there was much of a 'flow of conversation' tbh. It seemed more or less a random mass of short rants. And you know what people sometimes just do that, jumping into the middle of it. As it happens, the vast majority on this thread seemed to have done just that.

Relax. What did I do to you, eh?

Boskowski

Idbatterim wrote: »

if we had the population, leagues, coaches of some of the other play off teams, anything other than winning every match on the way towards qualification would probably be seen as a let down!

Basically what you're saying is - 'if we weren't who we are, we'd be great' <scratches head>

Pisco Sour

stovelid wrote: »

You might note that I wasn't directly comparing the CL and play-offs. I said that it was ironic that people who supported seeding in football competition when it suits them may well have provided some of the 'customer justification' for it elsewhere.

I only said it about 3 times, not 100. Perhaps that's why you misunderstood.

Nobody has a problem with the seeding in the Champions League because it is FAIR, just as the original seeding at the start of the World Cup Qualifiers is also FAIR. In both instances teams are being rewarded for past performances.

Seeding playoffs however is not fair, as all teams have achieved the same thing to get there and therefore nobody should be given an advantage.

The 100 times thing wasnt to do with you. I was just too lazy to explain as the reasons for why this is unfair have been mentioned about 100 times on this thread so I didnt feel it was necessary for me to say why again. But i seem to have caused confusion with that.

Boskowski

Kirby wrote: »

They shouldn't get ANOTHER bonus just because so many big names ****ed up and didnt qualify automatically.

I totally agree with you. But I don't think so many big names screwed up.
Maybe Portugal, but hefty enough group with Sweden and Denmark.
Czech Republic possibly.
Wouldn't necessarily call France a big name, but they sure screwed up.
Germany has been mentioned a lot but is actually on top of their group. Russia is winning everything too, only reason why Germany wasn't able to pull away.
So pretty standard what the group standings look like atm.

Pisco Sour

realcam wrote: »

I totally agree with you. But I don't think so many big names screwed up.
Maybe Portugal, but hefty enough group with Sweden and Denmark.
Czech Republic possibly.
Wouldn't necessarily call France a big name, but they sure screwed up.
Germany has been mentioned a lot but is actually on top of their group. Russia is winning everything too, only reason why Germany wasn't able to pull away.
So pretty standard what the group standings look like atm.

World Cup Winners 1998
European Champions 2000
World Cup Finalists 2006

therecklessone

04072511 wrote: »

Seeding playoffs however is not fair, as all teams have achieved the same thing to get there and therefore nobody should be given an advantage.

So I take it you would favour an open draw for the Finals, seeing as every team will have achieved the same thing to get there? Or will it be ok to seed teams then, based on past performance?

Speaking of past performance, how did Wolfsburg automatically qualify for the CL group stages in their first ever appearance in the competition, but Copenhagen had to go into the 2nd qualifying round? Both teams won their respective national leagues, and Copenhagen were ranked 20 places above Wolfsburg in the UEFA coefficients listing.

Stovelid's point is solid, the same commercial concerns that allow 3rd and 4th placed sides compete in the group stages of the CL at the expense of lower ranked national champions is responsible for this decision on the playoffs. You are welcome to read back over previous discussions on this forum about the development of the CL group stages, you will see plenty of complaints that the competition is being watered down by lesser sides at the expense of "quality"

Pisco Sour

therecklessone wrote: »

So I take it you would favour an open draw for the Finals, seeing as every team will have achieved the same thing to get there? Or will it be ok to seed teams then, based on past performance?

Speaking of past performance, how did Wolfsburg automatically qualify for the CL group stages in their first ever appearance in the competition, but Copenhagen had to go into the 2nd qualifying round? Both teams won their respective national leagues, and Copenhagen were ranked 20 places above Wolfsburg in the UEFA coefficients listing.

