Public Sector Pay. This one is 68 - 83K

irish_bob

MysticalRain wrote: »

I seem to recall there were plenty of teachers and guards buying property to let in places like Bulgaria. Not to mention young civil servants in their mid 20s who loaded themselves down with overpriced mortgages as soon as they got their first secure pensionable job.

guards were owners of investment properties long before such interests became a national pass time , i have an uncle who despite only being a rank and file owned 40 acres of land and a house in blackrock this twenty years , the reason , the man grabbed all the over time he could get , he worked double shifts every christmas day

ardmacha

those ps workers on the continent must be in a permanent state of shock considiering thier state sector colleagues here bring in 25-30% across the board higher wages and in some cases double the salary

So has there been a massive migration of people from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector in search of these great salaries?

Riskymove

ardmacha wrote: »

So has there been a massive migration of people from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector in search of these great salaries?

I've only encountered a few

as we all know, most immigrants here from the EU worked in private sector

jimmmy

not too many people from overseas have the cupla focail

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

not too many people from overseas have the cupla focail

and your point is?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

as we all know, most immigrants here from the EU worked in private sector

Given the higher wages in the public sector, I think many "immigrants here from the EU" would be working in the p.s. if they could, but they can't.
An duigeann tu ?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Given the higher wages in the public sector, I think many "immigrants here from the EU" would be working in the p.s. if they could, but they can't.
An duigeann tu ?

if you are saying that they cannot join the public sector because they dont have irish that is no longer a requirement for many parts of the public sector

an duigeann tu that?

gurramok

jimmmy wrote: »

Who is Prof Fitzgerald / who pays him ?

What planet does he live on if he thinks "no significant cuts in labour costs or wage rates in the private sector ".
Wait until the tax receipts roll in to the govt. Its not as if the private sector was as well paid as the public sector to begin with ( source : ESRI report ).

Part funded by the govt and part funded by the private sources as far as i know.
ESRI have been consistently wrong on forecasts throughout the years so take any forecast from them with a pinch of salt.

They have been right with examining present and past data in case anyone tries to dish their recent reports on public/private sector salaries.

Riskymove wrote:

I find it very interesting that when the Dr Fitzgerald says something that certain people dont like, he is vilified and his opinions dismissed..


...yest when he brings out a report saying something they like....its Gospel

His father who was bailed out by a bank supports Nama. His other son is the famous estate agent.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

if you are saying that they cannot join the public sector because they dont have irish that is no longer a requirement for many parts of the public sector

I did not say that. I know that you now just need to be fluent in Irish for some of the public sector instead of for virtually all of the public sector once upon a time.
I said that..."Given the higher wages in the public sector, I think many "immigrants here from the EU" would be working in the p.s. if they could, but they can't." The average industrial wage here is considerably lower than the public service wage, hours are longer, pensions not comparable, less security etc ....so why do you think there has not been an influx of people from the EC in to the Irish public sector ? Hint : because not everyone can work in it . An Duigeann tu ?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

An Duigeann tu ?

well now that you have made your point I do but how

Originally Posted by jimmmy
not too many people from overseas have the cupla focail

has anything to do with

because not everyone can work in it

I still cant quite understand

anyways...I have encountered many foreign doctors and nurses in our public health services and workers in education

I have also worked with a few people from other EU States over the years so there is obviously some influx

jimmmy

Originally Posted by ardmacha :
"So has there been a massive migration of people from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector in search of these great salaries? "

Riskymove wrote: »

I've only encountered a few

as we all know, most immigrants here from the EU worked in private sector

Riskymove wrote: »

anyways...I have encountered many foreign doctors and nurses in our public health services and workers in education

I have also worked with a few people from other EU States over the years so there is obviously some influx

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

what's your point now?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

what's your point now?

