Super 6 middleweight tournament

nacho libre

BDF wrote: »

I know Dirrell is a very good fighter but he is the most inexperienced fighter in the tournament by some way. As for not fighting like an amateur, Mayweather does it, Khan does it, why not Dirrell? Froch was thoroughly outboxed and outfought. This was an absolute robbery, it wasn't even close.

very good point. Mayweather is lauded by some for fighting this way.

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

Dirrell was fighting on the backfoot but still outboxed Froch by landing the more accurate shots throughout the fight. He finished strongly too. He clearly won the fight. His negative mentality no way excuses this dreadful decision.
Also Froch could easily have been thrown out for his continual fouling. if there is no bias involved in the assessment of this fight then his persistent rabbit punching should be acknowledged. He was constantly warned about it yet no point deduction. whereas as Dirrell deduction seem to come out without prior warnings

While I agree Froch could have been deducted a point or two for misdemeanors(mainly rabbit punching), the point deduction certainly did not come without warning. The referee warned Dirrell about 7 times beforehand for holding. This was done quickly after breaking the fighters, and I'll admit he didn't stop the action to warn Dirrell, but he did indeed warn him many times.

The rabbit punching on Froch's part was not intentional and was generally happening while Dirrell was slipping punches. That doesn't excuse it of course it's still illegal, but sometimes Dirrell weaved his head below the waistline of Froch leaving no available target.


I really hope Dirrell doesn't take the attitude from this fight that he was robbed, even though pretty much everyone has scored him the winner.
He showed amazing potential in there tonight to be a great fighter and when I say great I don't mean it in the overused way it often is, I mean he could stand out as one of the best fighters of this generation. But it seems like he doesn't want to. If he hadn't of been so negative he'd have won the fight, and that's pretty much fact.

I don't know if he's fighting Abraham in Germany or America, but if he fights like he did tonight in Germany he'd lose aswell.

Kessler will likely stop Froch(their fights in Copenhagen anyway), but it wouldn't matter if that fight was held in Carl Froch's house. Kessler would take the initiative and make sure the judges know who's winning the fight.


To summarise, Froch probably should of lost a point, Dirrell should of been disqualified, the judges should of all scored for Dirrell, and Andre Dirrell has a great career ahead of him if he cops the **** on.

kevinhug

Was impressed with Dirrell, very fast. Definately has the beating of Froch, but just didn't win the rounds by enough for me. Froch doesn't seem to have a plan B just seems to rely on the KO and if that doesn't work for him he just keeps trying it. couldn't cope with Dirrells speed, but done a good job roughing him up and pissing him off. i would of gave it to Froch, but just. Can't see him beating Kess on next fight.

Did anyone catch what Bunce said about the Dunne fight? my connection cut. sorry for going off topic

dlofnep

Dirrell took it IMO. Robbed.

Vintagekits

dlofnep wrote: »

Dirrell took it IMO. Robbed.

bad decision - yes in my opinion it was - but a lot of those rounds were close so no robbery.

Johner

Vintagekits wrote: »

1. 10-9 Froch - decent flurry with 30 seconds to go was the only action
2. 20-18 - Froch - nothing in it again but Froch with the effect pressure and ring generalship - nothing in it really
3. 29-28 Dirrells round, quality counter work
4. 38-38 - more of the same from Dirrell - still to quick
5. 48-47 - Dirrell, Dirrell frustrating Froch and nicking the rounds.
6. 57-57 - Froch, Froch needs to cut the ring off. Dirrell still frustrating Froch but not doing much
7. 67-66 - Dirrell, little in it.
8. 77-75 - Dirrell, speed speed speed. The left hook wasnt enough to win the round
9. 86-85 - Froch round. Finally Froch makes the pressure pay. Dirrell doing little
10. 95-95 - Level round because of the point deduction - scrappy fight!
11. 105-104 to Dirrell.- Dirrell Round. Dirrell starting to catch Froch. Both appear weak in the Super 6.
12. 115-113 to Dirrell.- Dirrell Round. Sharper, faster, more intelligent!

Good assesment.

I no Dirrell has to come and take the title of Froch and it was a close fight but still Dirrell won fair and square imo.

dlofnep

Vintagekits wrote: »

bad decision - yes in my opinion it was - but a lot of those rounds were close so no robbery.