Stovelid's point is solid, the same commercial concerns that allow 3rd and 4th placed sides compete in the group stages of the CL at the expense of lower ranked national champions is responsible for this decision on the playoffs. You are welcome to read back over previous discussions on this forum about the development of the CL group stages, you will see plenty of complaints that the competition is being watered down by lesser sides at the expense of "quality"

I agree, I have no time for the champions league and if I had my way it would be champions only and an open draw (and a salary cap and a 6+5 rule, I've a LOT of issues with club football).

But nobody would disagree that Man Utd be seeded due to winning one of the top leagues and being runners up in Europe last year. They achieved more than the rest (bar barca) last year and deserve to be rewarded for this.

Seeding France on the otherhand is not fair as they have come 2nd in a group that is roughly of the same quality as the other 8 groups and so have achieved nothing better or worse than the other teams and so shouldnt be given preferential treatment.

ArmaniJeanss

therecklessone wrote: »

So I take it you would favour an open draw for the Finals, seeing as every team will have achieved the same thing to get there? Or will it be ok to seed teams then, based on past performance?

Ironically enough there is usually minimal seeding at the actual finals. There'll be the top 8 seeds (SouthAfrica, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina (if they get there) + 3 other European teams) and that'll be it for performance based seeding.

Every else is done regionally - the other 8 European teams will be in potB, the 5 African qualifiers + probably the 3 Concacaf teams in PotC etc.

So it actually is quite an open draw for the finals.

Boskowski

04072511 wrote: »

World Cup Winners 1998
European Champions 2000
World Cup Finalists 2006

Ye, you're right, dawned on my the moment I pressed the 'submit' button.

stovelid

04072511 wrote: »

Seeding France on the otherhand is not fair as they have come 2nd in a group that is roughly of the same quality as the other 8 groups and so have achieved nothing better or worse than the other teams and so shouldnt be given preferential treatment.

I too said earlier that I favour straight duke-outs (between champions) in the Champions League and indeed that all teams should just be drawn out openly for play-offs.

I think we're in agreement here.

My point was that a lot of people here who would normally support seed bias toward commercially attractive teams are miffed because in this one single case, we are one of the minnow parties getting the rough end.

Basically what is being done re: the play-offs is in keeping with the commercial model of major football competitions: a model that is mostly greeted with rapture when it means we are all guaranteed our Manu/Liverpool/Madrid-fests every year, but in this specific case, Ireland is the international version of one of those teams that the majority of people secretly wish won't progress at the expense of a Madrid or United.

noodler

You can't make your point without a direct CL comparison Stovelid - pointless IMO to keep saying you aren't trying to do so.

If the CL rules for the draw for the last 16 were not confirmed (or changed as Delaney seems to imply) after the groups had been settled then your point would make sense. Its far too vague to chalk this off as another aspect of football's commericalistic nature.

Pisco Sour

Reading a forum on this on xtratime.org and theres just as much uproar there. I even read a croatian (who is set to benefit from this) give out about the unfairness of it all.

There is one c**k from Argentina who seems to be defending it as he wants to see the big teams there hmmmmm

PHB

What pisses me off most about this, is not that they are imposing it after the qualification has started, which is utterly bull****, its the fact that they think the FIFA rankings are in any way accurate. They are a load of ****e.

If you want to seed the draws, it should be based on the points total the team has gotten so far in his group games. That makes sense and is current. The FIFA rankings are just a load of ****.

rovingrover

podge018 wrote: »

I wish people would stop saying this is a U-turn. It was never set to be an open draw.

Wrong it was confirmed to the FAI by FIFA and was on the FIFA website.

They took down the document confirming the open draw approx 6 weeks ago which started the concern.

ArmaniJeanss

rovingrover wrote: »

Wrong it was confirmed to the FAI by FIFA and was on the FIFA website.

They took down the document confirming the open draw approx 6 weeks ago which started the concern.

