Vote 'Yes' for President Tony Blair?

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drunkmonkey wrote: »

You've complelty missed the point:rolleyes:
There were no insurgents in Iraq before Blair and Bush pushed through an illegal war with fabricated evidence. They both should be put to death but judging by Tonys Blairs apperance he's already haunted by the deaths of hundreds & thousands of innocent people. He's a war criminal and i'm disgusted somebody could even suggest he play a key role in this New Europe were trying to build.

Most people agree that Blair's chances of being President of the EU Council are essentially nil at this stage. The role is apparently most likely to go to an EPP politican, who almost definitely will be a current Head of Government.

drunkmonkey

prinz wrote: »

Do you know what happened in Halabjah, and who was responsible? :rolleyes:

So what that gives justification to send in the crew behind agent orange to make things better? gtfo:rolleyes:

Oh and it worked as well, the worlds a safer place and the iraq people are much happier.

Halabjah is only a blip compared to the atrocities carried out by the UK & USA, they have no right to take the moral high round.

prinz

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So what that gives justification to send in the crew behind agent orange to make things better? gtfo:rolleyes:..

Did ridding Europe of Nazism give justification to the allied invasion of Europe and the countless civilians deaths that ensued? Yes.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Oh and it worked as well, the worlds a safer place and the iraq people are much happier..

Er yes. Perhaps you should check out the many opinion polls etc carried out in Iraq which show exactly that. The majority of Iraqis supported the removal of Hussein's regime, and there is widespread support for the current Iraqi administration.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Halabjah is only a blip compared to the atrocities carried out by the UK & USA, they have no right to take the moral high round.

Did you just describe the mass murder of thousands of men, women and children as a "blip", wow I see where your moral high ground really is.

Anywho all off topic. If you don't want Blair to get the job, fine. I don't either tbh, but enough of the high horse nonsense.

drunkmonkey

prinz wrote: »

Perhaps you should check out the many opinion polls etc carried out in Iraq which show exactly that. The majority of Iraqis supported the removal of Hussein's regime.

Did you just describe the mass murder of thousands of men, women and children as a "blip", wow I see where your moral high ground really is.

If you don't want Blair to get the job, fine. I don't either tbh, but enough of the high horse nonsense.

The opinion polls didn't include the subtext do you mind if we kill a lot of ye along the way, i'm sure there would have been a different outcome if they knew exactly what was about to happen..

It was a blip compared to the jaunts of the USA.

Glad we agree on Tony, pity it's for opposite reasons..

prinz

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The opinion polls didn't include the subtext do you mind if we kill a lot of ye along the way, i'm sure there would have been a different outcome if they knew exactly what was about to happen....

Do you think Saddam allowed opinion polls in Iraq on whether or not he should be ousted? These are polls taken afterwards in the full knowledge of what has occured since.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It was a blip compared to the jaunts of the USA....

That's just a bit sad really, obviously you don't give a crap about lives being lost, it's just another anti-American rant.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Glad we agree on Tony, pity it's for opposite reasons..

Meh, there are people better suited for the job than him.

drunkmonkey

prinz wrote: »

Do you think Saddam allowed opinion polls in Iraq on whether or not he should be ousted? These are polls taken afterwards in the full knowledge of what has occured since.


That's just a bit sad really, obviously you don't give a crap about lives being lost, it's just another anti-American rant.


Meh, there are people better suited for the job than him.

I think that Iraq could have been heading in the right direction, It had a world calss education system that if allowed to develop would have eventually forced a change of goverment from inside rather than being forced upon them by shock and awe...

I wouldn't belive anything reported by the media from Iraq, there at war, have you ever heard of propaganda or did you think it's was gospel...

It's not another anti american rant, the americans have killed more people than Saddam could ever dream about, his execution just went to prove they wanted him silenced just in case he ever had the chance to tell the truth about who was funding him and his motivation.

Meh, I think Tony Blair is the Anti Christ that's why I wouldn't vote for him.

sceptre

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Meh, I think Tony Blair is the Anti Christ

Your standards are low.

prinz

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think that Iraq could have been heading in the right direction, It had a world calss education system that if allowed to develop would have eventually forced a change of goverment from inside rather than being forced upon them by shock and awe....

World class education system? Any independent links rating education systems that puts Iraq anywhere close to the summit?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I wouldn't belive anything reported by the media from Iraq, there at war, have you ever heard of propaganda or did you think it's was gospel....

You can check independent opinion polls if you like. Non-aligned NGO's etc.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Meh, I think Tony Blair is the Anti Christ that's why I wouldn't vote for him.

Fair enough.

drunkmonkey

prinz wrote: »

World class education system? Any independent links rating education systems that puts Iraq anywhere close to the summit?

Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Iraq

7 million Americans are illiterate, 27 million are unable to read well enough to complete a job application and 30 million can't read a simple sentence. That gives them an illererate rate of about 24% which isn't far off Ireland.

Facts prove the Iraq people were better educated than the americans and most probably the brits.

akkadian

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Iraq

7 million Americans are illiterate, 27 million are unable to read well enough to complete a job application and 30 million can't read a simple sentence. That gives them an illererate rate of about 24% which isn't far off Ireland.

Facts prove the Iraq people were better educated than the americans and most probably the brits.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_lit-education-mathematical-literacy

actually the above site is rapidly losing basic credibility as it seems to have old stats and actually makes America look a lot better than it is these days.

Having said that Ireland is still ahead of the US in Math literacy according to that link

Kama

Iraq performed highly in education and healthcare provision; my understanding is that this was in no way due to the munificence of Saddam personally, more an established feature of public investment of oil revenues into public good provision that he 'inherited' from his predecessors.

Halabjah is only a blip compared to the atrocities carried out by the UK & USA, they have no right to take the moral high round.

As to the atrocities of Halabja the Iran/Iraq War generally, it seems quite clear: so long as you are 'our son of a b*tch', Rumsfeld will shake your hand, you'll be taken off the Terrorist list, we'll sell you the copters and chems, etc. The issue with Halabja, as elsewhere, lies in the hypocritical realpolitik of American regimes compared with their enunciated values, and the reconstruction of memory: at the time, Halabja was played down by the State Department and media, since Iraq was the 'Good Guy' against Iran. Once he became the 'Bad Guy', suddenly everyone remembers Halabja. The only thing worse than genocide is the cynical manipulation of that genocide for political ends, tbqfh.

prinz

Kama wrote: »

Iraq performed highly in education and healthcare provision; my understanding is that this was in no way due to the munificence of Saddam personally, more an established feature of public investment of oil revenues into public good provision that he 'inherited' from his predecessors.

+1, add in the fact that public investment rapidly decreased when Saddam thought it could be better put to use in buying arms etc.

Kama wrote: »

...Once he became the 'Bad Guy', suddenly everyone remembers Halabja. The only thing worse than genocide is the cynical manipulation of that genocide for political ends, tbqfh.

+1 on this to a certain extent. The international community as got a brutal track record in the entire area to be sure. America supplied, trained and armed different groupings at different times, including Saddam, the mujaheddin etc, this is true. The most shocking aspect of this is the disappearance of aid when it is needed most - i.e. when the war has been won. It happened in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal, it happened most terribly in Iraq, post the first Gulf War,when the Americans incited uprisings, particularly by the Kurds, and then left them to face the wrath of Saddam alone. Saddam should have been taken down in the first Gulf War, however he wasn't.

However that doesn't give him a lifetime pass to do whatever he wants. The fact that western powers have acted appallingly in the past has no bearing on whether they do the right thing in the present. Two wrongs don't make a right. The only constant factor between Halabjah and Blair etc is Saddam. You cannot hold Blair responsible for the actions of people who went before him. You might as well call Merkel the anti-christ because of what Hitler did. Removing Saddam was the right thing to do.

prinz

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Iraq
7 million Americans are illiterate, 27 million are unable to read well enough to complete a job application and 30 million can't read a simple sentence. That gives them an illererate rate of about 24% which isn't far off Ireland.
Facts prove the Iraq people were better educated than the americans and most probably the brits.

....from your own linked source

Because of under-funding by the Hussein regime, in 2003 an estimated 80 percent of Iraq’s 15,000 school buildings needed rehabilitation and lacked basic sanitary facilities, and most schools lacked libraries and laboratories... Prior to the occupation of 2003, some 240,000 persons were enrolled in institutions of higher education. In 2000 the literacy rate was 55 percent for males and 23 percent for females.

Which leaves illiteracy rates at 45 and 77 percent respectively. What did you claim the US was, 24%? and somehow from that you deduced that "facts prove" Iraqi literacy was higher than the American rate?

drunkmonkey

prinz wrote: »

Which leaves illiteracy rates at 45 and 77 percent respectively. What did you claim the US was, 24%? and somehow from that you deduced that "facts prove" Iraqi literacy was higher than the American rate?

holy lord lamping jazus I meant before the Iraq wars, Desert Storm etc, of course the education system was going to suffer in war time.

prinz

drunkmonkey wrote: »

holy lord lamping jazus I meant before the Iraq wars, Desert Storm etc, of course the education system was going to suffer in war time.

Then you really have to go back to before Saddam's time when the Iraqi education system was at it's peak. And well that defeats the purpose of the point you were trying to make.

meglome

Much ado about nothing really.

PopeBuckfastXVI

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

In my opinion, no. Regardless of Blairs merits or otherwise, I believe the first council president will be from one of the smaller states, for purely political reasons.

Boom!