It was a robbery IMO. Firstly, the point deduction wasn't fair. Froch did his fair share of dirty shots on the break, and hit to the back of the head a few times - not to mention threw Dirrell onto the mat. The ref should have deducted them both a point or none at all.

Dirrell landed the better shots, and landed more often. His defense was very good and Froch had a hard time even landing at all.

Froch might have bullied Dirrell in the clinch, but he did not win that fight at all. I've watched it twice now, and Dirrell wins it cleanly.

jayroyal

Well main thing is dirrell is over now will never will in germany fighting like that, he's the new b hop. I'm guessing he can't sell tickets in america, they'd hate him Hence why he's fighting in europe.
I like frochs attitude and engine toughness, he is a one tick pony in a way but much better to watch. He's up against it agaist it with kessler who i think is a shoe in.
Poor taylor is so shot its not right cause he has class just all in his head now.
King arthur will find it tough against dirrell but his guard so high dirrell will find it hard to get enough points the way he fights. Well i can't wait till he fights both kessler and froch .

Vintagekits

jayroyal wrote: »

Well main thing is dirrell is over now will never will in germany fighting like that, he's the new b hop. I'm guessing he can't sell tickets in america, they'd hate him Hence why he's fighting in europe.
I like frochs attitude and engine toughness, he is a one tick pony in a way but much better to watch. He's up against it agaist it with kessler who i think is a shoe in.
Poor taylor is so shot its not right cause he has class just all in his head now.
King arthur will find it tough against dirrell but his guard so high dirrell will find it hard to get enough points the way he fights. Well i can't wait till he fights both kessler and froch .

I fear that Dirrell v Abraham could be one of the worst fights ever!

nacho libre

Big Ears wrote: »

While I agree Froch could have been deducted a point or two for misdemeanors(mainly rabbit punching), the point deduction certainly did not come without warning. The referee warned Dirrell about 7 times beforehand for holding. This was done quickly after breaking the fighters, and I'll admit he didn't stop the action to warn Dirrell, but he did indeed warn him many times.

The rabbit punching on Froch's part was not intentional and was generally happening while Dirrell was slipping punches. That doesn't excuse it of course it's still illegal, but sometimes Dirrell weaved his head below the waistline of Froch leaving no available target.
.

well, i agree with most of your post, but i think Froch's rabbit punching was intentional by virture of the fact he did it so frequently. Also, he hit late sometimes in frustration and for that bodyslam he was very lucky he didn't get a point deducted for that too. Dirrell did hold on and spoil sometimes but it's what any fighter will do to disrupt his opponents rhythm. Hopkins is notorious for doing this yet he very rarely gets a point deducted for it.


You're right in saying Dirrell is a fantastic prospect. He seemed fairly calm and level headed in the interview after the fight so i don't think he'll get dispirited by an event that Dick Turpin would have been proud of:P

Dirrell demonstrated perfectly the art of hitting and not being hit for the bulk of the fight. Okay to many Froch is clumsy and one-dimensional but i think Dirrell has the footwork, balance and handspeed to trouble better fighters than Froch. If he actually had heavy hands he'd be my favourite to win the tournament. I guess he'd also have the confidence to take more chances.


As it stands, Kessler is still my pick to win it but Abraham will be his toughest fight in this tournament. Ward could be a good outside bet.

alanceltic

Im enjoying this series and its great for boxing...feck the belts and give the fans the fights they want, it pushes all of the politics to one side for a change.

As for the Dirrell-Froch fight, there was too many close rounds for it to be called a home town decision. My gut feeling was that Dirrell won the fight by a close margin but I feel that if you score the fight round by round Froch gets a lot of the close rounds by virtue of the fact that he was more aggressive. Froch is one dirty son of a bit_ch, i lost count of the number of times he connected with the elbow and I dont care what anyone else says but he was following through with the intention of connecting. Froch is very one dimensional and didnt have any answers for Dirrell, I was impressed with how Dirrell grew into the fight as I taught the opposite would happen and have hugh respect for him. Im really looking forward to Abraham - Froch as it has the makings for a real tear up.

I wouldnt lose too much sleep over the Froch decision but he can count himself lucky coz he boxed terribly and got out of jail, if Dirrell was a little more positive in the first 6 rounds it would have been so different.

Mossy Monk

Fights are being shown for free on Sky channel 480 right now for anyone interested. Will be shown again tomorrow at the same time.

efb

was just going to saw that came across it.

joepenguin

nacho libre wrote: »

Also, he hit late sometimes in frustration and for that bodyslam he was very lucky he didn't get a point deducted for that too. Dirrell did hold on and spoil sometimes but it's what any fighter will do to disrupt his opponents rhythm.



