more pistol nonsense

rowa

i was talking to someone tonight who went to renew there firearms certs, including one for a centrefire pistol and was promptly told by the guard at the desk that there would be no licences issued for centrefires as they weren't to olympic standards , he has his licence a few years now so he's not a post nov 08 shooter , when pressed the guard said the super was the one who didn't want to issue them , they also tried to say that his ruger mk 3 is a restricted firearm and ditto his .243 , he pointed out the list on the gardai website and the guard got a bit thick over things .

i thought this is the sort of rubbish that this last bill was supposed to irradicate or is it normal service resumed with a new set of rules ?

rrpc

rowa wrote: »

i was talking to someone tonight who went to renew there firearms certs, including one for a centrefire pistol and was promptly told by the guard at the desk that there would be no licences issued for centrefires as they weren't to olympic standards , he has his licence a few years now so he's not a post nov 08 shooter , when pressed the guard said the super was the one who didn't want to issue them , they also tried to say that his ruger mk 3 is a restricted firearm and ditto his .243 , he pointed out the list on the gardai website and the guard got a bit thick over things .

i thought this is the sort of rubbish that this last bill was supposed to irradicate or is it normal service resumed with a new set of rules ?

It's unfortnately the case that Gardai have in many districts got little more than a half hour briefing and undoubtedly that was rushed and garbled at best.

End result, the 'if you don't know, make it up' rule is being fallen back on, so I'm not surprised to hear your mates' story.

The only difference is that now there's a route by which these little hiccups can be mended without people haing to resort to lawyers at dawn .

Call your NGB and have them talk to the FPU etc.

foxshooter243

rrpc wrote: »

It's unfortnately the case that Gardai have in many districts got little more than a half hour briefing and undoubtedly that was rushed and garbled at best.

End result, the 'if you don't know, make it up' rule is being fallen back on, so I'm not surprised to hear your mates' story.

The only difference is that now there's a route by which these little hiccups can be mended without people haing to resort to lawyers at dawn .

Call your NGB and have them talk to the FPU etc.

I reckon thats the problem!..luckily the guy in our station is singing from the same hymnbook as the system demands..and understands it quite well..but ive been hearing horror stories from other stations:(

bunny shooter

Got a phone call from my FO last night.

My 4 x re-applications have been returned by the super :eek:

I have 1 x 12g and 3 x rifles.

.22lr for target & rabbits
.220 swift for foxes & target
.303 for target
12g for game, vermin & clay pigeon

I gave copies of membership cards 2 x game shooting clubs and Midlands range

Super is requesting "proof of competitions I have been in and level of same"

Seems plinking will not be tolerated even on an approved range :rolleyes:

So for me things are WORSE than before

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Got a phone call from my FO last night.

My 4 x re-applications have been returned by the super :eek:

I have 1 x 12g and 3 x rifles.

.22lr for target & rabbits
.220 swift for foxes & target
.303 for target
12g for game, vermin & clay pigeon

I gave copies of membership cards 2 x game shooting clubs and Midlands range

Super is requesting "proof of competitions I have been in and level of same"

Seems plinking will not be tolerated even on an approved range :rolleyes:

So for me things are WORSE than before

You know what to do bunny, you're a member of the NARGC at least, so you should be on to them to get it sorted tout de suite.

It's been accepted that existing holders need only state the fact that they've held a licence for over a year for proof of competence to be accepted.

Your Super is totally in the wrong and has misunderstood the new laws. He's trying to retrospectively introduce stuff that's only been in force since the beginning of August.

Don't even attempt to acquiesce to his ignorance, get it dealt with, if not for yourself at least for the sake of other guys in your district.

ranger4

bunny shooter wrote: »

Got a phone call from my FO last night.

My 4 x re-applications have been returned by the super :eek:

I have 1 x 12g and 3 x rifles.

.22lr for target & rabbits
.220 swift for foxes & target
.303 for target
12g for game, vermin & clay pigeon

I gave copies of membership cards 2 x game shooting clubs and Midlands range

Super is requesting "proof of competitions I have been in and level of same"

Seems plinking will not be tolerated even on an approved range :rolleyes:

So for me things are WORSE than before

Getting more and more like a dictatorship state every week, FFS, Surley Licenced holders who are members of target-gun clubs have the right to choose what and how many competitions they enter, If super gets snotty explain that you often have friendly shoot with other members in the club, this type of bull ****e really boils my piss.

rrpc

Just want to add that there's an FCP meeting next week and it's absolutely vital that people with experiences like bunny's should make them known to their NGB as soon as possible.

