Public Sector Pay. This one is 68 - 83K

murf313

jimmmy wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. Murf313, I have a constructive suggestion for you though. I do believe you when you say you are less well paid in the p.s. sector than in the private sector. Why not try to get the paid leave for up to 3 years ...some p.s. employees are getting up to 36,000 for this "career break"...and use your time in the private sector ( if its higher paid than your p.s. job , as you say it is ) , here or overseas....or would that be against the terms of the p.s. " work initiative" as one p.s. worker called it ? Or is it only for those wanting to raise kids / travel around the world ?

im in the army i cant get "3 years paid leave" i can apply for a 1 year career break without pay. i am am then not permitted to work in ireland. I then owe the army the year i took out... i suppose its good if wanted to travel or something (unfortunately i have a mortgage:() its not a perk though.

also when you use that average of 966pw you do know most people are not on that?? i personally am on nearly half of that.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Irish C.S.O. ( Central Statistics Office ) statistics on public service wages...

How about spoonfeeding us, jimmmy? I never found anything on the CSO site about Ireland's being the highest paid public service in the known world.

jimmmy

murf313 wrote: »

im in the army i cant get "3 years paid leave" i can apply for a 1 year career break without pay. i am am then not permitted to work in ireland. I then owe the army the year i took out... i suppose its good if wanted to travel or something (unfortunately i have a mortgage:() its not a perk though.

Fair enough. I though all right it did not apply to all areas of the p.s. Even for those who can get a public service career break, this new scheme does not give them full pay...its up to a max of 12000 a year I believe.
I suppose the army is different...always has been ( eg as regards unions ) ....otherwise you may get lots of people wanting a career break if a conflict broke out etc.

murf313 wrote: »

also when you use that average of 966pw you do know most people are not on that?? i personally am on nearly half of that.

I know that. Its the average pay of the 300,000 public servants....this is different to what the average public servant gets as pay.

eg the average of 4,4,5,5,5,5,5,5 and 7 is five

but if you were to pick one of those numbers at random say a hundred times, and divide it by 100, it would be less than 5. The average number is less than 5.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I never found anything on the CSO site about Ireland's being the highest paid public service in the known world.

only average p.s. wage , which is 966 per week. If they do not know average Irish public sector wage,, who does ? lol

Noboby else has found a public service in the world which has a higher wage. High p.s. wages seem to be the norm in Ireland compared to other countries , from the top down eg in another thread I gave the figures of the salary of our Central Bank head, showing him to be paid more than the head of the Central bank in UK, , The EC, the US etc.

Quote from another thread :"The role of the Central Bank is simple. The Central Bank is responsible for the management of the financial system...and should ensure the banks operate sensibly, and do not create inflation or property bubbles. Why did it stand idly by and let it happen ? Its not that the people in Dame Street, Dublin are not well paid. John Hurley, the retiring head of the Irish Central Bank, is the highest paid central banker in the world, getting € 368,703 per year. The head of the Bank of England gets € 283,564 per year, the head of the European Central bank gets € 345,252 per year and the head of the US federal reserve Bank gets € 186,600."

ardmacha

from today's Irish Times

Speaking at the Small Firms Association’s annual conference, Prof Fitzgerald said the recovery was also contingent on the Irish economy reducing its cost base.

“We need to ask ourselves if we can price ourselves back into the market rapidly . . . If we do we will see a very robust recovery by 2012, unemployment will come down gradually from 2011 onwards, and we might get back to full employment by 2015.”

He questioned whether costs had actually come down in the private sector. “In our modelling we felt that wage rates, for example, would fall by 7 per cent over two years in the private sector. However, the latest data suggests that, in spite of what people are saying, costs are not coming down significantly. They are still rising, according to CSO data.”

He said there had been a 7 per cent wage cut in the public sector, and many of his European colleagues were “staggered” this had been accepted by Irish public sector workers.