Both of the above are false.
The FAI have only said that it was 'indicated' to them that it was an open draw.
And the rumours of the document being on the FIFA website seem to be false/malicious rumours - someone would have actually come up with the document by now if it was true.
Some media (the sun in particular) seem to equate the fact that the FIFA web site never mentioned seeding as being the same as the FIFA website specifically ruling it out. Not the same thing, neither method was ever confirmed.

speedboatchase

Russia/Germany and France would absolutely spank us. But surely we'd have a fair chance against Croatia, or at the very least Greece?

rovingrover

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Both of the above are false.
The FAI have only said that it was 'indicated' to them that it was an open draw.
And the rumours of the document being on the FIFA website seem to be false/malicious rumours - someone would have actually come up with the document by now if it was true.
Some media (the sun in particular) seem to equate the fact that the FIFA web site never mentioned seeding as being the same as the FIFA website specifically ruling it out. Not the same thing, neither method was ever confirmed.

I thought Paul Lennon had the document in the Star.

I think you are playing with words here. So FIFA indicated all along it was an open draw, indicated it on their website, suddenly pulled the document. Then no comment and now we have a draw based on the FIFA rankings and even then it is not clear which rankings will be used.

This is a disgraceful attempt to get the big countries to South Africa.

briany

I don't suppose anyone would be able to source a copy of the playoff rules document as it appeared say, six months ago? I tried to find it on the internet archive but of course no luck there.

podge018

NO!

There was no document on the FIFA website indicating an open draw. It just said the draw would be 4 v 4 home and away legs. No mention of the words 'open' or 'seeded'.

will1977

someone posted this petition on another forum if anyones interested

http://www.petitiononline.com/FIFA1234/petition.html

Tomthepost

There has been much debate on other threads about FIFA's decision to seed the World Cup Play-Off's. Alot of people seem to see it as an attempt to shaft Ireland and ensure that they don't qualify.
Ireland may have a population of just 4 million but surely if FIFA wanted to hand pick 13 European countries on a commercial basis to take part in the finals Ireland would be one of the 13.
Ireland have a reputation for sending alot of fans to the finals when they do qualify and thus it is unlikely that games involving Ireland would be played in front of half empty stadiums.
The country may be in a recession but so is most of the world and besides the country was even in a poorer state in 1990 at a tournament when the amount of Ireland fans that travelled was the talk of the competition.
Ireland have ex-pats all over the world and thus when Ireland qualify for finals it is not just in the country itself that stirs interest but across the world.
Ireland are also popular amongst neutrals and most British football fans for instance will support Ireland in the tournament and watch their games.
Again despite the economic downturn Ireland are now considered a rich country and I would imagine to secure broadcast rights RTE pay top dollar on a cost per head basis compared to many other European countries as the majority of the sports mad Irish population will tune into the games.
I think people should not take the seeding decision as something against 'little old Ireland' we no longer are 'little old Ireland' and hopefully will never again be.
If the Irish players end up in the play-offs and take to the field with the deflated attitude expressed by some people here in other threads they would be beaten before a ball is kicked.
FIFA messed up no doubt about that as this decision should have been announced at the outset of the qualification but Ireland can qualify and the seeded teams as it stands other than France are certainly not the powers of world football.
Trapp, Delaney and the players are right to make nothing of this decision and instead show confidence that we can qualify whatever is thrown at us. This is Ireland and the Irish confident attitude of 2009 not the poor mouth attitude of 1979.

Paleface

Just because Ireland has become a wealthier nation it doesn't mean a whole lot on the world football stage.

Countries like France, Germany, Portugal and Russia have much larger populations, hence more people will watch the tournament and this is important to sponsors with regard to advertising, merchandising etc. Its not just the tournament in SA that generates money.

I know you mentioned the tv rights deal but there is no way RTE's tv rights deal would be worth as much to FIFA as say Germany's.

Tomthepost

Paleface wrote: »

Just because Ireland has become a wealthier nation it doesn't mean a whole lot on the world football stage.

Countries like France, Germany, Portugal and Russia have much larger populations, hence more people will watch the tournament and this is important to sponsors with regard to advertising, merchandising etc. Its not just the tournament in SA that generates money.

I know you mentioned the tv rights deal but there is no way RTE's tv rights deal would be worth as much to FIFA as say Germany's.

If you read my post properly you will see I am merely claiming that Ireland would be one of the 13 that FIFA would want if every decision was made on a commercial basis.
Consumer spending in Ireland on qualification would quite possible be higher as a percentage than any other country in the world.