We can't do stuff for you if we don't know about it, so don't be shy, email, phone, text, smoke signals, carrier pigeon, whatever: get in touch with the full details of the problem and the district concerned.

Most of the issues I've heard have been training ones, as in there hasn't been any/adequate/proper training of the people dealing with the applications.

In some respects this is to be expected: There's so much volume of new legislation hitting at the same time and Gardai don't have their own version of boards to ask questions on

So if you get a response that you don't believe is correct, make that phone call or write that email and let us know. There's a system in place, let's use it; it does work.

rrpc

ranger4 wrote: »

Getting more and more like a dictatorship state every week, FFS, Surley Licenced holders who are members of target-gun clubs have the right to choose what and how many competitions they enter, If super gets snotty explain that you often have friendly shoot with other members in the club, this type of bull ****e really boils my piss.

Ranger, this is just somebody getting the wrong end of the stick and not undersstanding the new legislation. I can see exactly where it came from and it's just a symptom of inadequate training.

Take your piss off the stove

ranger4

rrpc wrote: »

Ranger, this is just somebody getting the wrong end of the stick and not undersstanding the new legislation. I can see exactly where it came from and it's just a symptom of inadequate training.

Take your piss off the stove

Super is not just somebody missunderstanding new Legislation, He is the person who has the job of deciding who is intitled to recieve or be refused firearms licence, You make a very good point about shooters raising such issues and hopefully getting chance to point out such obvious mistakes to super before such practices are adopted by other supers.

rrpc

ranger4 wrote: »

Super is not just somebody missunderstanding new Legislation, He is the person who has the job of deciding who is intitled to recieve or be refused firearms licence, You make a very good point about shooters raising such issues and hopefully getting chance to point out such obvious mistakes to super before such practices are adopted by other supers.

Yes, it is absolutely vital that these issues are corrected befiore they get a grip. There's a learning curve for everyone and Supers are no exception. I agree that they should know better, but I understand why they don't. If you look at the questions asked by people here who you'd think would be better informed when you look at the volume of information posted, you can get some idea of how isolated information-wise individual Supers can be.

The guidelines are a bit of a problem here as well, because they are directed mainly at new applications and there's no real discussion or explanation of this current transition period within them.

So that's why Supers are asking for stuff that actually isn't required for a renewal and in fact isn't even required by law at this stage because so doing would make the law retroactive (which it's not of course).

We actually need to know why these misunderstandings are occurring because without that knowledge it's very difficult to educate. Telling people that they're wrong is no help, we need to tell thm why they are wrong and what the issue really is. If we don't, the same problems will continue to occur.

PJ Hunter

ranger4 wrote: »

Super is not just somebody missunderstanding new Legislation, He is the person who has the job of deciding who is intitled to recieve or be refused firearms licence, You make a very good point about shooters raising such issues and hopefully getting chance to point out such obvious mistakes to super before such practices are adopted by other supers.

before such practices are adopted by other supers

hear a super in one county wants to license only shotguns and .22's. many supers think they've got the green light for stopping "gun culture" emerging in ireland. a fo often will tell, never got training in the 3 year license, and know f.a about guns. surprised.

application cert is a 3 in one job thats confusing.

3.1 "record details of your existing firearm if you are merely renewing the certificate for it"

4.2 probably was meant for new applications only, and not whats licensed already.

Cass

bunny shooter wrote: »

...........Super is requesting "proof of competitions I have been in and level of same"

Seems plinking will not be tolerated even on an approved range :rolleyes:..........

So training to use the rifle (or plinking) in a safe and responsible manner is not good enough? Would he rather you buy a rifle and without zeroing or practising the safe use and handling of the firearm, enter competitions. You would get sent of the line for being dangerous.

Originally Posted by rrpc

Yes, it is absolutely vital that these issues are corrected befiore they get a grip.

+1. As with the case with this chap http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055677809 whose cousin was in a similar predictament. Through boards and the lads on it he got the help he needed and more importantly did not cave to pressure.

Originally Posted by PJ Hunter

4.2 probably was meant for new applications only, and not whats licensed already.......

I assume you already know its meant for all applicants. On the old PC20 there was no room for a "valid reason" for requiring the firearm. Your explanation does not have to be a novel. A simple sentence to explain will suffice. (You know what they say about assume, it makes an "ass" out of You then out of me":D)

Originally Posted by PJ Hunter

hear a super in one county wants to license only shotguns and .22's....

He can WANT all he likes. The law is on the firearm owners side. Once their application falls within the boundaries of the law a Super can dislike processing or licensing the firearms but the guidelines he uses are just that GUIDELINES. He should show a small bit of professionalism and put his personal feelings aside and process the applications.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

You know what to do bunny, you're a member of the NARGC at least, so you should be on to them to get it sorted tout de suite.

