Tallymen

Sully

Can someone give me a rough run down on how one performs the task of a tallymen in a referendum? I assume its just simply a matter of observing the count and marking (in 5s) each Yes/No/Spoiled vote?

Avns1s

Got it in 1

Normally, the tallymen are assigned by the parties / candidates.

Generally as each box is opened, two officials will open out the votes and place them facing the tallypeople. Two tally people normally tally each box therefore. Each person calculates the outcome of their own side if the votes and the results from both sides are added together to give an overall tally of the box.

Sully

So they are tallied during the split into Yes/No/Spoiled bundles, with one from both sides (Yes/No) at each box? What about two from one side at a box? How does one not get confused as to which tally mark is for what side?

Some count centres will be more helpful than others and open the votes facing the tallymen, and go at a speed that ensures they see every vote. Have only tallied at local and general elections where one tallyman might call out each vote, which helps. When its only a yes/no that would seem to be a bit ott.

nuac

Main parties have people experienced in this. Main requirements are

1. reasonably good eyesight
2. reasonable height for leaning over barriers
3. good concentration
4 willing to stay at job until all boxes opened, rather than running around the hall looking for "trends" or results from your local box.
5 ability to mark tally sheet properly for your half of the box and note the totals of your colleague without confusing matters - accounting for possible spoiled votes, votes missed, writing in number of box and polling location.

two per box best, each marking what one of the two counters is opening.

parties either individually or jointly collate on a computer and issue print outs.

Once was in charge of a tally that got a candidate's vote in excess of 7000 just one vote out from official result, and that was before computers were in use.

murphaph

A (almost) uniquely irish affair which should be eliminated with the binning of the STV system. It's outdated and does not serve the people well. Time for PR List.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

It's outdated and does not serve the people well.

But it's not really meant to serve the people.

It's as useful as, say, people predicting the result of tomorrow's referendum. It merely reflects the interest some people have in Ireland in elections. I can't possibly see how anyone could object to a volunteer's wish to see a count and to participate to a tiny degree in the process, though I'm sure plenty have other things they'd rather do.

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

But it's not really meant to serve the people.

It's as useful as, say, people predicting the result of tomorrow's referendum. It merely reflects the interest some people have in Ireland in elections. I can't possibly see how anyone could object to a volunteer's wish to see a count and to participate to a tiny degree in the process, though I'm sure plenty have other things they'd rather do.

I mean PRSTV itself is outdated, not the tallying of votes.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

I mean PRSTV itself is outdated, not the tallying of votes.

Ah.

nuac

Suggest the STVPR system does serve the public well.

Far more responsive that the Single first past hte post system used in the UK

Enables an electorate, especially in a larger say five seater constituency, to h ave a better say in who will represent them.

Do not agree with the list system - gives too much power to party suits.

murphaph

PRSTV has led to a Dail primarily fixated on local issues. Political parties aren't a problem in themselves-the irish experience of them however has been negative.

The Dail is not there to get potholes fixed or hips replaced. It ha to grow up and become a mature parliament some day.

There's a reason that almost nobody else uses STV. I feel it leads to far too much "one upmanship" between TDs in the same constituency and in it's current incarnation means we have WAY too many TDs in the first place. 166 TDs for 4.5m people compared to 600 odd MPs for 60m in the UK and 625 MPs for 88m+ germans.

Ireland really needs to move away from the parochial nature of it's politics. I know they say all politics is local but Ireland takes it to a different level. People in Germany don't write to their MP to get a pothole fixed (and why should they?) they write to the council etc. (ie, the people whose job it is to fix potholes).

If your TD is spending a lot of times on local issues then he's not performing his primary function-Dail Eireann is the legislature-they should be sorting out our bad laws and writing new, better ones. That's what the legislature is supposed to do-legislate!

Enduro

There is one problem with Tallymen. It gives gombeen politicians the information about what areas they garnered their votes from. With the result that the likes of Ned O'Keefe (Gombeen extroardinaire) doesn't support a community in his constituancy which wants improved school facilities, because he know he got little or no votes from that community.

TDs should be elected to serve their constituents (and moreso the entire country), not just those who voted for them. If they all behaved like Ned then it would be better to ban tallying, or at least make it impossible to tell what boxes the votes being tallied came from.

Capt'n Midnight

nuac wrote: »

Far more responsive that the Single first past hte post system used in the UK

Enables an electorate, especially in a larger say five seater constituency, to h ave a better say in who will represent them.

Do not agree with the list system - gives too much power to party suits.

Just to add to that in the UK ,UKIP and Greens together got 25% of the vote in the EU elections and got ZERO seats in the national elections.


Tallymen are a check that we would not have with eVoting,

Capt'n Midnight

Enduro wrote: »

There is one problem with Tallymen. It gives gombeen politicians the information about what areas they garnered their votes from.

IIRC that information is given out anyway

Enduro

Enduro wrote: »

It gives gombeen politicians the information about what areas they garnered their votes from.

So like maybe Barack Obama drew all his support from the Bible belt after all, and Sarkozy got millions of votes in Algerian ghettoes, 'cos without the tallymen in other countries sheesh they just have no way of telling who or where they got those votes! And that's why Obama is spending all his time pushing issues that voters in the Bible belt want, while Sarkozy is telling Algerians he wants to see them out protesting...

Enduro

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

IIRC that information is given out anyway

From what source? Down to Ballot box (i.e polling station) level of geographic accuracy? (Which was the level of accuracy the bould Ned needed to decide not to represent a particular group of his constituents).

So like maybe Barack Obama drew all his support from the Bible belt after all, and Sarkozy got millions of votes in Algerian ghettoes, 'cos without the tallymen in other countries sheesh they just have no way of telling who or where they got those votes! And that's why Obama is spending all his time pushing issues that voters in the Bible belt want, while Sarkozy is telling Algerians he wants to see them out protesting...

What are you talking about? That kind of broad-brush information can be gleaned from focus groups / opinion polls. It's simply not possible to get the kind of precise polling station level of geopgraphic accuracy reffered to above using those methods (in the real world). Can you not see that in the example I used above, the only realistic way that Ned O'Keefe could have gotten that information is from the Tallies.

Enduro

Enduro wrote: »

the only realistic way that Ned O'Keefe could have gotten that information is from the Tallies.

That information could be obtained from anyone who keeps an eye on the count, it need not be a tallyman.

A much easier way to avoid your scenario would be not to announce the source of each box of votes, rather than preventing people from observing the count process.

Enduro

Something like the situation that caused Declan Ganley to hold up the count in the west constituency in the Euro polls, whereby all the boxes were emptied into a big container first, destroying the record of their geographic origin? It would definitly counter the gombeen politician problem alright.

sceptre

Enduro wrote: »

Something like the situation that caused Declan Ganley to hold up the count in the west constituency in the Euro polls, whereby all the boxes were emptied into a big container first, destroying the record of their geographic origin? It would definitly counter the gombeen politician problem alright.

I'd definitely support that. Ned O'Keeffe is being used as an example but this kind of feudal system-style reward and penalty has been practised by many parties for years. It might not be the best solution but it's certainly a solution and in my view an adequate and inexpensive one to avoid the problem.

Sully

Well I did the tallying today anyway, all went well. Though trying to monitor two counters was proving difficult, considering she was holding the votes close to her chest.

asdasd

I mean PRSTV itself is outdated, not the tallying of votes.

It is the holy grail of PR systems. The "list" is an abomination, a charter for top down democracy. ~Which is not the real thing.

asdasd

That said we could learn about federalism from Germany ( which learned it from the US). And let councils fund themselves.