Chardee MacDennis

Tomthepost wrote: »

If you read my post properly you will see I am merely claiming that Ireland would be one of the 13 that FIFA would want if every decision was made on a commercial basis.
Consumer spending in Ireland on qualification would quite possible be higher as a percentage than any other country in the world.

who cares about per capita spending, its the euro/dollars/sterling that matters

Paleface

But FIFA can't handpick 13 countries.

Thats why we are in this situation.

The top country of each group qualify automatically. Unfortunately in FIFA's eyes some of these countries are not meeting their criteria and now they are changing the rules in the hope that more of the countries that do will qualify!

CHD

They want a country full of milions of people turning on TV's, not in stadiums.

Tomthepost

BastardPrince wrote: »

who cares about per capita spending, its the euro/dollars/sterling that matters

And that is where the ex-pat factor, numbers going to the tournament and general outside interest in how Ireland do comes into play.
International TV ratings for Ireland games is quite decent.

Tomthepost

Paleface wrote: »

But FIFA can't handpick 13 countries.

Thats why we are in this situation.

The top country of each group qualify automatically. Unfortunately in FIFA's eyes some of these countries are not meeting their criteria and now they are changing the rules in the hope that more of the countries that do will qualify!

They also can't decide who will actually finish second. If it was a complete and utter conspiracy they could have waited a few weeks to see how things panned out.

missingtime

Paleface wrote: »

Just because Ireland has become a wealthier nation it doesn't mean a whole lot on the world football stage.

Eh....

Paleface

Tomthepost wrote: »

They also can't decide who will actually finish second. If it was a complete and utter conspiracy they could have waited a few weeks to see how things panned out.

As bad as it is that they changing it now, it would look even worse if they did it at the end of the qualifying stages.

By doing it now they are using the "everyone still has a chance" scenario as a cover.

Tomthepost

Paleface wrote: »

As bad as it is that they changing it now, it would look even worse if they did it at the end of the qualifying stages.

By doing it now they are using the "everyone still has a chance" scenario as a cover.

As it stands the seeds include Croatia and Greece by the way.
Also they changed nothing it was seeded last time as well.
The everyone still has a chance scenario? Come on defend that? That is like backing a race horse. Lets guess what will happen and hope it happens!

briany

I would be in the opposed to the seeding of playoffs camp for the reasons that have been discussed ad-nauseam in other threads so I'll just leave that.

What I will say is that I do believe that FIFA would rather have Ireland and the other smaller countries out of the World Cup, I mean they've implied as much themselves, the idea is that seeding keeps the larger teams apart and helping more reach the final, preferably all of them I'd imagine.

ArmaniJeanss

I'd say Ireland would actually be in the Top 13 most desired UEFA qualifiers from FIFA and the South African organisers point of view. Definitely for the organisers, I'd say we are ahead in desirability of even the French who don't seem to travel in numbers (I was in France in 1998 and the easiest game to get tickets for was France v Paraguay in the last 16, on sale for 20 francs, €3, outside the ground).

I still think that the playoff seeding was more UEFAs decision than FIFA, though Blatter got to announce it as head of the whole shebang.
Every other Conference gets to do their qualifiers the way they want (hence the totally different ways its done in each continent) so I don't see why FIFA would get to decide how UEFA did their final 4 places. UEFA are traditionally the most independant conference, for financial reasons).
Platini etc will have been more than happy though to have Blatter announcing it as he gets the flak.
UEFA 'in theory' now get to send 4 stronger teams that if it was an open draw, which improves their chances of holding onto 13 places in 4 years time.

Paleface

Tomthepost wrote: »

As it stands the seeds include Croatia and Greece by the way.
Also they changed nothing it was seeded last time as well.
The everyone still has a chance scenario? Come on defend that? That is like backing a race horse. Lets guess what will happen and hope it happens!

What was the same last time? I'm not aware of FIFA changing anything mid qualification before.

