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Hypothetically

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    #32
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    realcam wrote: »
    As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'
    You do realise that an internet forum is not really the real world, don't you? U
    nfortunately some don't seem to be able to tell the difference and if caught arguing away from their PC are absolutely stumped as they can't google or wiki their retorts.


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    #33
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    realcam wrote: »
    With regards to you people going to other countries and no one mentions Lisbon to you - you mustn't forget that we're politically interested people here. Prove is our very presence on this forum.
    Your average punter in England, Spain, Germany or even here in Ireland is not. The vast majority take the little political information they're interested in - if any - from their mainstream media (Sun etc, RTE at best) and thats as far it goes for most people.

    As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

    Well here's the thing, we're not being continually begged to do what politically motivated people on political boards want, we're being continually being begged to do what the apolitical disinterested masses supposedly want, and usually, coincidentally, they happen to 'want' the exact same thing as the person doing the begging.

    The fact remains, when given a vote, on the constitution or lisbon, the majority of Europeans have said yes!


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    #34
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    squod wrote: »
    FFS.....

    Again, how many countries could hypothetically vote? The indicators are that three of the five nations asked about a similar treaty rejected it.

    Project those figures however you want. So far that's the pattern or trend in voting, 3/5 nations rejecting it.

    No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #35
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    realcam wrote: »
    With regards to you people going to other countries and no one mentions Lisbon to you - you mustn't forget that we're politically interested people here. Prove is our very presence on this forum.
    Your average punter in England, Spain, Germany or even here in Ireland is not.

    Er, ta but I generally talk to people who are politically 'interested'. One of the people I talked to in Germany was a candidate in the weekend's elections. :rolleyes:. Guess what? Lisbon wasn't even a side thought with him. The French are a hugely politically interested people.


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    #36
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    Oh God................:rolleyes:


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    #37
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Justind wrote: »
    You do realise that an internet forum is not really the real world, don't you? U
    nfortunately some don't seem to be able to tell the difference and if caught arguing away from their PC are absolutely stumped as they can't google or wiki their retorts.

    I'm actually very annoyed with your comment Justin. Your attention span doesn't seem to be great. Or did you simply miss/ignore the bit where I declared this to be anecdotal evidence myself? Or don't you know what 'anecdotal' means?


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    #38
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    realcam wrote: »
    I'm actually very annoyed with your comment Justin. Your attention span doesn't seem to be great. Or did you simply miss/ignore the bit where I declared this to be anecdotal evidence myself? Or don't you know what 'anecdotal' means?

    You mentioned the "consensus" on an internet forum so you got an appropriate answer that explained my point of view on the matter.

    Annoyed? Whatever.


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    #39
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Justind wrote: »
    You mentioned the "consensus" on an internet forum so you got an appropriate answer that explained my point of view on the matter.

    Annoyed? Whatever.

    You still don't get it? Look up 'anecdotal evidence'.


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    #40
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I have only one question for this thread:
    SIXTEEN MONTHS ago, Ireland was the most popular nation in Europe. As news of our No vote spread, we were cheered across the continent. Bouquets of flowers were handed in to startled receptionists in our embassies. Crowds waved “Thank you Ireland” placards.

    Is that true or is it made up?
    Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?


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    #41
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I have only one question for this thread:



    Is that true or is it made up?
    Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

    Well I don't know about the flowers been handed to receptionists but I was in Italy a few days after the first referendum and people seemed genuinely happy that Ireland had not buckled under pressure and voted Yes, though I only spoke to people that I already knew, so not a general cross section of the population.

    On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo


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    #42
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    realcam wrote: »
    As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

    Could you link the German boards indicating this consensus please?


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    #43
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Corrected:

    "2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"


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    #44
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Corrected:

    "2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"

    What bits forced those governments to hold a referendum hatrickpatrick?


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    #45
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I have only one question for this thread:



    Is that true or is it made up?
    Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

    I didn't get any flowers, speaking for myself...


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    #46
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    prinz wrote: »
    Could you link the German boards indicating this consensus please?

    sure, have a look here for instance

    http://www.heise.de/tp/foren/S-Irland-stimmt-gegen-EU-Vertrag/forum-138982/list/


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    #47
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Well I don't know about the flowers been handed to receptionists but I was in Italy a few days after the first referendum and people seemed genuinely happy that Ireland had not buckled under pressure and voted Yes, though I only spoke to people that I already knew, so not a general cross section of the population.

    On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo

    Self selecting indicator, which is next to useless.

    Again, in actual votes, more EU Citizens voted for either the constitution or Lisbon, than voted against either.


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    #48
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Corrected:

    "2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"

    With reference to the relevant constitutitional requirements and domestic law of both countries, could you hightlight the parts of the EU Constitution that were removed in order to avoid what you believe to be the legal trigger conditions for a referendum in France and the Netherlands.


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    #49
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Is that true or is it made up?
    Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

    Good question. I have yet to find any verifiable evidence.


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    #50
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    Self selecting indicator, which is next to useless.

    Again, in actual votes, more EU Citizens voted for either the constitution or Lisbon, than voted against either.

    Out of the examples that you gave, which I appreciate =)

    Look at all of the videos about Lisbon on YouTube and see how many people call for a No vote. It may not be officially correct but it's not self-selecting either, it's a free exchange of opinion in a relatively unbiased medium


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    #51
    moogester
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭moogester


    prinz wrote: »
    Good question. I have yet to find any verifiable evidence.