Dirrell demonstrated perfectly the art of hitting and not being hit for the bulk of the fight.

As it stands, Kessler is still my pick to win it but Abraham will be his toughest fight in this tournament. Ward could be a good outside bet.

I think Froch hit late due to the way Dirrel was fighting, turing his head etc. To me it was his way of saying to the ref... what am i supposed to do?
As for the bodyslam that was i reaction to the way dirrel threw himself into it and he did come up with the head a few times as do all boxers. I think that was his own fault... did u see the time he went in for a clinch or something and took a knee on his own.

To me he was fighting like an amature with all the little tricks etc. but over 12 rounds that gets found out and the point deduction was fair enough given the accumulation of incidents.

I much prefer Dirrels style though, I love watching the point scoring and evasive footwork. He made Froch look lost at times and desperate. I hope he does well in his career after this as that fight was so close it could have been a win either way or a draw.

Id go for Kessler to best Froch and win the tourn. Something tells me we could see an upset in the final rounds.

MCMT

alanceltic wrote: »

As for the Dirrell-Froch fight, there was too many close rounds for it to be called a home town decision. My gut feeling was that Dirrell won the fight by a close margin but I feel that if you score the fight round by round Froch gets a lot of the close rounds by virtue of the fact that he was more aggressive.

I wouldnt lose too much sleep over the Froch decision but he can count himself lucky coz he boxed terribly and got out of jail, if Dirrell was a little more positive in the first 6 rounds it would have been so different.

Can this fight really be termed a home town decision, even if you dismiss it as such? A lot of people are throwing that phrase around, but I don't get it: the ref was Panamanian; the three judges were of Mexico, Belgium and Italy.

The fight was fought in England and English refing/judging has the distinction of being biased to the point of absurdity (most recently, Fury-McDermott springs to mind); but in this case, how can it be considered a home town decision if none of the officials were British?

I personally saw Dirrell winning. He landed the cleaner shots and countered Froch's style very, very well - even if he did clinch overmuch and overplayed his nihilistic side.

Still, I've heard from those in attendance on the night that Froch really did appear to nip it. And even from my pro-Dirrell perspective, I didn't think it ludicrous that Froch was given the decision. He fought a tricky opponent and never looked to have lost his game. Plus he sucessfully illustrated the negative dimensions of Dirrell's fight (I said I thought Froch and his corner were extremely adept at reading a bout as it unfolded and this is just another [not so satisfying] example of that).

Still: (and I'm not criticising alanceltic's post) it has bugged me to see so many fans/commentators (esp. American) talk about this as a home town decision. It's probably one of the few cases in English boxing where it actually wasn't.

Re Froch - I think Kessler will be more his sort of oppenent and we'll see a much better fight. That said, currently I see Kessler grinding him into the ground and making bread of his bones.

Re Dirrell - he's all the makings of a winner, even though I generally abhor that style. I reckon after this tournament he'll begin to dominate the US division. He seems smart and has plenty of room for growth.

Re Abe-Taylor - my god, I was rooting for Taylor that whole fight. He's not my favorite but I really wanted him to prove himself and shut the mouths of the lazy hacks. I think this is what made it such an exciting match for me. I've heard others complain about it, but I was on the edge of my seat the whole way true. And that knock out: a guilty orgasm: beautiful. Suddenly Abe and his right hand really are the contenders I never thought they would be. Hurrah!

nacho libre

MCMT wrote: »

Can this fight really be termed a home town decision, even if you dismiss it as such? A lot of people are throwing that phrase around, but I don't get it: the ref was Panamanian; the three judges were of Mexico, Belgium and Italy.

The fight was fought in England and English refing/judging has the distinction of being biased to the point of absurdity (most recently, Fury-McDermott springs to mind); but in this case, how can it be considered a home town decision if none of the officials were British?

!

i think what they mean is that the judges, irrespective of their nationality, will always tend to favour the fighter defending his belt on home turf, in front of a partisan crowd, if it's anyway close from their perspective.
Regardless of Dirrell tactics, if this fight had taken place in a neutral venue i very much doubt that Froch would have gotten the decision

nacho libre

joepenguin wrote: »

I think Froch hit late due to the way Dirrel was fighting, turing his head etc. To me it was his way of saying to the ref... what am i supposed to do?
As for the bodyslam that was i reaction to the way dirrel threw himself into it and he did come up with the head a few times as do all boxers. I think that was his own fault... did u see the time he went in for a clinch or something and took a knee on his own.

