Lisbon's Goal: to elect an EU president

humanji

pog it wrote: »

It is a well known fact that the leader of a party has a huge deal to do with whether or not they get elected. The people loved Bertie Ahern and no other party leader could compete with him. People are easily sucked in sometimes, and Bertie was the best at buying people and propaganding, etc.

Yes of course Obviously we do not go out and vote on the Taoiseach, more is the pity really, we'd have Gilmore and proper leadership in place here, but at the moment because we vote in a party based on its leader, that is how we elect the Taoiseach and party.

We did not elect Cowen. We do not want Cowen to be leading this country. He is incapable. And it is proof that what we need is an entitlement to a direct vote to choose our Taoiseach AND our EU President. I am not happy that Lisbon will give Cowen the power on behalf of this our country to make his political vote as to who this President will be. I want that right myself if my taxes are going to his salary. I want results as does every other citizen in this country- in Europe.

Yes politics is moving more and more away from individual countries each time with each treaty towards centralised power in Europe. Wake up.

We will still be a member of the EU if we vote no.

Tell me, what does the EU president do?

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

We did not elect Cowen. We do not want Cowen to be leading this country. He is incapable. And it is proof that what we need is an entitlement to a direct vote to choose our Taoiseach AND our EU President. I am not happy that Lisbon will give Cowen the power on behalf of this our country to make his political vote as to who this President will be. I want that right myself if my taxes are going to his salary. I want results as does every other citizen in this country- in Europe.

He was, he was elected by the people of Laois-Offaly, which is all that is necessary to be a TD. He was also elected by the majority of TD's in the Dail, which is all he needs to be Taoiseahc. If you see this as wrong somehow, then your problem is with representative democracy is done in this country. And just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it undemocratic.

free-man

namloc1980 wrote: »

stop it really. Please show us where in the Lisbon Treaty this new mystery 'EU President' (actually called President of the European Council) will get new powers??

The President of the European Council will be appointed by the 27 Heads of Government who are ALL elected by the people in their respective countries. Not undemocratic in my view.

If it is of such concern to EU Citizens then why not allow them to elect the President directly?

free-man

Dinner wrote: »

He was, he was elected by the people of Laois-Offaly, which is all that is necessary to be a TD. He was also elected by the majority of TD's in the Dail, which is all he needs to be Taoiseahc. If you see this as wrong somehow, then your problem is with representative democracy is done in this country. And just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it undemocratic.

Oh come off it, the guy has no mandate, has the lowest approval rating i think in the history of a Taoiseach, how he got in doesn't matter - he needs to get out and fast.

Sam Vimes

free-man wrote: »

If it is of such concern to EU Citizens then why not allow them to elect the President directly?

If we elected the president directly then Germany, as the country with the biggest population, would get their candidate elected every single time.

Dinner

free-man wrote: »

Oh come off it, the guy has no mandate, has the lowest approval rating i think in the history of a Taoiseach, how he got in doesn't matter - he needs to get out and fast.

I agree that he should call a general election. He should do that because the public have no faith in him. But that still doesn't change the fact that he became Taoiseach through the same, perfectly legal and democratic channels, as every other Toaiseach.

I do wonder how many people oppose a second Lisbon vote calling it undemocratic to do it so soon yet would welcome a General Election half way through a term of government.

pog it

humanji wrote: »

Tell me, what does the EU president do?

Have you heard of 'Lawyers against Lisbon' group? I suggest you do a google search.
What this does is for the first time create a full time EU President/President of the E. Council, and the powers he will extract from this beyond the title and the prancing around and expenses and salary it will bestow upon him, are to be outlined after the ratification of the Treaty. The General specifics have been copied and pasted above but sadly they are cloudy and veiled and Lawyers all over Europe are saying this. It allows for a lot to happen between the lines.

You know what? I don't care what way you vote, if you are aligned to a political party, if you have been rounded up by someone to campaign here or elsewhere for a Yes vote like Tarabot has confessed to me. I am not someone who swallows political spiel as easily as some. I also am not intimidated by the scaremongering the Yes side is going on with. I am strong person who will always have my own personal character resources to fall back on and I don't need to be told by any political entity or campaigner what to do. I make up my own mind.

I have put forward my arguments, and I have answered each and every question put to me. I hope anyone reading will see my non-political stance to be 100% genuine unlike some of the spin that is going on here.

Cowen= elected TD by Laois/Offaly people
Cowen= elected Taoiseach by other TDs only
Cowen= an UNELECTED Taoiseach by the people

As will be proved in then next General Election.

Sam Vimes

pog it wrote: »

Have you heard of 'Lawyers against Lisbon' group?

