Lisbon's Goal: to elect an EU president

pog it

marco_polo wrote: »

Thank you and goodnight to you too, this has been a most useful thread in demonstrating the fact that no new position has been created for President of the European Council. And further that there has been no change to the scope of the role with the exception of the length of the term and the mode of appointment.

No thank you You have tried to make light of the changes that pertain to the EU President but I and I'm sure others won't buy it that easily as part-time to full-time= Escalation and increase in power for that President.
That to me equates to a new president as hitherto it had been part-time and therefore not as powerful a position.

night night.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

My last word on this is to address your comments about retreating into the shadows. Eh it's 1.15am-- late enough when you are up at 8am wouldn't you say, but I was studying and pop in to Boards for a break and popped in here for the first time- not involved in any campaigning unlike some people who have replied to my posts.

And I have addressed your points. Lisbon is an escalation of power for the EU President who will be wholly focussed on the running of the EU. That to me = creating a new EU President, tweak as you like about it only going from part-time to full-time, but that is a very meaningful change.

And like I said already, it is the newest in the series of treaties which adds in its load and brings on more centralisation of politics in Europe. Give me any spiel you like, but I'm afraid I won't buy it. I am looking at the BIGGER picture and not going to make the mistake of isolating Lisbon like lot of people are going to do.

I am not involved in any campaign but you sir are clearly mis-representing the facts. First of all there is no such thing as the EU President - it is called President of the European Council and the position has been in existence for decades. Bertie Ahern was the President of the European Council a few years ago and a Swedish gentleman called Fredrik Reinfeldt is the current President. What Lisbon does is increase the term to 2.5 years from current 6 months at a time and the person appointed will not be a member state head of Government as is the case at present. It is not feasible gong forward for someone to be the President of the European Council and their country's Prime Minister at the same time.

There is no escalation of power as you put it. Lisbon does no confer any new powers on the President of the European Council - they are in effect the charmain of the Council. But please feel free to point out the article in the Treaty that gives this new mystery 'EU President' loads of power!?

Plus the council of ministers has been in existence for over 50 years and is not something new under Lisbon.

pog it

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

what about me?

lisbon barely makes up 5% of the stuff I have talked about on Boards.


Are you gonna answer my question or are you gonna pretend I am some long term yes campaign shill planted before even the nice treaty with intent of devalueing your post.

What new powers does Lisbon give the President of the European Council?

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

stop it really. Please show us where in the Lisbon Treaty this new mystery 'EU President' (actually called President of the European Council) will get new powers??

The President of the European Council will be appointed by the 27 Heads of Government who are ALL elected by the people in their respective countries. Not undemocratic in my view.

pog it

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

It's all very alarming and very very f***KEd up.

Please people do not fall for it. We will still be a member of the EU if we vote No so don't let them make a fool and pawn of you.

BlitzKrieg

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

thats funny...

Cause I have a list of them right here:

If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission.

A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties. The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

The President of the Council and the Commission shall report to the European Parliament on the results of multilateral surveillance. The President of the Council may be invited to appear before the competent committee of the European Parliament if the Council has made its recommendations public.

Where a Member State is in difficulties or is seriously threatened with severe difficulties caused by natural disasters or exceptional occurrences beyond its control, the Council, on a proposal from the Commission, may grant, under certain conditions, Union financial assistance to the Member State concerned. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decision taken.

As long as a Member State fails to comply with a decision taken in accordance with paragraph 9, the Council may decide to apply or, as the case may be, intensify one or more of the following measures.....The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decisions taken.

The Council shall, on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Central Bank and the Committee referred to in this Article, lay down detailed provisions concerning the composition of the Economic and Financial Committee. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of such a decision.

The Council may, acting by a qualified majority either on a recommendation from the European Central Bank or on a recommendation from the Commission, and after consulting the European Central Bank, in an endeavour to reach a consensus consistent with the objective of price stability, adopt, adjust or abandon the central rates of the euro within the exchange-rate system. The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the adoption, adjustment or abandonment of the euro central rates.

