Czech move to block treaty!

View · 30-09-2009 5:36pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

Well, maybe not good enough for a bunch of EU apoligists, but none of these guarantees are good enough for me. I think its a joke and you dont seem to get it.

The Government's role is to address the concerns of a majority of the electorate. There aren't actually required to address the concerns of each and every one of the electorate.

Rb · 30-09-2009 5:37pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

Well, maybe not good enough for a bunch of EU apoligists, but none of these guarantees are good enough for me. I think its a joke and you dont seem to get it. How many times do people have to be forced and coerced into this? Atleast we Lisbon is defeated in Friday, we won't be asked again Then its over!

Oh dear, not good enough for you? Oh dear oh dear, maybe they should just go back and re-write the whole treaty according to how you see fit?

It was the most cost and time effective solution and I trust the EU on it.

Also, making claims without an ounce of legitimate evidence is not good enough for a lot more than just EU apologists.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 7:27pm

CCCP^ wrote: »

Well, maybe not good enough for a bunch of EU apoligists, but none of these guarantees are good enough for me. I think its a joke and you dont seem to get it. How many times do people have to be forced and coerced into this? Atleast we Lisbon is defeated in Friday, we won't be asked again Then its over!

Good point! and the "guarantees" are not legal for years, that is if everyone who has to vote on them agrees to them, and I am betting they will not agree to them!

Dinner · 30-09-2009 7:30pm

truthisfree wrote: »

Good point! and the "guarantees" are not legal for years, that is if everyone who has to vote on them agrees to them, and I am betting they will not agree to them!

The guarantees will become legally binding the day Lisbon is ratified, similar to the Good Friday Agreement and the Anglo Irish Agreement (and the Edinburgh and Seville agreements). Which of those have been broken or ruled against? As an extra measure they will be turned into protocols in the next accession treaty.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 7:53pm

Dinner wrote: »

The guarantees will become legally binding the day Lisbon is ratified, similar to the Good Friday Agreement and the Anglo Irish Agreement (and the Edinburgh and Seville agreements). Which of those have been broken or ruled against? As an extra measure they will be turned into protocols in the next accession treaty.

I have listened to the debates and read about these and there is disagreement still about this, one of the problems that I have with this treaty is that if there is a problem it will take a legal team to come up with an interpretation exactly what it means.

The point is the Treaty is far from accessible to the layman and we will never have any say in it again. Sweden does quite well staying out of the EU, so does Norway, Greenland left it, it is not as though the people in Denmark are going to stop buying my product if we vote no, in fact the last time I was surprised to receive email from people I deal with in Denmark congratulating Ireland for voting no.

Why fix something if it is not broken? oldest adage in business.

Dinner · 30-09-2009 8:00pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I have listened to the debates and read about these and there is disagreement still about this, one of the problems that I have with this treaty is that if there is a problem it will take a legal team to come up with an interpretation exactly what it means.

Where, exactly, will the problem arise. Where could it possibly arise. The guarantees state what is not in the treaty because the issues addressed are not in the treaty.

truthisfree wrote: »

The point is the Treaty is far from accessible to the layman and we will never have any say in it again.

The treaty is not accessible to the lay man. I'm a lay man and it is a boring document, but it's not unreadble or inaccessible. Many people on this forum have read it and they are not lawyers.

truthisfree wrote: »

Why fix something if it is not broken? oldest adage in business.

If you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards. Older adage in business.

If business took the opinion of 'sure we're grand' I'd be typing up this post on a computer the size of my house. Just because things are 'chugging away nicely' doesn't mean we should strive to improve it.

HEY SCIENCE! PUT DOWN THE NOTEPAD, WE'RE GRAND! :pac:

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:01pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I have...... in business.

Sweden is in the EU.

MrMatisse · 30-09-2009 8:18pm

Fair play to them.(the czechs)

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:19pm

prinz wrote: »

Sweden is in the EU.

Apologies I meant Greenland, Ice land and Norway are not in the EU, they do have various trade agreements and are quite happy with them.

namloc1980 · 30-09-2009 8:21pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I have listened to the debates and read about these and there is disagreement still about this, one of the problems that I have with this treaty is that if there is a problem it will take a legal team to come up with an interpretation exactly what it means.