I was merely smiling at how you change your answers. When you were asked the question by another poster "So has there been a massive migration of people from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector in search of these great salaries? "
instead of saying " I have encountered many foreign doctors and nurses in our public health services and workers in education. I have also worked with a few people from other EU States over the years etc " ( which you said later ) you replied
"I've only encountered a few. as we all know, most immigrants here from the EU worked in private sector"

Now which is it...a few or many ?
:D:D

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I was merely smiling at how you change your answers.

you really are getting worse jimmmy...how can you see a difference in those answers?...I did not change my position

I said most of the foreign workers came into the private sector but that i had encountered "a few" in the public sector

i guess it depends on your interpretation of "many" doctors and nurses...I would say I have seen or encountered maybe 100 over the years...is that "many" for you...is there a term more favorable to you?

I know you tend to be literal and all but still......

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

that i had encountered "a few" in the public sector

correction ; you wrote you've "only encountered a few" ( " immigrants of from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector ")
nows its many , and now its hundreds etc
Don't worry about it.

Regarding the sector these immigrants worked in, seeing as you brought up this point ... in reply to your statement that " most immigrants here from the EU worked in private sector " my point was "Given the higher wages in the public sector, I think many "immigrants here from the EU" would be working in the p.s. if they could, but they can't."

Back to the point of the thread....do you think similar posts in all the other European countries would pay as well ? Or maybe you think 68 to 83 k per year for a social worker is fair enough pay , and a suitable applicant could not be recruited for less ? Maybe you think 68 to 83 k is nothing out of the ordinary ?
To put things in perspective, the prime minister of New Zealand, a country of roughly the same population as Ireland, is paid something like the equivalent of 80,000 euro.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... Or maybe you think 68 to 83 k per year for a social worker is fair enough pay , and a suitable applicant could not be recruited for less ?...

Have you an objection to truthfulness, jimmmy? The jobs under discussion are not ordinary social worker appointments.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

correction ; you wrote you've "only encountered a few" ( " immigrants of from these West European countries to the Irish Public Sector ")
nows its many , and now its hundreds etc
Don't worry about it.

I cant believe i am still bothering to respond to you about this but...

a hundred or so nurses and doctors over the entire health service would be a few jimmmy in that context; are you saying you never heard of or encountered phillipino nurses or Indian Doctors in the irish health service?


my reference to "encountering only a few" was in relation to my own work experience (i.e. a couple of European nationals)

it was only as we exchanged further posts and I thought more about the matter that I thought about nurses and doctors

with regard to whether or not other countries would pay managerial level social workers I dont know because I dont work in that area....though i imagine it wouldnt be as high as here

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Have you an objection to truthfulness, jimmmy? The jobs under discussion are not ordinary social worker appointments.

Correct, the 3 positions advertised for are for "Principal Social Worker"
I did not say if they were ordinary or extraordinary jobs. I imagine there are managers in the service which are paid much more.....even people who work in the HSE sometimes comment on the layers of management etc.
Maybe you think 68 to 83 k per year for a social worker - principle or not - is fair enough pay , and a suitable applicant could not be recruited for less ? Maybe you think 68 to 83 k is nothing out of the ordinary ? As I said, to put things in perspective, the prime minister of New Zealand, a country of roughly the same population as Ireland, is paid something like the equivalent of 80,000 euro. Some of our retired public servants get more than that in pension alone each year.

Tim Robbins

jimmmy wrote: »

Correct, the 3 positions advertised for are for "Principal Social Worker"
I did not say if they were ordinary or extraordinary jobs. I imagine there are managers in the service which are paid much more.....even people who work in the HSE sometimes comment on the layers of management etc.
Maybe you think 68 to 83 k per year for a social worker - principle or not - is fair enough pay , and a suitable applicant could not be recruited for less ? Maybe you think 68 to 83 k is nothing out of the ordinary ? As I said, to put things in perspective, the prime minister of New Zealand, a country of roughly the same population as Ireland, is paid something like the equivalent of 80,000 euro. Some of our retired public servants get more than that in pension alone each year.