Where the European Council decides by vote, its President and the President of the Commission shall not take part in the vote.

The Council shall meet when convened by its President on his own initiative or at the request of one of its Members or of the Commission.

A vacancy caused by resignation, compulsory retirement or death shall be filled for the remainder of the member’s term of office by a new member of the same nationality appointed by the Council, by common accord with the President of the Commission, after consulting the European Parliament and in accordance with the criteria set out in the second subparagraph of Article 9d(3) of the Treaty on European Union

The Council may, acting unanimously on a proposal from the President of the Commission, decide that such a vacancy need not be filled, in particular when the remainder of the member’s term of office is short.

The President of the Council and a member of the Commission may participate, without having the right to vote, in meetings of the Governing Council of the European Central Bank. The President of the Council may submit a motion for deliberation to the Governing Council of the European Central Bank.

If, within three months of receiving the European Parliament’s amendments, the Council, acting by a qualified majority: (a) approves all those amendments, the act in question shall be deemed to have been adopted; (b) does not approve all the amendments, the President of the Council, in agreement with the President of the European Parliament, shall within six weeks convene a meeting of the Conciliation Committee.

Legislative acts adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure shall be signed by the President of the European Parliament and by the President of the Council.

If, within forty-two days of such communication, the European Parliament: (a) approves the position of the Council, the budget shall be adopted; (b) has not taken a decision, the budget shall be deemed to have been adopted; (c) adopts amendments by a majority of its component members, the amended draft shall be forwarded to the Council and to the Commission. The President of the European Parliament, in agreement with the President of the Council, shall immediately convene a meeting of the Conciliation Committee. However, if within ten days of the draft being forwarded the Council informs the European Parliament that it has approved all its amendments, the Conciliation Committee shall not meet.

Regular meetings between the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council and the Commission shall be convened, on the initiative of the Commission, under the budgetary procedures referred to in this Chapter. The Presidents shall take all the necessary steps to promote consultation and the reconciliation of the positions of the institutions over which they preside in order to facilitate the implementation of this Title.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

the powers were outlined in the prior treaties, you can see them if you use the consolidated version of lisbon. You can find them at the bottom of article 15 of the treaty of the european union though.

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Considering again he has no executive power, no legaslative power and no vote on the council why waste taxpayers money to run mulitiple elections across the EU?

Again seriously undemocratic.


What more info do you want from me on this?

Not much, just a bit of effort to research your points.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Well ya know what ? I would LOVE to know! I think all member states of Europe would love to know this, but we don't know yet what the exact powers are that the new European President will have!

Those powers will only be determined AFTER the Treaty has been ratified by all members.

There is something seriously wrong there. Why not outline that in the Treaty if we are going to legislate and say Yes to Lisbon in order to create a FULL time president?

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

What more info do you want from me on this?

We know exactly what his role willl be because it is right there in plain black and white in the TEU.

Where are you getting yor information that his powers have not yet been decided?

The European Council shall elect its President, by a qualified majority, for a term of two and a half years, renewable once. In the event of an impediment or serious misconduct, the European Council can end the President’s term of office in accordance with the same procedure.

6. The President of the European Council:

(a) shall chair it and drive forward its work;

(b) shall ensure the preparation and continuity of the work of the European Council in cooperation with the President of the Commission, and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council;

(c) shall endeavour to facilitate cohesion and consensus within the European Council;

(d) shall present a report to the European Parliament after each of the meetings of the European Council.

The President of the European Council shall, at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy, without prejudice to the powers of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

As already stated President of the European Councill has been in existence for decades. This Treaty changes how they are appointed and how long they are in office.

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

As stated President of the European Council will be elected by the 27 Heads of Government of EU member states - all of whom have been directly elected by the people in their respective countries - not undemocratic

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

No new powers are being given under Lisbon so I don't know where you get this from - please provide us with some sources

Please show us where the new powers are coming from???

pog it

That text does not outline in full detail the full range of powers this EU president will have. Read the text- it is all general and superficial for now. The detail only happens after ratification.