“In terms of where we go from here, it will be important that it is seen that here is some reaction from the private sector and so far the data suggests that there has been no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector . . . Until we see the data from the CSO, there cannot really be further cuts in the public sector.”

murf313

jimmmy wrote: »

Fair enough. I though all right it did not apply to all areas of the p.s. Even for those who can get a public service career break, this new scheme does not give them full pay...its up to a max of 12000 a year I believe.
I suppose the army is different...always has been ( eg as regards unions ) ....otherwise you may get lots of people wanting a career break if a conflict broke out etc.


I know that. Its the average pay of the 300,000 public servants....this is different to what the average public servant gets as pay.

eg the average of 4,4,5,5,5,5,5,5 and 7 is five

but if you were to pick one of those numbers at random say a hundred times, and divide it by 100, it would be less than 5. The average number is less than 5.

exactly... we in the defence forces have no one to fight our corner as such (with regards to unions, pdforra are not a union) we just have to do what we are told.

the point im trying to get across is that if you cut our pay by 25% (as you have been talking about) you are going to cripple a lot of people.

as i said the top earners are taking the piss, but the ordinary joe has to be left alone!

jimmmy

Who is Prof Fitzgerald / who pays him ?

What planet does he live on if he thinks "no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector ".
Wait until the tax receipts roll in to the govt. Its not as if the private sector was as well paid as the public sector to begin with ( source : ESRI report ).

Tipp Man

murf313 wrote: »

also when you use that average of 966pw you do know most people are not on that?? i personally am on nearly half of that.

Just being curious here Murf, hope you don't think i'm prying, but when you say you're only on nearly half that are you talking about take home pay, so am i correct in thinking your take home is lets say in the 450-500 bracket. Or are you saying your gross is in the 450-500 bracket??

Tipp Man

jimmmy wrote: »

only average p.s. wage , which is 966 per week. If they do not know average Irish public sector wage,, who does ? lol

Noboby else has found a public service in the world which has a higher wage. High p.s. wages seem to be the norm in Ireland compared to other countries , from the top down eg in another thread I gave the figures of the salary of our Central Bank head, showing him to be paid more than the head of the Central bank in UK, , The EC, the US etc.

Quote from another thread :"The role of the Central Bank is simple. The Central Bank is responsible for the management of the financial system...and should ensure the banks operate sensibly, and do not create inflation or property bubbles. Why did it stand idly by and let it happen ? Its not that the people in Dame Street, Dublin are not well paid. John Hurley, the retiring head of the Irish Central Bank, is the highest paid central banker in the world, getting € 368,703 per year. The head of the Bank of England gets € 283,564 per year, the head of the European Central bank gets € 345,252 per year and the head of the US federal reserve Bank gets € 186,600."

Jimmy are you sure those quotes about the central bank head are correct, is our fella really on that much cash??

I'm amazed

Tipp Man

ardmacha wrote: »

from today's Irish Times

Speaking at the Small Firms Association’s annual conference, Prof Fitzgerald said the recovery was also contingent on the Irish economy reducing its cost base.

“We need to ask ourselves if we can price ourselves back into the market rapidly . . . If we do we will see a very robust recovery by 2012, unemployment will come down gradually from 2011 onwards, and we might get back to full employment by 2015.”

He questioned whether costs had actually come down in the private sector. “In our modelling we felt that wage rates, for example, would fall by 7 per cent over two years in the private sector. However, the latest data suggests that, in spite of what people are saying, costs are not coming down significantly. They are still rising, according to CSO data.”

He said there had been a 7 per cent wage cut in the public sector, and many of his European colleagues were “staggered” this had been accepted by Irish public sector workers.

“In terms of where we go from here, it will be important that it is seen that here is some reaction from the private sector and so far the data suggests that there has been no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector . . . Until we see the data from the CSO, there cannot really be further cuts in the public sector.”

I think Prof Fitz is in cuckoo land if he thinks this economy will have a very robust recovery by 2012 and full employment by 2015. Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better, Government has to slash spending/stop borrowing/do something for the love of God, and interest rates will start to rise next year/2011 as our European counterparts startto turn into recovery, crippling nearly everyone in this country.