I know them. I have little interest in what they have to say

pog it wrote: »

What this does is for the first time create a full time EU President/President of the E. Council, and the powers he will extract from this beyond the title and the prancing around and expenses and salary it will bestow upon him, are to be outlined after the ratification of the Treaty. The General specifics have been copied and pasted above but sadly they are cloudy and veiled and Lawyers all over Europe are saying this. It allows for a lot to happen between the lines.

He will have the same powers as the current rotating president of the EU council, ie not very much

pog it wrote: »

I also am not intimidated by the scaremongering the Yes side is going on with

But I see you are by the scaremongering on the no side, such as the scaremongering about a few procedural changes to the currently existing role of president of the European council

pog it wrote: »

Cowen= elected TD by Laois/Offaly people
Cowen= elected Taoiseach by other TDs only
Cowen= an UNELECTED Taoiseach by the people

That's how every Taoiseach has been elected

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Have you heard of 'Lawyers against Lisbon' group? I suggest you do a google search.
What this does is for the first time create a full time EU President/President of the E. Council, and the powers he will extract from this beyond the title and the prancing around and expenses and salary it will bestow upon him, are to be outlined after the ratification of the Treaty. The General specifics have been copied and pasted above but sadly they are cloudy and veiled and Lawyers all over Europe are saying this. It allows for a lot to happen between the lines.

You know what? I don't care what way you vote, if you are aligned to a political party, if you have been rounded up by someone to campaign here or elsewhere for a Yes vote like Tarabot has confessed to me. I am not someone who swallows political spiel as easily as some. I also am not intimidated by the scaremongering the Yes side is going on with. I am strong person who will always have my own personal character resources to fall back on and I don't need to be told by any political entity or campaigner what to do. I make up my own mind.

I have put forward my arguments, and I have answered each and every question put to me. I hope anyone reading will see my non-political stance to be 100% genuine unlike some of the spin that is going on here.

Cowen= elected TD by Laois/Offaly people
Cowen= elected Taoiseach by other TDs only
Cowen= an UNELECTED Taoiseach by the people

As will be proved in then next General Election.

You have already been corrected about the unchanging powers of the President of The European Council.

Repeating yourself over and over again does not an argument make.

You are now basing your argument on a collection of lawyers who are complaining that the treaty is really hard to read because it is all legal and stuff.

humanji

So basically, you have no idea what the position is for and you are guessing simply because you want it to be something "evil"?

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

What this does is for the first time create a full time EU President/President of the E. Council,

You're still having this 'President of the EU' problem. It's not president of the EU. Nothing has changed in the last 24 hours.

pog it

marco_polo wrote: »

You have already been corrected about the unchanging powers of the President of The European Council.

Repeating yourself over and over again does not an argument make.

You are now basing your argument on a collection of lawyers who are complaining that the treaty is really hard to read because it is all legal and stuff.

You are saying nothing of substance :rolleyes:

Short sentences do not persuade me that you have more information on this matter to me.

In fact you have swallowed the Yes spiel.

And I am basing my argument on many points. Please read through threads again.

K-9

pog it wrote: »

It is a well known fact that the leader of a party has a huge deal to do with whether or not they get elected. The people loved Bertie Ahern and no other party leader could compete with him. People are easily sucked in sometimes, and Bertie was the best at buying people and propaganding, etc.

Yes of course Obviously we do not go out and vote on the Taoiseach, more is the pity really, we'd have Gilmore and proper leadership in place here, but at the moment because we vote in a party based on its leader, that is how we elect the Taoiseach and party.

We did not elect Cowen. We do not want Cowen to be leading this country. He is incapable. And it is proof that what we need is an entitlement to a direct vote to choose our Taoiseach AND our EU President. I am not happy that Lisbon will give Cowen the power on behalf of this our country to make his political vote as to who this President will be. I want that right myself if my taxes are going to his salary. I want results as does every other citizen in this country- in Europe.

Yes politics is moving more and more away from individual countries each time with each treaty towards centralised power in Europe. Wake up.

We will still be a member of the EU if we vote no.

Never mind an unelected Taoiseach, we had an unelected Govt. in the mid 90's.

pog it

And cut out the bull about 'correcting' me.

I haven't been wrong.

A new EU President/President of European Council with this Treaty.
New because they will be Full-Time and no longer doing both the job of their own country and Europe.

Europe is growing you know? They need somebody to direct things and work on the EU agenda full-time

Thank God I can see the bigger picture.

Dinner

And it's still not a President of the EU. Honestly, it's the most basic problem with your posts. At least fix that one.

pog it

No. The Lisbon Treaty cannot be isolated. With each treaty the powers and structure of this President are being increased. They can't create an all encompassing powerful EU president in one go who would rival Barack Obama and have that kind of stage.