    I dont suppose you'll be going out of your way to look for it either :rolleyes:


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    #52
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Out of the examples that you gave, which I appreciate =)

    Look at all of the videos about Lisbon on YouTube and see how many people call for a No vote. It may not be officially correct but it's not self-selecting either, it's a free exchange of opinion in a relatively unbiased medium

    Why would someone in a country that has ratified Lisbon, and who was happy or didn't care about it bother going online? Of course it's self selecting.


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    #53
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Well I don't know about the flowers been handed to receptionists but I was in Italy a few days after the first referendum and people seemed genuinely happy that Ireland had not buckled under pressure and voted Yes, though I only spoke to people that I already knew, so not a general cross section of the population.

    On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo

    This study rather suggests that instead of that being glued to the outcome of our referendum, the average european citizen frankly couldn't give a damn:
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_303_en.pdf

    2.3. The rejection of the Lisbon Treaty
    On 12 June 2008, Irish citizens, invited to vote in a referendum, finally rejected the Lisbon Treaty. The no vote won, with 53.4% of votes versus 46.6% who voted yes.

    As a result, the Lisbon Treaty, which was intended to replace the
    draft European constitution, was put on hold, with Europe finding itself, as in
    2005, in a kind of institutional impasse. We therefore asked European citizens what, in terms of media coverage of the European Union and in particular on the subject of Ireland, had had an impact on them in recent months

    For this we used the “open question” technique, that is to say the interviewer did not suggest any answers to the respondent, but simply noted everything that was said. The answers are then reencoded. A relative majority of respondents declared that they had not read, seen or heard anything on this subject (28%) or felt unable to answer the question (28%). Only 16% of European citizens answered “the rejection of the Treaty of Lisbon by the Irish”. It is also worth noting that 8% evoked the subject by answering “the referendum in Ireland”, 4% by mentioning “the need to hold a new referendum in Ireland” and 3% by mentioning “a halt in the building of Europe”.


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    #54
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    My name is URL wrote: »
    On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo

    Certainly an indicator that type of people who leave political comments on Youtube are against the treaty. A lot of those types tend to have very extreme views on both the left and the right.

    Just looking back to the recent German election. The Lisbon treaty was not a major issue in the campaign. This was also the case during the European Parliament votes. As I mentioned earlier, that indicates to me the this is largely an non-issue. I'm sure there some across the EU as there are here that are very engaged in EU politics. However the vast majority of people in Europe reject anti Lisbon parties at election time and vote for pro-Lisbon parties.


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    #55
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    moogester wrote: »
    I dont suppose you'll be going out of your way to look for it either :rolleyes:

    I've checked the first 3 pages of google for:

    lisbon irish embassy flowers

    The only results relating to this apparent delivering of flowers to embassy staff contain the following sentence:

    "Bouquets of flowers were handed in to startled receptionists in our embassies"

    Look familiar? Sounds like unsubstantiated b*ll**** to me.

    And what if it was true? What if some neo-nazi loon in romania picked a few posies and handed them into an embassy. What does that actually say about the opinions of Europe.

    I've presented real figures, Ganleys presented imaginary flowers.

    I'll leave the rest up to you.


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    #56
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    realcam wrote: »
    As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'
    realcam wrote: »
    sure, have a look here for instance

    http://www.heise.de/tp/foren/S-Irland-stimmt-gegen-EU-Vertrag/forum-138982/list/

    You see, the one you linked here is June 2008... they didn't even know there would be a second referendum, how could the consensus be what you said it was above?


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    #57
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    moogester wrote: »
    I dont suppose you'll be going out of your way to look for it either :rolleyes:

    Actually I have been. The only thing I can find is crowds celebrating the accession. Ironic huh?


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    #58
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    prinz wrote: »
    You see, the one you linked here is June 2008... they didn't even know there would be a second referendum, how could the consensus be what you said it was above?

    I said 'have a look around' there.

    It's 'Telepolis', a political online magazine with attached forums. It's very active with regards to civil liberties and also with regards to the European Integration.

    I linked a particular article which was an immediate feedback to the first referendum which I thought was an excellent starting point. There is of course other, more recent articles.

    And of course I called it myself 'anecdotal evidence'. While 'Telepolis' certainly does not have an extremists reputation it's also not exactly Angelas party forum.


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    #59
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    Likely to be close to politics.ie in it's make up relative to the general population in your opinion realcam?


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    #60
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    Likely to be close to politics.ie in it's make up relative to the general population in your opinion realcam?

    Not sure to be honest. Not hanging around politics.ie much myself.

    Edit: Honest opinion on 'Telepolis'. Probably youngish enough (majority <35) and more center-left than anything else. The forum gets fairly diverse opinions though.


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    #61
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    realcam wrote: »
    I said 'have a look around' there.


    No, you said "have a look here"..... and proceeded to link one, old, pretty small section on the first referendum. Now what I want to see is a link showing what you actually claimed was the up to date current consensus.

    For a poltical magazine the Treaty of Lisbon/Ireland is hardly mentioned :confused: How odd. I get only 18 mentions. Wouldn't you like to add that it's more of an IT focused outlet?


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