And you may personally feel it over the top and unnecessary for all member states to hold a referendum to vote on who the President of the European Council (EU AFFAIRS) will be but I do. I'm proud of this country and I'm not handing one bit of its governance over to a centralised EU government, sceidín go fóidín, fóidin go fód.

Anyway this is but ONE of the reasons I am voting No in two days time.

I welcome the news of the Czech move.

Have you heard?

pog it

RE. Who votes in this President, I am not happy that Brian Cowen has the power on behalf of Ireland to make his vote as to who gets awarded the Presidency!

He is NOT even an elected Taoiseach. It's a joke that he has responsibility to vote for me and act on my behalf. It's embarrassing we have him as Taoiseach.

I'd prefer the collective will and intelligence of all of Europe to have a say on WHO this president is.

BlitzKrieg

once again.

he has no executive powers, no legaslative powers and not voting power.

These are not elements that can be *added in* after the treaty is ratified, that is impossible as any elements that extends or withdraws powers from the institution requires constitutional ratification (meaning a referendum in ireland's case).

So those "general and superficial" powers are the limits of his powers under Lisbon. They cant be extended into new areas that requires ratification.

There is no maybe or buts about this, its how it works. If we could give the President of the european council new powers without ratification then there is no point to the Lisbon referendum because all the changes could be made without ratification.

heyjude

Tarobot wrote: »

That's funny because I'm Irish, proud to be so and am not insulted to be asked twice. Are you in favour of divorce? If we weren't allowed to vote twice we would still not have divorce in this country.

At the time of the first referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government said they would respect the decision of the people. Yet surely nobody would deny that the decision to hold another referendum was taken shortly afterwards, even if it took months for the government to actually admit it. Comparing the decision to hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty to the decision to hold a second referendum on divorce, is like comparing apples and oranges. The first Lisbon Treaty referendum was held on 12th June 2008, the second will be held on 2nd October 2009, just 15 months later and the intention to hold a second vote was clear, shortly after the first vote was rejected. The first divorce referendum was held on 26th June 1986, the second divorce vote was held on 24th November 1995, nearly 113 months(9+ years) later and given the long delay, there clearly was no immediate intention following the initial rejection of divorce to plan for another vote. Immediately setting plans in motion for another vote is not respecting the decision of the people, its doing whatever it takes to get what you want.

Scofflaw

heyjude wrote: »

At the time of the first referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, the government said they would respect the decision of the people. Yet surely nobody would deny that the decision to hold another referendum was taken shortly afterwards, even if it took months for the government to actually admit it. Comparing the decision to hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty to the decision to hold a second referendum on divorce, is like comparing apples and oranges. The first Lisbon Treaty referendum was held on 12th June 2008, the second will be held on 2nd October 2009, just 15 months later and the intention to hold a second vote was clear, shortly after the first vote was rejected. The first divorce referendum was held on 26th June 1986, the second divorce vote was held on 24th November 1995, nearly 113 months(9+ years) later and given the long delay, there clearly was no immediate intention following the initial rejection of divorce to plan for another vote. Immediately setting plans in motion for another vote is not respecting the decision of the people, its doing whatever it takes to get what you want.

The only requirement from a referendum vote is either (a) an amendment of the Constitution, or (b), no amendment of the Constitution. The idea that a referendum vote should set the result in stone for all time is obviously undemocratic - so it's only a question of how long you feel should elapse between referendums on the same issue, which is fundamentally a matter of personal opinion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

8-10

This issue is a bit ridiculous, but there's been lots of excellent posts since then so maybe the thread has been useful in informing people exactly what the position does and how it has certainly no negative consequences unless you think mysterious powers will emerge as the first stage to some sort of One World Government. I'm very curious to hear speculation on what these mystery powers will be? The role of President of the European Council is to act as chair and to drive forward the work of the European Council, facilitating cohesion and consensus; to ensure the preparation and continuity of the European Council’s work, but in co-operation with the President of the Commission and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council; and, at his or her level, to ensure the external representation of the Union’s Common Foreign and Security Policy. Where there is a vote, only Heads of State can participate.