They are doing it gradually. Each Treaty adds to the powers, does not take away.

Stop isolating Lisbon. THERE IS A BIGGER PICTURE.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

With each treaty the powers and structure of this President are being increased.

Such as?

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

No. The Lisbon Treaty cannot be isolated. With each treaty the powers and structure of this President are being increased. They can't create an all encompassing powerful EU president in one go who would rival Barack Obama and have that kind of stage.

They are doing it gradually. Each Treaty adds to the powers, does not take away.

Stop isolating Lisbon. THERE IS A BIGGER PICTURE.

This treaty doesn't add to his powers at all.

This is not like wishing to get back home to Kansas, no matter how many times you say it it will not come true.

pog it

Dinner wrote: »

Such as?

Such as this time he goes from Part-time to Full-Time.
Powers decided after treaty.

AND let's see what gets added to the job in the next Treaty for the sake of 'Efficiency'.

Ah lads, I feel sorry for ye now. I do.

Dinner

pog it wrote: »

Such as this time he goes from Part-time to Full-Time.
Powers decided after treaty.

AND let's see what gets added to the job in the next Treaty for the sake of 'Efficiency'.

Ah lads, I feel sorry for ye now. I do.

So you have nothing to back up your comment about the powers being increased then?

marco_polo

pog it wrote: »

Such as this time he goes from Part-time to Full-Time.
Powers decided after treaty.

AND let's see what gets added to the job in the next Treaty for the sake of 'Efficiency'.

Ah lads, I feel sorry for ye now. I do.

The powers are defiined within the treaty very explicitly. An increase in the working hours does not qualify.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

No. The Lisbon Treaty cannot be isolated. With each treaty the powers and structure of this President are being increased. They can't create an all encompassing powerful EU president in one go who would rival Barack Obama and have that kind of stage.

They are doing it gradually. Each Treaty adds to the powers, does not take away.

Stop isolating Lisbon. THERE IS A BIGGER PICTURE.

once again please direct us to the article / chapter / paragraph of the treaty where it says the president of the european council is getting new power? also show us where in the treaty there is reference to EU President'

pog it

You don't listen to anybody except the 'Yes' advocators so why would I tell you the same thing over and over again when you won't listen and when YOUR mind is not for changing? Pure waste of my time.

There is a bigger picture which your brain fails to expand enough to foresee.

It does look like a Yes vote on Friday, and I have to say, Ireland gets what it deserves if that's the case.

It's future generations that will be disgusted at what has unfolded.

Enjoy polling day- you may just be in amongst the majority who have been sucked in, but I won't and I'm glad that at least one third of people in this country know better.

pog it

Namloc- you have made no interesting or insightful points of your own here either except giving a bit of spin and trying to make little of what I have stated.

Thanks to a couple of other posters for some more intelligent contributions at least.

namloc1980

pog it wrote: »

You don't listen to anybody except the 'Yes' advocators so why would I tell you the same thing over and over again when you won't listen and when YOUR mind is not for changing? Pure waste of my time.

There is a bigger picture which your brain fails to expand enough to foresee.

It does look like a Yes vote on Friday, and I have to say, Ireland gets what it deserves if that's the case.

It's future generations that will be disgusted at what has unfolded.

Enjoy polling day- you may just be in amongst the majority who have been sucked in, but I won't and I'm glad that at least one third of people in this country know better.

For this entire thread you have claimed that the Lisbon Treaty creates the position of 'EU President' and that this 'President' is getting new powers under Lisbon. You have not backed up your claims with any evidence at all and your continuing refusal/inability to back up your claims with any facts at all makes your points laughable.

phantom_lord

phantom_lord wrote: »

our taoiseach is not elected directly by the people either. do you consider that undemocratic?

pog it wrote: »

Like I said already Cowen is an unelected Taoiseach. Obviously some here did not understand that. Yes he was signed off by the Oireachtas but he is not elected by the IRISH people.

you obv misunderstood my post. i meant our taoiseach as in the position, not Brian Cowen in particular. I think you're the one that doesn't understood things, the irish people have never elected the taoiseach.

phantom_lord

pog it wrote: »

You don't listen to anybody except the 'Yes' advocators so why would I tell you the same thing over and over again when you won't listen and when YOUR mind is not for changing? Pure waste of my time.

lol, most of the points you've made in this thread have been corrected or have had questioned raised about them, none of which you have answered, and yet you still refuse to see sense. maybe you should take off your conspiracy theory hat and reread the thread again and apply some cold logic