Personally i think we are in big trouble

ardmacha

What planet does he live on if he thinks "no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector ".

He is on planet Data Analysis rather than planet Prejudice like most of the posters here. Some parts of the private sector have had reductions, large ones in some cases, most haven't.

As for the Central Bank head, there is no doubt that he is paid more than is reasonable and it cannot even be said that he did a good job. But this logic is then extended to people who are not the best paid in the world and who are doing a job comparable with their peers internationally.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Who is Prof Fitzgerald / who pays him ?
....Its not as if the private sector was as well paid as the public sector to begin with ( source : ESRI report ).

He works for the ESRI.:D

jimmmy

Tipp Man wrote: »

Jimmy are you sure those quotes about the central bank head are correct, is our fella really on that much cash??

I'm amazed

yes. Check it out for yourself.

jimmmy

newDubliner, please do not misquote me / tinker with posts / add my words together to look as if I said something I did not.

murf313

Tipp Man wrote: »

Just being curious here Murf, hope you don't think i'm prying, but when you say you're only on nearly half that are you talking about take home pay, so am i correct in thinking your take home is lets say in the 450-500 bracket. Or are you saying your gross is in the 450-500 bracket??

just over 500e take home pay. i also am in receipt of tech pay (27pw included) as i am in a technical appointment. bear in mind most soldiers are NOT in receipt of this pay. there is also a military service allowance included in this figure to compensate for unsociable hours (so no overtime)

ardmacha

I think Prof Fitz is in cuckoo land if he thinks this economy will have a very robust recovery by 2012 and full employment by 2015. Its going to get a lot worse before it gets better, Government has to slash spending/stop borrowing/do something for the love of God, and interest rates will start to rise next year/2011 as our European counterparts startto turn into recovery, crippling nearly everyone in this country.

He is not alone. Davy Stcokbrokers reported in the Irish Times forecasts that Ireland will emerge from recession with growth of 0.5 per cent in Gross National Product (GNP) in 2010, with the economy growing by 4 per cent in 2011.

Now unemployment will be slow to fall and consumer spending will be depressed as people with excessive debts pay them off, especially as interest rates increase. But things are merely difficult, not hopeless. Ireland has a very open economy, trade is a large part of the economy, if trade picks up then we can benefit, especially if the private sector would actually cut its costs.

Tipp Man

murf313 wrote: »

just over 500e take home pay. i also am in receipt of tech pay (27pw included) as i am in a technical appointment. bear in mind most soldiers are NOT in receipt of this pay. there is also a military service allowance included in this figure to compensate for unsociable hours (so no overtime)

Firstly it must be said that the defence forces average is considerable lower than the public sector average, defence average is €808, Garda is €1,207 and Prision Officer is €1,196 (I tried to take roles which could be argued are some way similar).

Secondly Murph you are on a salary of €33k (give or take) a year which is not a bad salary it must be said, but being in defence you are definately in the poorest paying public service area

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

newDubliner, please do not misquote me / tinker with posts / add my words together to look as if I said something I did not.

He (or is it she?) juxtaposed two items from one post, indicating by the use of ellipsis that intermediate text had been omitted. That is good practice.

The juxtaposition highlighted an amusing irony.

murf313

Tipp Man wrote: »

Firstly it must be said that the defence forces average is considerable lower than the public sector average, defence average is €808, Garda is €1,207 and Prision Officer is €1,196 (I tried to take roles which could be argued are some way similar).

Secondly Murph you are on a salary of €33k (give or take) a year which is not a bad salary it must be said, but being in defence you are definately in the poorest paying public service area

oh definately not a bad salary, im not going to argue there. But as I said you cant just cut it by 25% (as some have said) that would be a cut of 8250euro pa. leaving 24750 pa.
as
as i said, the top earners should be hit and the lower earners left alone. i am just as sickened as you at the amount some of these top guys are earning......