To me he was fighting like an amature with all the little tricks etc. but over 12 rounds that gets found out and the point deduction was fair enough given the accumulation of incidents

Regardless of Dirrell's tactics i say Froch's inability to tag Dirrell with regularity was largely his own fault due to his limitations as a boxer, so it doesn't excuse him persistently hitting the back of Dirrell's head and throwing Dirrell to the ground.
I had to laugh at Froch's post fight comments complaining about how Dirrell wouldn't fight as Froch wanted him to. I'm sure plenty of Mayweather's opponents have the same complaint. I don't like how Mayweather fights but i doubt he's going to change his style for anyone!

MCMT

nacho libre wrote: »

i think what they mean is that the judges, irrespective of their nationality, will always tend to favour the fighter defending his belt on home turf, in front of a partisan crowd, if it's anyway close from their perspective.
Regardless of Dirrell tactics, if this fight had taken place in a neutral venue i very much doubt that Froch would have gotten the decision

Yeah, I can see that. The idea that you have to fight like a champion to beat a champion is entirely prevalent.

Still, it seems by most accounts that there's a discrepancy between those who were present in Nottingham and those wathcing it on TV. Whether or not the latter is slanted, we can't know.

clubwelly

For anyone that didn't see it they're showing the Froch fight on itv on sat at 11:15.
Does anyone think Taylor will fight on in the tournament? Read on net that they're thinking of replacing him with Allen Greene. Don't shoot me down now but I wouldn't mind seeing Edison Miranda in it. I know he lost to both Pavlik n Abraham but he's got the power to deliver a ko

Big Ears

I think Taylor will fight on in the tournament(unless he retires), it's his easiest chance towards big paydays and a potential chance to redeem himself.

Allan Green would be the most likely replacement if Taylor pulls out, he's also promoted by Lou Dibella so it wouldn't be hard to draft him in.

Miranda is unlikely to even be considered because of his previous losses to Abraham(twice) and Andre Ward.

alanceltic

MCMT wrote: »

Can this fight really be termed a home town decision,

Still: (and I'm not criticising alanceltic's post) it has bugged me to see so many fans/commentators (esp. American) talk about this as a home town decision. It's probably one of the few cases in English boxing where it actually wasn't.

I actually agree with most of what you said but I didnt call it a home town decision!!!!! I said there were a lot of close rounds and had no problem with the fight going to Froch BUT i do think that he was lucky to a degree coz the decision could easily have gone against him

nacho libre

MCMT wrote: »

Yeah, I can see that. The idea that you have to fight like a champion to beat a champion is entirely prevalent.

Still, it seems by most accounts that there's a discrepancy between those who were present in Nottingham and those wathcing it on TV. Whether or not the latter is slanted, we can't know.

well, i think it's quite reasonable to conclude that judges may in fact be swayed by a vocal partisan crowd.
If i was watching that fight in Nottingham and was rooting for Froch beforehand i'd probably believe he had won too. However, i think it's fair to say the majority of objective observers feel Froch was fortunate to get the decision even if some of them believe some rounds were close

megadodge

Firstly let me say that I had €100 at 4.1/1 on Dirrell to win on points, so when the decision was announced I was disappointed (esp when I could have laid him off at the end but didn't) and yes, I do think Dirrell nicked it.

However, on reflection, I don't regard it as a bad decision, as there were numerous rounds (esp. early on) where there was very little landed by either boxer and and awful lot of negativity by Dirrell, which would easily make a judge go for Froch by default. I certainly think if Dirrell boxed earlier on the way he did in the last few rounds, there would have been no argument, but he didn't!!

I don't think Dirrell boxes like Mayweather at all. Dirrell was flat out running at stages there, which I've never seen Floyd do. Floyd can stay in the pocket and block, parry and counter whereas anytime Dirrell got close he hung on for dear life. Obviously then I totally agree with the point deduction.

From browsing various forums, it's clear there are a lot of people out there (Americans included) who believe that Froch won. It's very easy to be swayed by the commentary and often it's interesting to rewatch a fight with the sound off.

I think from a betting perspective, betting on Froch to lose on points is serious value.