Hypothetically

Euro_Kraut

realcam wrote: »

Edit: Honest opinion on 'Telepolis'. Probably youngish enough (majority <35) and more center-left than anything else. The forum gets fairly diverse opinions though.

A lot Die Linke supporters than? They are opposed to Lisbon from what I remember.

I did post another article from Germany on the Lisbon Treaty a week or so ago. The far right (like in Ireland) are opposed to Lisbon.

Realcam, this do you reckon that if there was a referendum in Germany you could end up with an NO from the old East German states (given the strength of Die Linke and the NPD in parts) and a YES from the West?

I recognise its hypothetical, but given the thread title that makes it on-topic!

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

No, you said "have a look here"..... and proceeded to link one, old, pretty small section on the first referendum. Now what I want to see is a link showing what you actually claimed was the up to date current consensus.

For a poltical magazine the Treaty of Lisbon/Ireland is hardly mentioned How odd. I get only 18 mentions. Wouldn't you like to add that it's more of an IT focused outlet?

Heise.de is an IT outlet yes. However, 'Telepolis' is a political magazine hosted by Heise.

As I said its anecdotal evidence.

I have to go for some 5 a side footie now but I will get you something more appropriate later. I just can't find the thread I had in mind now, gone from my history.

Boskowski

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

A lot Die Linke supporters than? They are opposed to Lisbon from what I remember.

I did post another article from Germany on the Lisbon Treaty a week or so ago. The far right (like in Ireland) are opposed to Lisbon.

Realcam, this do you reckon that if there was a referendum in Germany you could end up with an NO from the old East German states (given the strength of Die Linke and the NPD in parts) and a YES from the West?

I recognise its hypothetical, but given the thread title that makes it on-topic!

I don't think there would be a lot of Die Linke supporters there. A lot of us former 'westerners' a still highly skeptical of 'Die Linke' because of its involvement with the remains of the former eastern socialist party. Not necessarily me but a lot of us are. Probably a lot of disillusioned former SPD & Green Party supporters there. Remember the German Green Party has a very different background to the Green Party here. Originally they were genuine enough but most people would think that over the years they have been corrupted by power and the system too.

prinz

realcam wrote: »

I will get you something more appropriate later. I just can't find the thread I had in mind now, gone from my history.

The general consensus amongst germans interested in politics and yet you've got one single thread on a site in mind Surely a quick search could throw up any number of these posts/threads/fora? Speaks volumes.

squod

prinz wrote: »

The general consensus amongst germans interested in politics and yet you've got one single thread on a site in mind Surely a quick search could throw up any number of these posts/threads/fora? Speaks volumes.

How 'bout you, care to contribute at all?

prinz

squod wrote: »

How 'bout you, care to contribute at all?

Nope, I'll await the back up to what realcam said thanks. He made the claim.

Daftendirekt

I'm also slightly curious to know what an opinion poll would say about the general consensus on Lisbon.

I'd imagine you'd have the majority in the Don't Know category, for obvious reasons.

You'd have a tiny minority of Yes and No's who are opposed to or in favour of the treaty because of an actual interest in EU politics, and an understanding of the text itself.

The balance would be swayed towards a No however, because the extremists and Eurosceptics would inevitably come down on the No side.

Of course, this is just opinion, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. But I think the lack of an opinion poll shows the disinterest of the other member states' media in Lisbon. And the lack of interest of the media seems indicative of a lack of interest from the general population.

My name is URL

Daftendirekt wrote: »

But I think the lack of an opinion poll shows the disinterest of the other member states' media in Lisbon. And the lack of interest of the media seems indicative of a lack of interest from the general population.

Or perhaps a lack of willingness from other governments to delve into the matters contained in the treaty so as to make ratifying them easier and with less protest from the public.

Ya never know!

I wonder how many nations have actually sent out info to households about the Treaty, or have a good system for dealing with queries..

hatrickpatrick

To come back to what I was saying earlier, on page 256 of this PDF, all the differences between Lisbon and the constitution are listed in red.

http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf

There are, as you can see, 6 differences. Out of 448 items.

But yeah. We're clearly not voting on the same thing that was already rejected by the French and Dutch (we are voting on the same thing that was rejected by the Irish of course but that doesn't matter apparently)

moogester

Daughter of referendum case winner urges ‘No’ vote

Evening Echo 30/09/2009 - 16:02:46

The daughter of the man who secured the right of Irish people to vote on EU treaties today urged the electorate to reject the latest reform package.

More than 20 years ago the late Raymond Crotty won a case against the Irish Government which meant any EU rules that impacted on Ireland’s constitution must be approved by the people.

Mary Crotty said her father’s win has resulted in less than four million Irish people voting on behalf of half a billion Europeans on the Lisbon Treaty.

She maintains lawyers who worked on his case believe that, if implemented, the Lisbon Treaty will be Ireland’s last EU-related referendum.

“My father Raymond Crotty took the Irish Government to the Supreme Court in 1987 because that Government attempted to introduce the Single European Act without giving the people of Ireland a vote in the referendum,” said Ms Crotty.

“It is because of that Supreme Court ruling that we now have a vote in the Lisbon Treaty.“

“Ironically because of the Crotty case the Irish people get to vote twice on Lisbon while the rest of Europe get no vote at all.“

“Because this Treaty is so extensive I’ve no doubt that if passed it will be the last referendum the Irish people will have on Europe.”

Ms Crotty spoke out as part of the Women Say No To Lisbon camp, which includes 42 female politicians and activists.

However, she stressed she was concerned as a wife and mother of four, and had no political affiliation.