I think you mean to post this in the Conspiratory Theories forum as that is exactly what it is. You believe that this position is to be given power as an overall 'EU President'? What can he/she set legislation and force member states to do his/her bidding? It's really not some sort of new governance out of nowhere, the Council will operate the same way as it does now! It's just chaired differently, and more efficently.

I'm torn between thinking you don't understand the treaty in respect to this or thinking you've got this conspiracy agenda that you're trying to fit this into as an argument.

It's as plain and simple as many of the (much better) posts before mine, particularly BlitzKrieg @ 2:07.

(and I have slightly less posts than you and this is maybe my 2nd on Lisbon? I don't know? And I don't have a sig or avatar or relationship with any Yes organisations)

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

RE. Who votes in this President, I am not happy that Brian Cowen has the power on behalf of Ireland to make his vote as to who gets awarded the Presidency!

He is NOT even an elected Taoiseach. It's a joke that he has responsibility to vote for me and act on my behalf. It's embarrassing we have him as Taoiseach.

I'd prefer the collective will and intelligence of all of Europe to have a say on WHO this president is.

:eek: Maybe you should inform yourself a bit better before making anymore blatantly incorrect assertions. You may not realise it but Brian Cowen actually WAS elected Taoiseach by our Oireachtas just like every other Taoiseach before him. Please inform yourself before posting such mis-information.

Also we are still waiting for you to point us to a source which shows that the new mystery 'EU President' will have huge new 'powers'! Any source will do.

Tarobot

pog it wrote: »

And your signature is even all about how good a Yes vote is. I find that highly interesting.

My signature and link are a declaration of my opinion on the treaty and the organisation I work for!! If I didn't have it there, I'm sure you would be just as quick to accuse me of being misleading and devious. Hilarious.

pog it wrote: »

That's not going to gain Tarabot any Yes voters, despite what he has claimed in other posts about campaigning for a Yes and successfully persuading at least 20 on his first day out to vote Yes!

I'm female, but thanks for the assumption. Also, I do in real life what I do here and that is informing people of the facts on the Lisbon Treaty and fighting the lies of the No side (which unfortunately takes up far too much time). What you call 'hacking down' I call 'exposing spurious baseless claims'.

pog it wrote: »

In summary: Lisbon and EU presidency

1. Full time and new EXCLUSIVE President for European Council.
(I wonder what the next treaty will increase or add to that :rolleyes:)

2. Said President will NOT be elected by any ordinary citizen in Europe- i.e. you and me. It will be an inside decision.

3. The exact powers of this new President are NOT outlined in the Treaty, but they will be decided upon if/when the treaty is ratified by all member states.

It's all very alarming and very very f***KEd up.

Please people do not fall for it. We will still be a member of the EU if we vote No so don't let them make a fool and pawn of you.

1. What does 'exclusive' mean here? (We're not voting on the 'next Treaty')
2. The current President-in-Office of the European Coucil is not necessarily elected by any ordinary citizen.
3. False.

It's all very alarmist and very very incorrect.

worldclass

Hi all,

I'm not a huge participant in online forums but I love to read them

One point, I'm kinda sick of hearing people saying Lisbon 2 is "100% undemocratic" - Asking a question is NOT undemocratic and listening to concerns and addressing them is NOT undemocratic.

Proceeding with Lisbon in the face of a No Result WOULD BE undemocratic, which fortunately for us isn't the case. It's black and white people, enough with the mass paranoia and faceless misinformed opinions.

Our collective intellect is proving to be seriously diminished thanks to the many campaigners who just don't have a clue.

Regardless of what you believe, Friday will be a day of reckoning for us, Whether it's a Yes or a No, there's inevitable consequences.