As for the everyone still has a chance scenario they are covering themselves for a bad outcome at the end of the qualifying. No one knows how the groups will finish but you can make an educated guess at this stage.

In my opinion we will see definitely see Portugal and France in the playoffs along with one of Germany and Russia.

podge018

The last time was seeded. Like this time. They didnt change it, ever. It was never set to be an open draw this qualification. Does it have to be said on every page?

Bandit12

CHD wrote: »

They want a country full of milions of people turning on TV's, not in stadiums.

This

Johnny Utah

04072511 wrote: »

Reading a forum on this on xtratime.org and theres just as much uproar there. I even read a croatian (who is set to benefit from this) give out about the unfairness of it all.

There is one c**k from Argentina who seems to be defending it as he wants to see the big teams there hmmmmm

Maradona?

Maybe he's still counting on a play-off against New Zealand if all else fails.

greendom

04072511 wrote: »

Seeding France on the otherhand is not fair as they have come 2nd in a group that is roughly of the same quality as the other 8 groups and so have achieved nothing better or worse than the other teams and so shouldnt be given preferential treatment.

You could argue that France have over-achieved, having Domenech as manager is a massive handicap

briany

No way would they give Argentina a get out of jail card like that! It would make the uproar over our little playoff debacle seem relatively miniscule by comparison.

speedboatchase

So on Oct 16th FIFA will announce their new rankings, as it stands Greece and Croatia are higher than Portugal, who are third in their group. Portugal will most likely finish 2nd but are still 5 rankings below Greece. What are the chances FIFA has a massive swaperoo and puts them ahead of the Greeks come the 16th? There is no way they will risk France Vs Portugal or Russia-Germany vs Portugal in the playoffs

ps. Does no-one think we could knock out Greece, possibly Croatia? It's not all doom and gloom

me-skywalker

speedboatchase wrote: »

So on Oct 16th FIFA will announce their new rankings, as it stands Greece and Croatia are higher than Portugal, who are third in their group. Portugal will most likely finish 2nd but are still 5 rankings below Greece. What are the chances FIFA has a massive swaperoo and puts them ahead of the Greeks come the 16th? There is no way they will risk France Vs Portugal or Russia-Germany vs Portugal in the playoffs

ps. Does no-one think we could knock out Greece, possibly Croatia? It's not all doom and gloom

we've been through all this already... Latvia might qualify ahead of Greece and it is a great possibility as Lativa are playing Greece this sat and both have easy home games so keep an eye on that.

and if that does happen then we will be in TOP seed pot

speedboatchase

Correct me if I'm wrong though (there's 18 pages so apologies if I'm repeating what's been said), but if Portugal finish second they'll grab that spot from us? So we can only finish in the top seed pot if Latvia finish 2nd and Portugal don't?

The Rooster

speedboatchase wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong though (there's 18 pages so apologies if I'm repeating what's been said), but if Portugal finish second they'll grab that spot from us? So we can only finish in the top seed pot if Latvia finish 2nd and Portugal don't?

That's correct.

Also if Sweden do finish ahead of Portugal, we have to ensure they stay behind us in the rankings. We edge it at the moment, but its quite close.

briany

Ah the group stages! You have got to love them. All these different possibilities, permutations and consequences, perhaps one of the best things about a competition such as this.

rovingrover

speedboatchase wrote: »

So on Oct 16th FIFA will announce their new rankings, as it stands Greece and Croatia are higher than Portugal, who are third in their group. Portugal will most likely finish 2nd but are still 5 rankings below Greece. What are the chances FIFA has a massive swaperoo and puts them ahead of the Greeks come the 16th? There is no way they will risk France Vs Portugal or Russia-Germany vs Portugal in the playoffs

ps. Does no-one think we could knock out Greece, possibly Croatia? It's not all doom and gloom

Although you are correct based on the existing rankings they do not take account of the September results.

See here

http://www.football-rankings.info/2009/09/fifa-ranking-october-2009-probable_18.html

Portugal are now ahead of Greece. 2 home wins will most likely see them into the playoffs and ahead of Greece in the rankings.