Tipp Man

ardmacha wrote: »

He is not alone. Davy Stcokbrokers reported in the Irish Times forecasts that Ireland will emerge from recession with growth of 0.5 per cent in Gross National Product (GNP) in 2010, with the economy growing by 4 per cent in 2011.

Now unemployment will be slow to fall and consumer spending will be depressed as people with excessive debts pay them off, especially as interest rates increase. But things are merely difficult, not hopeless. Ireland has a very open economy, trade is a large part of the economy, if trade picks up then we can benefit, especially if the private sector would actually cut its costs.

A lot of these are the same people who back in 2006 and 2007 said the economy would grow by 4% in 08 and 3% in 09. Its a load of rubbish to be honest, there are just so many variables that it is nearly impossible to predict growth rates that far into the future, I have seen it loads where some economist (which i studied in depth) says X% growth in 3 years time, he has about as much chance of getting it right as any Tom dick or harry

Nice little dig at the private sector in your last line, I suppose all the public servants want the private sector back on its feet so we can pay huge taxes to fund their excessive wages;)

Tipp Man

murf313 wrote: »

oh definately not a bad salary, im not going to argue there. But as I said you cant just cut it by 25% (as some have said) that would be a cut of 8250euro pa. leaving 24750 pa.
as
as i said, the top earners should be hit and the lower earners left alone. i am just as sickened as you at the amount some of these top guys are earning......

Well the fairest thing to do is have a sliding scale of decreases, those under 30k loss 5%, 30-40k 7%, 40-50 10% etc as an example.

I would have to disagree with you, i think that everyone in the Public Sector has to take some kind of hit on their wages, the amount the government are missing is just too big

murf313

well i will have to disagree with you tippman.

there is far too much waste in the public sector across the board (hse etc) that could be fixed before we take ANOTHER paycut.

dept of defence is the only dept which is always UNDER budget at the end of the year.

Why should my wages be cut AGAIN when the chief of staff is handing back x amounts of euros at the end of the year. (and getting a nice bonus for it)

ardmacha

I suppose all the public servants want the private sector back on its feet so we can pay huge taxes to fund their excessive wages

Quite. The failure of the private sector to establish a lasting business model is what is holding this country back. Instead of building houses that people don't need, business people should sell something people do need. The hospitals and schools don't seem to lack demand, it is the SUV showrooms that are empty. Yet there is no money to fund these hospitals and the people who work in them because the private sector cannot organise itself to have a reasonable level of economic activity.

Well the fairest thing to do is have a sliding scale of decreases, those under 30k loss 5%, 30-40k 7%, 40-50 10% etc as an example.

What is fair about that? The much quoted ESRI report showed that the alleged gap between the public and private sectors was greatest at lower wage levels rather than high ones.

Tipp Man

ardmacha wrote: »

Quite. The failure of the private sector to establish a lasting business model is what is holding this country back. Instead of building houses that people don't need, business people should sell something people do need. The hospitals and schools don't seem to lack demand, it is the SUV showrooms that are empty. Yet there is no money to fund these hospitals and the people who work in them because the private sector cannot organise itself to have a reasonable level of economic activity.

First off let me say that the property boom of the last 5-7 years was an absoute disaster for this country, however to blame the private sector for supplying house that people demanded, hence such high prices, is nonsense. Simple free market economics dictates that capital will flow into profitable areas, and property was hugely profitable, for all concerned, banks developers, solicitors, estate agents etc. The cause of the bubble though can equally be firmly thrown back at the public sector, exactly what was Patrick Neary doing and the central bank (with a guy who is earning 350k at its head) doing. Along with the government what exactly were these public servants doing to regulate the banks??? Why didn't the government come out and say that house prices were too high??Truth is the increased tax revenues allowed the public sector to make huge wage demands which were offered on a silver plate to them by the government. It suited everyone to have the little property boom, none more so than the public sector who gained more from it than anyone else in the country, average public sector wages have more than doubled in 6 years. Maybe if ye weren't getting paid so much ye wouldn't have been able to fork out stupid money for houses, property wouldn't have been as profitable and capital would not have flowed into that sector as much.