Personally, A Yes makes complete sense to me for my own reasons.

THINK !!!

K-9

Would electing the EU President be better for Ireland.

2 Million voters would make us insignificant surely?

marco_polo

K-9 wrote: »

Would delecting the EU President be better for Ireland.

2 Million voters would make us insignificant surely?

Sure why not? It worked out great for us in Eurovision. Saved us milllions on hosting the damn thing every other year.

phantom_lord

pog it wrote: »

Secondly: This President is not elected by the people of Europe, or anybody in Ireland. The Boys will go into their secret rooms and decide between themselves who gets it.

Again seriously undemocratic.

our taoiseach is not elected directly by the people either. do you consider that undemocratic?

pog it

Like I said already Cowen is an unelected Taoiseach. Obviously some here did not understand that. Yes he was signed off by the Oireachtas but he is not elected by the IRISH people. He has c.25% support going by polls taken regularly. He will not be elected Taoiseach in the next General Election. He will die his death there, even if Lisbon was to be passed this second time around.

And sure if they could at all, and FF get tossed out of the Government, I'm sure they'd go get some reports done, and say, wrong answer stupid Irish people, vote again.

We voted on Lisbon already. WE said No. Why bother with a referendum and so-called democratic vote, if the only answer they will accept is Yes?

It's a disgrace and the amount of people posting on these boards representing political parties makes me sick.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Like I said already Cowen is an unelected Taoiseach. Obviously some here did not understand that. Yes he was signed off by the Oireachtas but he is not elected by the IRISH people. He has c.25% support going by polls taken regularly. He will not be elected Taoiseach in the next General Election. He will die his death there, even if Lisbon was to be passed this second time around.

And sure if they could at all, and FF get tossed out of the Government, I'm sure they'd go get some reports done, and say, wrong answer stupid Irish people, vote again.

We voted on Lisbon already. WE said No. Why bother with a referendum and so-called democratic vote, if the only answer they will accept is Yes?

It's a disgrace and the amount of people posting on these boards representing political parties makes me sick.

The opposition cannot call a General Election for obvious reasons, no matter how much research they do. And as was pointed out already we have never elected a Taoiseach before.

The amount of poster with out a basic knowledge of the current EU institutions, such as the European Council and the President of said body is what concerns me the most.

It should also be pointed out that the Government is but one of many diverse organisations that would like a yes vote.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Like I said already Cowen is an unelected Taoiseach. Obviously some here did not understand that.

No, it's you thats not understanding it. We do not vote for a Taoiseach. We did not vote for Bertie to be Taoiseach, or John Bruton or any other Taoiseach of this country.

We elect TDs and those TDs elect the Taoiseach. We usually know who the it will be when voting but we never vote for the Taoiseach, never.


Cowen was elected as TD by the people of Laois Offaly, he was elected by TDs to become Taoiseach. It's fairly straight forward.

View

Dinner wrote: »

No, it's you thats not understanding it. We do not vote for a Taoiseach. We did not vote for Bertie to be Taoiseach, or John Bruton or any other Taoiseach of this country.

We elect TDs and those TDs elect the Taoiseach. We usually know who the it will be when voting but we never vote for the Taoiseach, never.


Cowen was elected as TD by the people of Laois Offaly, he was elected by TDs to become Taoiseach. It's fairly straight forward.

It would help if the No posters at least tried to read Bunreacht na hEireann.

Maybe we should hold a referendum on it when Lisbon is over? It'd be great to hear how Bunreacht na hEireann would ushur in the Apocalypse were it to be passed...

PopeBuckfastXVI

The Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil is an unelected position, and is more comparable to the position of Council President, than the position of Taoiseach is.

pog it

Dinner wrote: »

No, it's you thats not understanding it. We do not vote for a Taoiseach. We did not vote for Bertie to be Taoiseach, or John Bruton or any other Taoiseach of this country.