I do know exactly what to do Been here a few times already with him :rolleyes:

rrpc wrote: »

It's been accepted that existing holders need only state the fact that they've held a licence for over a year for proof of competence to be accepted..

I know but he won't listen to me but I know a man he will listen to

rrpc wrote: »

Your Super is totally in the wrong and has misunderstood the new laws. He's trying to retrospectively introduce stuff that's only been in force since the beginning of August..

Same as on 3 previous occasions which I 'won' for want of a better way of putting it :cool:

rrpc wrote: »

Don't even attempt to acquiesce to his ignorance, get it dealt with, if not for yourself at least for the sake of other guys in your district.

I was going to but as you say I should make a stand..........again.......and there are a few other lads in my district going to be in the same boat so hopefully they'll visit me in prison when himself has me done for bald tyresor some such :pac:

bunny shooter

E-mail gone to NARGC

Will keep ye updated

PJ Hunter

ezridax wrote: »

So training to use the rifle (or plinking) in a safe and responsible manner is not good enough? Would he rather you buy a rifle and without zeroing or practising the safe use and handling of the firearm, enter competitions. You would get sent of the line for being dangerous.



+1. As with the case with this chap http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055677809 whose cousin was in a similar predictament. Through boards and the lads on it he got the help he needed and more importantly did not cave to pressure.



I assume you already know its meant for all applicants. On the old PC20 there was no room for a "valid reason" for requiring the firearm. Your explanation does not have to be a novel. A simple sentence to explain will suffice. (You know what they say about assume, it makes an "ass" out of You then out of me":D)



He can WANT all he likes. The law is on the firearm owners side. Once their application falls within the boundaries of the law a Super can dislike processing or licensing the firearms but the guidelines he uses are just that GUIDELINES. He should show a small bit of professionalism and put his personal feelings aside and process the applications.

I assume you already know its meant for all applicants. On the old PC20 there was no room for a "valid reason" for requiring the firearm. Your explanation does not have to be a novel. A simple sentence to explain will suffice. (You know what they say about assume, it makes an "ass" out of You then out of me")

(M) i do.:D the old pc20..if you say so.

"please explain, on a seperate sheet, why this specific type of firearm is
required"

is this a bit of an "ass" question, if already the gun been renewed has a license. "assume nothing", some think:), can they be asked to change the gun every 3 years.:eek:

He should show a small bit of professionalism and put his personal feelings aside and process the applications.

=ezridax[/QUOTE]

he should but don't assume anything:)

meathstevie

Folks, I personally think everyone who encounters problems like Bunny is encountering should first of all try and sort it out face to face with the Super involved and if you feel that the legislation is still being applied incorrectly after that write a letter to :

- the local Super.
- their respective clubs and associations
- the DOJ
- the Garda ombudsman

If you feel that the new legislation is being applied incorrectly it is vital that everyone with an interest in these matters knows about it.

bunny shooter

My extensions expire on Oct 31. I don't really have time to go around the houses and we have had previous encounters where he was totally intransient and I have always had to revert to NARGC & FPU so saves my time and his by going the direct route

NARGC, namely Des, & FPU worked for me on two previous occasions

Grizzly 45

Is countryside Alliance [Ireland] a NGB able to deal with the FPU??

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Is countryside Alliance [Ireland] a NGB able to deal with the FPU??

Yes they are also on the FCP, so they are in a position to approach the FPU on your behalf.

Can I just say to people who want to go this route that they be particularly careful that they give all the information to their body of choice?

There's been a few occasions where there's been a little bit of 'holding back' for the want of a better phrase and people have been embarrassed by fuller revelations.

And yes, if you feel you can do better by approaching your Super on your own bat, by all means do so. On the other hand, the FPU need to know if stuff is going pear shaped in the system because it'll all come back on their desk in the end and at that stage it'll probably be completely FUBAR.

Sikamick

Another silly incident, Re one of our members who holds a non resident firearms licenses for two rifles which he uses to hunt/target shoot with here in Ireland.

A friend of his brought all his non resident paper work to the garda on his behalf, as the garda was going through the paper work he noticed that one rifle a .243 was for deer stalking and the other was a .22 for vermin shooting.

Can anybody guess what the next question the garda asked??????(Can he not use the .22 for deer stalking and then he would only need one license).

Sikamick

rowa

Sikamick wrote: »

Another silly incident, Re one of our members who holds a non resident firearms licenses for two rifles which he uses to hunt/target shoot with here in Ireland.