That's incredible. But, I think New Zealand has a very weak currency though.

jimmmy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's incredible. But, I think New Zealand has a very weak currency though.

It has, and I know the few New Zealand tourists who may visit here ( eg to see family or roots ) find it extremely expensive. We have got so used to high wages in this country though we tend to forget how the rest of the world lives / what they can afford. eg in a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, ( available now in your newsagents ), it compares the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In the Netherlands it was € 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. Its not because teachers work shorter hours abroad ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735

optocynic

jimmmy wrote: »

It has, and I know the few New Zealand tourists who may visit here ( eg to see family or roots ) find it extremely expensive. We have got so used to high wages in this country though we tend to forget how the rest of the world lives / what they can afford. eg in a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, ( available now in your newsagents ), it compares the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In the Netherlands it was € 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. Its not because teachers work shorter hours abroad ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735

It's not nice to quote statistical facts... don't you know that?

I personally don't care if our teachers are the best paid in the known universe.. I would just expect their results to reflect the inflated pay...

Do you think teachers today are delivering results that warrant their pay/conditions?

jimmmy

optocynic wrote: »

I personally don't care if our teachers are the best paid in the known universe.. I would just expect their results to reflect the inflated pay...

Agreed

optocynic wrote: »

Do you think teachers today are delivering results that warrant their pay/conditions?

No, not by a long shot. Not in this country, which is where we are discussing.

LoLth

jimmmy wrote: »

It has, and I know the few New Zealand tourists who may visit here ( eg to see family or roots ) find it extremely expensive. We have got so used to high wages in this country though we tend to forget how the rest of the world lives / what they can afford. eg in a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, ( available now in your newsagents ), it compares the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In the Netherlands it was € 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. Its not because teachers work shorter hours abroad ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735

funny you mention Portugal in that post. I was working as a network admin in a private sector company about 6 years ago and I was considering moving to portugal (I like the place and have passable portuguese). However, even though the cost of living is a good bit cheaper the wages for a network admin were not even at the same level as a 1 year experienced helpdesk person in Ireland. In the end I didnt go but I'd love to know how the private sector jobs stack up against those countries.

jimmmy

LoLth wrote: »

funny you mention Portugal in that post. I was working as a network admin in a private sector company about 6 years ago and I was considering moving to portugal (I like the place and have passable portuguese). However, even though the cost of living is a good bit cheaper the wages for a network admin were not even at the same level as a 1 year experienced helpdesk person in Ireland. In the end I didnt go but I'd love to know how the private sector jobs stack up against those countries.

I'd love to have those figures at hand....I remember reading them someplace some time ago. Anyway the minimum wage etc is a lot lower in Portugal...overall its not a rich country...and while the sunshine etc would be nice I do not hear of many people going there for the money.

Idbatterim

the jobs that re being discussed, are they open to any applicants or do you have to be in the Public Service?

ardmacha

Originally Posted by optocynic View Post
Do you think teachers today are delivering results that warrant their pay/conditions?
No, not by a long shot. Not in this country, which is where we are discussing.

It is a complete myth that there is some huge spending on education which is bankrupting the country, quite the reverse.
While education should not be exempt from hardship, it is not the cause of high public spending in this country. For that the answer lies elsewhere. Which is not to say that something cannot be learned in a positive way from other countries.

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

It is a complete myth that there is some huge spending on education which is bankrupting the country,

Just because ourr teachers are among the best paid and pensioned in Europe does not mean anything else. Because wages are so high, class sizes, facilities, money for other uses etc often leaves a lot to be desired.

Be aware that the American multinationals + the way they transfer ( launder ) profits through Ireland ( because of our low corporation tax rate ) can skew Gross figures for the country.

ardmacha

Just because ourr teachers are among the best paid and pensioned in Europe does not mean anything else

Among, but not uniquely so, and subject general reductions in pay brought about by the levy etc. In effect the government has sought to use reasonably well paid staff to hold together an underfunded education service.