Elsewhere, in Dublin’s Buswell’s Hotel several other groups made a last ditch attempt to convince the electorate to vote ‘No’ on Friday.

The People’s Movement, the Irish Fishermen’s Organisation and Farmers for a No Vote held a joint press conference in the shadow of the Dáil to urge voters to reject the EU reform deal.

Caitlin Ui Aoghla said fishing was one of the industries that has seen first-hand what bad European policies do.

“Fishing has suffered, it is one of our indigenous industries, it is one of the industries where we’ve actually seen how the big boys dish out the share,” she said.

“We are concerned that Lisbon further consolidates all the bad policies the EU has done up to now.”

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

The general consensus amongst germans interested in politics and yet you've got one single thread on a site in mind Surely a quick search could throw up any number of these posts/threads/fora? Speaks volumes.

If a quick search could throw up something why don't you do it yourself?

Here you go

http://www.welt.de/politik/article3957382/Iren-stimmen-noch-mal-ueber-EU-Reformvertrag-ab.html

Edit: You could try and be a little less condescending, re: 'Speaks volumes'? For starters I said 'anecdotal evidence' meaning 'for what its worth' . Secondly why would I come here and claim such a thing if it was totally makey uppey? Why would I care what you guys think what my fellow countrymen think about (y)ourselves and the referendum? It's not that this is going to swing it either way is it?

prinz

realcam wrote: »

If a quick search could throw up something why don't you do it yourself?

Surely you don't ask your opponents to back up your points? :eek: If you're willing to say something at least be willing to provide some back up.

realcam wrote: »

Here you go
http://www.welt.de/politik/article3957382/Iren-stimmen-noch-mal-ueber-EU-Reformvertrag-ab.html

So an article about the second referendum and a handful of comments along the usual lines of the new world order etc. :rolleyes:. These really are the most politically informed of Germans obviously.

realcam wrote: »

Why would I care what you guys think what my fellow countrymen think about (y)ourselves and the referendum? It's not that this is going to swing it either way is it?

Simple. It provides legitimacy to the people like Declan Ganley who say things like all across Europe crowds of people celebrated our no vote, waving placards and the such. Unfortunately/fortunately depending on your view there has been no evidence of this, whatsoever provided.

When Libertas has to rely on connections likes the AUF Partei and Eva Herman I begin to wonder do they have populist support on their No to Lisbon platform at all. How did they do in the elections I wonder..

hatrickpatrick

Not to sidetrack the debate, but that "Women Say No To Lisbon" leaflet did have one worrying passage in it:

In addition, Article 136 strengthens the EU’s powers to set policy for member states
who don’t adhere to the Stability and Growth Pact – the reason for the cuts
proposed by Colm McCarthy. This means more pressure to cut public spending.

Is that true, in fact?

namloc1980

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not to sidetrack the debate, but that "Women Say No To Lisbon" leaflet did have one worrying passage in it:



Is that true, in fact?

Article 136
1. In order to ensure the proper functioning of economic and monetary union, and in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties, the Council shall, in accordance with the relevant procedure from among those referred to in Articles 121 and 126, with the exception of the procedure set out in Article 126(14), adopt measures specific to those Member States whose currency is the euro:
(a) to strengthen the coordination and surveillance of their budgetary discipline;
(b) to set out economic policy guidelines for them, while ensuring that they are compatible with those adopted for the whole of the Union and are kept under surveillance.

prinz

Looks to me like less of a need for McCarthy like cuts in the future. Which can only be a good thing. Our finances have been woefully mismanaged for quite a while.

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

Surely you don't ask your opponents to back up your points? :eek: If you're willing to say something at least be willing to provide some back up.



So an article about the second referendum and a handful of comments along the usual lines of the new world order etc. :rolleyes:. These really are the most politically informed of Germans obviously.



Simple. It provides legitimacy to the people like Declan Ganley who say things like all across Europe crowds of people celebrated our no vote, waving placards and the such. Unfortunately/fortunately depending on your view there has been no evidence of this, whatsoever provided.

When Libertas has to rely on connections likes the AUF Partei and Eva Herman I begin to wonder do they have populist support on their No to Lisbon platform at all. How did they do in the elections I wonder..

Listen Prinz. From the very start I said its anecdotal evidence and I said it again several times.

I have backed up what I stated earlier - what u asked me to do - and if you don't like it I don't care.
While you may have some German language skills you obviously don't have much of an idea about the political scene in Germany. The second link isn't anything about conspiracy stuff. This is 'Die Welt' for christs sake and the article drew about 16 pages of comments. 'Die Welt' are conservative mainstream, but certainly not tabloid and are probably the equivalent of media close to FF here and even their readers expressed disgust at how a second referendum makes a mockery of the democratic processes and how the poll should stand and hopefully the Irish will do it again.
Again this doesn't mean much, but what does - unless we had official polls all over Europe? Again this is in line with what I said from the very start.
I'm not trying to prove anything. What it proves however is that there is more than just isolated support for a 'No' in German political online forums - from the left and also from the right. For what its worth.

P.S. Only for this forum I wouldn't even know who that Ganley fella is. I think you're getting carried away a bit trying to discredit everything and everyone who says something at all against the Prinz party line. You're doing a Don Quichote here with me, fighting windmills, because I wouldn't even think myself that there was widespread jubilation in Europe. I do think however that there is what I stated.

Euro_Kraut

Some other coverage from the German speaking media:

Pictures of the first people voting today on the Islands

Der Spiegel seem to fascinated that the Catholics vote is still a factor in Irish politics

Good article from Veinnas Der Standard