A friend of his brought all his non resident paper work to the garda on his behalf, as the garda was going through the paper work he noticed that one rifle a .243 was for deer stalking and the was a .22 for vermin shooting.

Can anybody guess what the next question the garda asked??????(Can he not use the .22 for deer stalking and then he would only need one license).

Sikamick

that just shows shocking ignorance of the firearms and wildlife laws sikamick, what i am hearing is gardai that don't like the new laws and want to bend them there way and ignore the law of the land , this does include telling barefaced lies .

bunny shooter

I'm hearing similar stories in my area.

It proves that there is a concerted effort to reduce the amount of licenced firearms by any means possible.

PJ Hunter

bunny shooter wrote: »

I'm hearing similar stories in my area.

It proves that there is a concerted effort to reduce the amount of licenced firearms by any means possible.

Minister Ahern concluded: "The vast majority of licensed firearms holders have nothing to fear from the bringing into force of these provisions of the Act. Instead, the Act provides for a modern, comprehensive licensing regime, while at the same time outlawing unacceptable practices."

bunny shooter

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Minister Ahern concluded: "The vast majority of licensed firearms holders have nothing to fear from the bringing into force of these provisions of the Act. Instead, the Act provides for a modern, comprehensive licensing regime, .............."

Time, and not in the distant future, will prove that that statement is a lie :mad:

As far as I can see a lot of "unacceptable practices" are being carried out by those tasked with ADMINISTERING the firearms Acts not by those who are served by it.

I am being pressurised to justify why I require the firearms that I have. The amazing thing is he was quite happy with the reasons I gave him a few short months ago for the same firearms

rowa

i believe that the firearms dealers are really feeling the pinch with all this and its not just the recession , some are taking far more guns in than they can sell and are turning into stores for unwanted guns ,
as for ahern telling lies , surely no one is in the least bit surprised by that fact given the party he is from and all the recent revelations ?

foxshooter243

rowa wrote: »

i believe that the firearms dealers are really feeling the pinch with all this and its not just the recession , some are taking far more guns in than they can sell and are turning into stores for unwanted guns ,
as for ahern telling lies , surely no one is in the least bit surprised by that fact given the party he is from and all the recent revelations ?

firearms sales up our way have stopped !!! the gundealers cant move a thing..

PJ Hunter

foxshooter243 wrote: »

firearms sales up our way have stopped !!! the gundealers cant move a thing..

Radically tightened licensing procedures for the renewal of currently licensed guns;

= d.ahern

if car drivers had to explain on a seperate sheet, why this type of car
is required, everytime the road tax needed renewing:eek: i doubt many
would want something different or take nothing.:o

Cass

foxshooter243 wrote: »

firearms sales up our way have stopped !!! the gundealers cant move a thing..

Same down my way. 2 dealers, one with €205,000 of "sold" stock the other with €65,000 that cannot be given to people until licences are issued. Has stopped taking orders and trade ins. Both have also refused to take anymore guns for storage. One lad said if he doesn't start shifting some guns soon he will be forced to make redundencies and if things still don't improve he is looking at a very bleak future possibly including closure.

rowa

ezridax wrote: »

Same down my way. 2 dealers, one with €205,000 of "sold" stock the other with €65,000 that cannot be given to people until licences are issued. Has stopped taking orders and trade ins. Both have also refused to take anymore guns for storage. One lad said if he doesn't start shifting some guns soon he will be forced to make redundencies and if things still don't improve he is looking at a very bleak future possibly including closure.

what happens to a gundealers stock when they close ? the gardai can't store firearms either , the phoenix park stores maybe ?, the only dealer i remember going out of business was cahill in naas .

Cass

I'd imagine some stock could be returned. Problem is dealers buy the firearms and acessories from the importers or direct from the manufacturers so they (importers/manufacturers) have their money and would be reluctant to refund any returns. The stock still remains the property of the dealer but with no shop to sell from or premises it would have to be stored, either the phoenix park or army barracks (Athlone). What happens after that is anyone's guess. Is it sold, continuously stored, returned, who knows.

Any deposits on dealer stock would need to be returned to the buyer so this would be the top of a slippery slope. Refunds, lack of sales, staff pay, utility bills and no income from sales would all lead to closures. Its a worst case scenario but for 6 weeks now most if not all dealers have seen little to no sales (full sales not just deposits) so they are, for want of a better word, stalled. If this licencing impass is not broken shortly and dealers allowed to resume selling it could lead to smaller shops closing. Lets face it, a dealer could have €10,000,000 worth of stock with deposits on the stock but its not a sale and not money in the till.