We elect TDs and those TDs elect the Taoiseach. We usually know who the it will be when voting but we never vote for the Taoiseach, never.


Cowen was elected as TD by the people of Laois Offaly, he was elected by TDs to become Taoiseach. It's fairly straight forward.

We did elect Bertie Ahern. While he was Taoiseach FF got re-elected in the last election based on his being Taoiseach. It has a huge deal to do with what party gets in. So while he was Taoiseach, FF won the election to get another term in office. People voted with Bertie Ahern in mind. That is mostly why they won the election as it was seen to be Bertie V.s Kenny!

Like I said, let's see if the Irish people vote for FF with Cowen as the leader in the next election. I think you'll be surprised when you see that FF lose the next election. People have spoken. 25% is what he has ON A GOOD DAY!

Au Revoir Cowen. His political career is ****ed after the next election and no amount of your work and campaigning for him behind the scenes will save him.

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

We did elect Bertie Ahern. While he was Taoiseach FF got re-elected in the last election based on his being Taoiseach. It has a huge deal to do with what party gets in. So while he was Taoiseach, FF won the election to get another term in office. People voted with Bertie Ahern in mind. That is mostly why they won the election as it was seen to be Bertie V.s Kenny!

Like I said, let's see if the Irish people vote for FF with Cowen as the leader in the next election. I think you'll be surprised when you see that FF lose the next election. People have spoken. 25% is what he has ON A GOOD DAY!

Au Revoir Cowen. His political career is ****ed after the next election and no amount of your work and campaigning for him behind the scenes will save him.

A slight flaw is that if every Yes voter was a FF supporter wouldn't the Polls be indicating a 17% - 83% defeat for the treaty?

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

We did elect Bertie Ahern. While he was Taoiseach FF got re-elected in the last election based on his being Taoiseach. It has a huge deal to do with what party gets in. So while he was Taoiseach, FF won the election to get another term in office. People voted with Bertie Ahern in mind. That is mostly why they won the election as it was seen to be Bertie V.s Kenny!

We still didn't elect Bertie. When we voted there was an assumption that he would be Taoiseach, but we never actually voted for him to be Taoiseach.

pog it wrote: »

Au Revoir Cowen. His political career is ****ed after the next election and no amount of your work and campaigning for him behind the scenes will save him.

I'm not a member of FF, I don't campaign for FF (or indeed anyone), I have never voted for FF and am not planning on doing so anytime soon.

Once again a no voter is confusing reality with bias.

pog it

marco_polo wrote: »

A slight flaw is that if every Yes voter was a FF supporter wouldn't the Polls be indicating a 17% - 83% defeat for the treaty?

No they wouldn't.. do you see the flaw in that statement?

pog it

Dinner wrote: »

We still didn't elect Bertie. When we voted there was an assumption that he would be Taoiseach, but we never actually voted for him to be Taoiseach.



I'm not a member of FF, I don't campaign for FF (or indeed anyone), I have never voted for FF and am not planning on doing so anytime soon.

Once again a no voter is confusing reality with bias.

It is a well known fact that the leader of a party has a huge deal to do with whether or not they get elected. The people loved Bertie Ahern and no other party leader could compete with him. People are easily sucked in sometimes, and Bertie was the best at buying people and propaganding, etc.

Yes of course Obviously we do not go out and vote on the Taoiseach, more is the pity really, we'd have Gilmore and proper leadership in place here, but at the moment because we vote in a party based on its leader, that is how we elect the Taoiseach and party.

We did not elect Cowen. We do not want Cowen to be leading this country. He is incapable. And it is proof that what we need is an entitlement to a direct vote to choose our Taoiseach AND our EU President. I am not happy that Lisbon will give Cowen the power on behalf of this our country to make his political vote as to who this President will be. I want that right myself if my taxes are going to his salary. I want results as does every other citizen in this country- in Europe.

Yes politics is moving more and more away from individual countries each time with each treaty towards centralised power in Europe. Wake up.

We will still be a member of the EU if we vote no.