A bigger question is, if education is an important part of government spending and aggregate spending on education is not especially high (and it isn't) , then why do we have a public finance crisis? Are we overspending elsewhere or do we have a deficient tax system?

gdael

Lu Tze wrote: »

It seems to me that whenever there appears to be a salary disparity between private and public sector pay, the arguement from unions et al seems to be that the jobs aren;t really comparable.

I've heard this enough times that i have decided to post up the salaries from a public job advert that was sent to me in june of last year.

(1) ASSISTANT ENGINEER


Salary: €41,786 to €60,036 (LSI 2)

(2) GRADUATE ENGINEER

Salary: €33,164 - €39,991


As a graduate, the pay difference from what i recieved (3 years previous - but it was the same scale as i was offered a job at the time) to the minimum pay here 9% greater in public sector.

When this job advertised i was at the same level (assistant engineer) and well inside eligibility criteria, and the difference to the minimum on this pay scale is 24%.

In relation to the "if it is so good why didn't you go for it then" comment which is inevitably coming

I was offered two jobs as a graduate in the PS, but the reason has stayed the same why i wouldn't join unless i don't have any other options, as i worked there before
- the work is uninteresting, unfulfiling, with very little technical aspects to it which would hamper progression in the various disciplines, and not enough work (at those levels) to fill the day (these are all dependant on being in a position in the offices, not on site!)
- Entering at the higher levels as project manager would be a viable option however.

I dont get why everyone thinks private sector is paying peanuts either.
The hours in the OP and holidays are similar to mine.

Lately im getting restless and have sent my CV to the agencies.

Just an an example, I got this mail this morning. Even though i have the skills im looking for more than this. Cutting through the padding, its just a bog standard DB role.
To be honest its not enough to even be interested in it.

Hi *****,
I hope all is well. I thought I would send you a quick email as a new role has come into me this week that may be of interest to you. A large multi-national software firm is in the process of setting up an R&D division in Galway. This is involving the recruitment of a number of senior developers and engineers who are looking to develop and work on an award winning product. There is one role they are finding particularly tricky and have asked for my assistance on it. I thought I would send you through my ad for the role, maybe it will be of interest to you, or you may alternatively know someone who would like it.
This is an excellent opportunity for anyone looking to work on the best of technology you can get your hands on. This software is developed in C#, ASP.Net, and C++ with a SQL Server back end. They are currently using SQL Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008, so you will be working with the most up to date technologies possible.
The key responsibilities of the role:
Work at a senior level and take responsibility for database development for Ireland.
Be the database champion, work with the project manager and architect on the direction of the database and the core design.
Design, test, implement and maintain complex upgrades to the database.
Do research and analysis on the best path for the database and work out the best possible solutions to future issues.
Deal with customers on complex database issues and resolve problems which may occur.
Skills required for the role:
A minimum of 5 years experience developing with SQL Server.
Previous experience working in a database focused position.
Be a SQL Server specialist, looking for someone who considers SQL Server their main technical skill.
Enjoy working with the latest technologies and be keen to start working with SQL Server 2008.
If this role sounds like something that would interest you please do get in touch with me either by phone or email. If you are happy where you are but know someone who would suit this role please do forward my email on. The salary on offer for this role is up to €65,000 and will come with pension, health care, bonus scheme and life assurance.
Kind regards,

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

It has, and I know the few New Zealand tourists who may visit here ( eg to see family or roots ) find it extremely expensive. We have got so used to high wages in this country though we tend to forget how the rest of the world lives / what they can afford. eg in a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, ( available now in your newsagents ), it compares the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In the Netherlands it was € 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. Its not because teachers work shorter hours abroad ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735

those statistics on teachers wages are astonishing , the netherland , norway , sweeden , all theese countries are consierably richer than ireland

i have a cousin in wales who has been an NHS nurse since 1986 , he is several rungs up the nursing ladder yet earns only slightly more than a nurse starting off over here , he earns 33,000 pounds per year , we are so out of whack in this country , its no longer funny