Also with regard to the private sector this government has done nothing but curtail small indigenous industry in this country with a ridiculosly high minimum wage (which needs to be so high because the dole is so high) and employment law that completly prohibits small business from employing. I was talking to a shed builder only 2 weeks ago and he said that he could do with hiring 2 extra people but a) the minimum wage is too high to make it profitable and b) if he did hire them and 1 of them turned out to be useless then it'd be so hard for him to just fire him that it just wasn't worth it. and this guy has been in a very successful hard workiing business for the last 25 years

ardmacha wrote: »

What is fair about that? The much quoted ESRI report showed that the alleged gap between the public and private sectors was greatest at lower wage levels rather than high ones.

So you must be a fairly high earning Public Servant judging by this comment. To be honest i'm not that bothered how the public sector wage bill is cut just as long as it is cut, dramatically. Since 2000 there are 70,000 more public servants earning more than double what they were then, the dogs on the street can see that that is just completely unsustainable and nonsense to be honest. Time for the public sector to face the music, they've had it way to cushy for way too long

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

because the private sector cannot organise itself to have a reasonable level of economic activity.

The private sector isn't a homogenous bloc organised in a top down hierarchy like the public sector. The public sector far more represents one single corporation within the private sector, to give you an idea, one which all other corporations, individuals and businesses in Ireland pay into to keep it running. So to say the private sector isn't organising itself is a misnomer, effectively there is no "private sector" in the sense that you mean.

Amhran Nua

Tipp Man wrote: »

however to blame the private sector for supplying house that people demanded, hence such high prices, is nonsense.

And lest we forget public sector workers created a huge part of that demand, perhaps even the majority of it, and quite possibly more than their fair share with investment properties. Isn't that what the unions talk about constantly these days, members repaying mortgages.

MysticalRain

I seem to recall there were plenty of teachers and guards buying property to let in places like Bulgaria. Not to mention young civil servants in their mid 20s who loaded themselves down with overpriced mortgages as soon as they got their first secure pensionable job.

Riskymove

I find it very interesting that when the Dr Fitzgerald says something that certain people dont like, he is vilified and his opinions dismissed..


...yest when he brings out a report saying something they like....its Gospel

irish_bob

ardmacha wrote: »

from today's Irish Times

Speaking at the Small Firms Association’s annual conference, Prof Fitzgerald said the recovery was also contingent on the Irish economy reducing its cost base.

“We need to ask ourselves if we can price ourselves back into the market rapidly . . . If we do we will see a very robust recovery by 2012, unemployment will come down gradually from 2011 onwards, and we might get back to full employment by 2015.”

He questioned whether costs had actually come down in the private sector. “In our modelling we felt that wage rates, for example, would fall by 7 per cent over two years in the private sector. However, the latest data suggests that, in spite of what people are saying, costs are not coming down significantly. They are still rising, according to CSO data.”

He said there had been a 7 per cent wage cut in the public sector, and many of his European colleagues were “staggered” this had been accepted by Irish public sector workers.

“In terms of where we go from here, it will be important that it is seen that here is some reaction from the private sector and so far the data suggests that there has been no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector . . . Until we see the data from the CSO, there cannot really be further cuts in the public sector.”

those ps workers on the continent must be in a permanent state of shock considiering thier state sector colleagues here bring in 25-30% across the board higher wages and in some cases double the salary

Calhoun

irish_bob wrote: »

those ps workers on the continent must be in a permanent state of shock considiering thier state sector colleagues here bring in 25-30% across the board higher wages and in some cases double the salary

I would also wonder does that CSO report take into account that private sector workers have taken the brunt of job cuts?

Would the public sector workers accept mass redundancies at the statutory rate? and those that are left can keep their wage :P