The point is the Treaty is far from accessible to the layman and we will never have any say in it again. Sweden does quite well staying out of the EU, so does Norway, Greenland left it, it is not as though the people in Denmark are going to stop buying my product if we vote no, in fact the last time I was surprised to receive email from people I deal with in Denmark congratulating Ireland for voting no.

Why fix something if it is not broken? oldest adage in business.

I don't think it is far from accessible. It is long and boring to read but not inaccessible. Not sure what you mean about never have any say in it again.

BTW Sweden is in the EU and since Iceland's banking crisis they have been clammering to get into the EU.....why would they want to do this???

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:22pm

truthisfree wrote: »

Apologies I meant Greenland, Ice land and Norway are not in the EU, they do have various trade agreements and are quite happy with them.

Looks likely Iceland will soon be on the way towards accession to the EU.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:28pm

Dinner wrote: »

Where, exactly, will the problem arise. Where could it possibly arise. The guarantees state what is not in the treaty because the issues addressed are not in the treaty.

The treaty is not accessible to the lay man. I'm a lay man and it is a boring document, but it's not unreadble or inaccessible. Many people on this forum have read it and they are not lawyers.

If you're not moving forward, you're moving backwards. Older adage in business.

If business took the opinion of 'sure we're grand' I'd be typing up this post on a computer the size of my house. Just because things are 'chugging away nicely' doesn't mean we should strive to improve it.

HEY SCIENCE! PUT DOWN THE NOTEPAD, WE'RE GRAND! :pac:

This country is moving backwards and clinging on to the EU for dear life in what is basically a a**kissing exercise signing this treaty as the powers that be believe that the EU is going to bail us out of the crisis we are in and it is not going to. Look at Spain, they voted Yes and the army are now reduced to €100 per week.

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:30pm

truthisfree wrote: »

This country is moving backwards and clinging on to the EU for dear life in what is basically a a**kissing exercise signing this treaty as the powers that be believe that the EU is going to bail us out of the crisis we are in and it is not going to..

The ECB is already bailing us out regardless of the Treaty. That's a redundant argument.

MrMatisse · 30-09-2009 8:35pm

prinz wrote: »

The ECB is already bailing us out regardless of the Treaty. That's a redundant argument.

ECB is separate from the eu and the treaty.

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:38pm

Really-Stressed wrote: »

ECB is separate from the eu and the treaty.

My point exactly.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:39pm

prinz wrote: »

Looks likely Iceland will soon be on the way towards accession to the EU.

The Icelandic people are in no way enamoured by joining the EU and have the same problem we have with our government telling us to say yes.

Rb · 30-09-2009 8:44pm

truthisfree wrote: »

The Icelandic people are in no way enamoured by joining the EU and have the same problem we have with our government telling us to say yes.

Proof please?

8-10 · 30-09-2009 8:45pm

Really-Stressed wrote: »

ECB is separate from the eu and the treaty.

How is the ECB separate from the EU? Under Lisbon it's an EU institution?

Article 13 of the TEU defines the Union’s institutional framework as comprising the European Parliament, the European Council, the Council of Ministers, the European Commission, the Court of Justice of the European Union, the European Central Bank, and the Court of Auditors.

sceptre · 30-09-2009 8:47pm

truthisfree wrote: »

Look at Spain, they voted Yes and the army are now reduced to €100 per week.

Can you offer any kind of evidence for this, including what whichever grade it is was getting paid before your claim that they're not getting 100 euros a week? Because I've looked, can't find anywhere on the Internet mentioning it and we've had outlandish made-up claims before.

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:51pm

truthisfree wrote: »

The Icelandic people are in no way enamoured by joining the EU and have the same problem we have with our government telling us to say yes.

Are they though...

Greenland: http://sermitsiaq.gl/politik/article73961.ece?lang=EN

Iceland: http://www.easybourse.com/bourse/actualite-financiere/poll-64prc-of-icelanders-favor-talks-on-eu-membership-630187

Many polls show the majority of Icelandic folk in favour of accession talks as it happens.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:51pm

Rb wrote: »

Proof please?

I read the Icelandic newspapers and public opinion is not in favour of joining, their government are trying to push them into it but are also in trouble as regards some irregularities in the way they have been behaving themselves.

I am tired after a hard days work and i am not going to go searching for the reference, so you will just have to accept my word on it.

prinz · 30-09-2009 8:53pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I am tired after a hard days work and i am not going to go searching for the reference, so you will just have to accept my word on it.

:pac: ok so. If it's your word.:pac:

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:56pm

prinz wrote: »

Are they though...

Greenland: http://sermitsiaq.gl/politik/article73961.ece?lang=EN

Iceland: http://www.easybourse.com/bourse/actualite-financiere/poll-64prc-of-icelanders-favor-talks-on-eu-membership-630187

Many polls show the majority of Icelandic folk in favour of accession talks as it happens.

Do you bother to read any of the links you post?

"A majority of Icelanders want to begin membership negotiations with the European Union but a much smaller number actually want to join the 27-member bloc, a fresh poll showed Monday."

"However, when asked if they wanted to join the 27-member bloc, opponents were in the majority. Only 39.7% were in favor of joining the E.U., whereas 45.5% opposed and 14.8% were undecided"

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 8:58pm

prinz wrote: »

:pac: ok so. If it's your word.:pac:

Thank you, someone else saved me the trouble of looking but had obviously not read the paper. I appreciate you taking me on my word, life is way too short for BS

8-10 · 30-09-2009 9:00pm

truthisfree wrote: »

Thank you, someone else saved me the trouble of looking but had obviously not read the paper. I appreciate you taking me on my word, life is way too short for BS

Why do you read Icelandic newspapers? Family there?

Genuine curiosity.

Creation · 30-09-2009 9:16pm

moondogspot wrote: »

PS. I have a feeling that President Vaclav Klaus wants a British referendum to sink Lisbon.

I have hopes and alot of respect for the Czech President.

If the President just holds out for 6/7 months. This filth of a treaty will be sunk faster than a stone in water by us Brits

Lets see if Europe would try and bully UK to vote 'Yes'.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 9:19pm

8-10 wrote: »

Why do you read Icelandic newspapers? Family there?

Genuine curiosity.

I studied and worked in several European countries over the years and like the Northern countries in particular, so I still scan their newspapers and try to keep in touch with what is going on, and mostly just to see how they feel about things.

truthisfree · 30-09-2009 9:21pm

Creation wrote: »

I have hopes and alot of respect for the Czech President.

If the President just holds out for 6/7 months. This filth of a treaty will be sunk faster than a stone in water by us Brits

Lets see if Europe would try and bully UK to vote 'Yes'

I think he will do everything in his power to stop this Treaty if it is passed here.

sceptre · 30-09-2009 9:23pm

prinz wrote: »

Are they though...

Greenland: http://sermitsiaq.gl/politik/article73961.ece?lang=EN

Iceland: http://www.easybourse.com/bourse/actualite-financiere/poll-64prc-of-icelanders-favor-talks-on-eu-membership-630187

Many polls show the majority of Icelandic folk in favour of accession talks as it happens.

Not lately - the last poll was a fortnight ago and showed the desire to join at 33%. Icelanders have been a bit odd about the whole thing and seem to have a far higher percentage in favour of starting negotiations than joining. Which I assume is a wait and see approach. Of course their economy is metaphorically sinking into the sea without that German gold to prop it up.

As I rarely expect anyone to accept anything based on my word (although some of you do I know), check out the official results for the polls referenced on the Iceland & The eeeee ooooo wikipedia page. You'll notice the same wacky traits with the polls from there since they started doing them. Unwanted editorial remark: with what happened to their economy, I hope they like fish because that's all there will be to eat without the economy propping from a country with money (cough, Germany) unfortunately.

Oh, I didn't bother looking up Greenland. AFAIR support for rejoining (don't forget Greenland left the EU in 1985, the only territory so far to do so) has been growing over the past few years all right.

Creation · 30-09-2009 9:26pm

truthisfree wrote: »

I think he will do everything in his power to stop this Treaty if it is passed here.

I am just hoping beyond hope that the Irish once again prevail with a No vote.

No does not mean no when it comes to Europe and Brussels. They have no respect for democracy and the peoples vote.

If Ireland votes No or Czechs delay until we go to the polls. Eurocrats might as well sink to the floor because the British will be next to vote and it will be a cold day in hell before it passes

Czech move to block treaty!

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