How will history record the Lisbon Referendum?

MrMatisse

Will it be seen as the most important step to a federal europe or something else?

Scofflaw

Leading questions much? Something else.

amused,
Scofflaw

meditraitor

It will be no more than a footnote, Ireland voting yes will not even register in 10 years. The big changes are yet to happen.

seamus

History will record Lisbon as a lot of fuss and FUD over something mostly inconsequential.

MrMatisse

Different opinions in different parts of boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696632

Run_to_da_hills

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Will it be seen as the most important step to a federal europe or something else?

History will only be repeating itself.

(I cannot show images as it could lead to banning.) :eek:

Rb

Well, if the EU continues to expand then there will be more reform treaties as the Union will have to change to accomodate the new members. So, like the other things the nay-sayers have kicked up a fuss over for nothing, it will fade into history and will only ever be referenced by political historians mapping the structural changes in the union.

A lot bigger things, such as the Euro, have happened and a lot bigger things will happen. We may as well embrace it and remain at the heart of it, as far as I'm concerned.

MrMatisse

Rb wrote: »

Well, if the EU continues to expand then there will be more reform treaties as the Union will have to change to accomodate the new members. So, like the other things the nay-sayers have kicked up a fuss over for nothing, it will fade into history and will only ever be referenced by political historians mapping the structural changes in the union.

A lot bigger things, such as the Euro, have happened and a lot bigger things will happen. We may as well embrace it and remain at the heart of it, as far as I'm concerned.

At the heart of Europe.

Not geographically or politically.

Politcal gombeenism. We have no influence over the eu now at all really.

A Primal Nut

The same as the Nice Treaty - completely forgotten about. Along with all the rediculous claims about how it would end Irish neutrality, etc.

Scofflaw

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Different opinions in different parts of boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696632

Yup - over in Conspiracy Theories they think it's a conspiracy - although, admittedly, that thread has nothing to do with this topic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

MrMatisse

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The same as the Nice Treaty - completely forgotten about. Along with all the rediculous claims about how it would end Irish neutrality, etc.

Yep.

The american planes landing in shannon already do that.

Rb

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

PopeBuckfastXVI

The Referendum will be noted for it's campaigns of ignorance and irrelevance.

I actually think it could prove historically to be the last time there is this much campaigning allowed by law, well maybe hope.

It can't be allowed to continue:
Vote 'Yes' for this thing you want.
Vote 'No' for this thing you don't want.

When neither of those things are directly related to the treaty.

Run_to_da_hills

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

Gobsh*ites in the eyes of the minority of Europe's 500 million that didn't even want to have the treaty in the first place. :rolleyes:

Davidius

Realistically, it'll be barely mentioned at all and most people will forget about it. It's a very over-hyped treaty.

MrMatisse

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

Along with the British and the Czechs and whoever else that was never even asked.

MrMatisse

Scofflaw wrote: »

Leading questions much? Something else.

amused,
Scofflaw

Not that the yes side have not done this over the last few weeks.

meditraitor

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Along with the British and the Czechs and whoever else that was never even asked.

The mechanisms of Government in those countries dont require the population to vote. They have government to decide such matters and these government were elected by the people to do such things .....

So in effect the people who were ELECTED to decide matters like this are making the decision. Like it or not this is how they do it and have done it for a generation! It is a democratic process.....

MrMatisse

meditraitor wrote: »

The mechanisms of Government in those countries dont require the population to vote. They have government to decide such matters and these government were elected by the people to do such things .....

So in effect the people who were ELECTED to decide matters like this are making the decision. Like it or not this is how they do it and have done it for a generation! It is a democratic process.....

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts.

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

RandomName2

How will history see the Lisbon Ref?

The people of Europe probably didn't like it but didn't do very much about it.

The Irish made a sort of awkward jab at vetoing it - but their confidence relied entirely on their disposable income and they were easily corralled by their political parties.

Of the three steps towards European federalisation Maastricht was the first, Constitution/Lisbon was the second and X was the third.

Europe returned to an early nineteenth century interpretation of governance.

However, the attempts to create European harmonization - the concept of a universal nationhood of Europe - failed to take hold. By the mid 21st century nationalist bodies started to emerge spontaneously (in a similar fashion to 1848). Unfortunately the capacity for pressure groups to reform the 'EU' was essentially negligible (and besides which apathy at the existing system damaged any grassroot enthusiasm to reform the suprastructure). nations start seceding from the union in isolationist moves. If the EU is militaristic enough it might invade these provinces (Warsaw Pact style) or will otherwise gradually collapse.

Hopefully this prediction wont come true.

But I immediately predict 56% yes on friday.

meditraitor

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts..

They are intitled to do this because in a free democratic country every decision can be challenged. The lisbon treaty will not change this

Really-Stressed wrote: »

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

You cant please all the people all the time, trying to get a balance between what is best for the majority and not marginalising a minority is not so easy.

And on that point I have not seen a single post from the NO side that explains to me how Europe/EU membership has made things worse for the countries involved.
I have only seen a lot of nonsense about what Europe might do, the basis for these fantasies has been slapped down time and again on this forum not through scaremongering but good honest debate based on facts.

If you have no basis for your fears but ignorance it is only your own fault if you get slapped down time and again.

cornbb

If it gets passed, it will be quickly forgotten in the public consciousness and will become a footnote in the timeline in the history of the EU. People don't notice when things don't break.

If it does not pass, it will be remembered as a stumbling-block in the progress of the EU, and a failure of democracy. The EU will question whether Ireland will ever allow a treaty to be ratified again and Ireland will need to re-evaluate how EU treaties are dealt with. It will mark a turning point for Ireland's image in the rest of the world from a pro-EU country to a Euroskeptic country.

marco_polo

As per usual, Chicken Little will once again be both bemused and disappointed when the sky does not in fact fall in.

turgon

I will remember the Lisbon Treaty Referendum Campaign in a poor light.

I will remember flying into Cork Airport in early September after a month away and seeing the posters that would define the tactics of the No campaign:

"€1.84 Minimum Wage after Lisbon?"
"95% Of Europeans Would Vote No"
"Milked Dry! €200 Billion lost in fisheries"
"New Voting Rights - Germany 17%, Ireland 0.8%"

I will remember the blatant ignorance that the No side portrayed and played on. I will remember how Coir, Sinn Fein, Libertas, Socialist Party, Eirigi and others used every sheet of paper and radio second at their grasp to spread lies, out of context quotes and misinformation to further their respective hidden agendas.

I will remember the Lisbon Campaign as the time I personally lost all hope in direct democracy. The campaign was a sham with the last thing being discussed was the thing we were voting on - The Treaty of Lisbon.

I will personally remember the fight put up by Generation Yes on their Facebook page that was based solely on correctly quoting the Treaty and the Law. And I will never forget how the No side, confronted with such a truthful organization, could not fight what they were saying, but could only accuse them of being a FF and Green front. I will never forget this.

And finally, I will never forget that to ever support Sinn Fein, Libertas or Coir - these ironic defenders of "freedom" - would only to be supporting ignorance, lies and deceit. I will never - never - look upon any of these three organizations in a neutral or positive light ever again. They had the opportune chance to lose my respect and they took it wholeheartedly.

RandomName2

marco_polo wrote: »

As per usual, Chicken Little will once again be both bemused and disappointed when the sky does not in fact fall in.

You mean like after the first no vote?

Furious-Dave

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts.

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

Children don't always want to eat their vegetables now do they? Though the parents know that the veg is good for them and make them eat it.
Is it worth risking the future of our country just so that the principles of democracy are upheld?

RandomName2

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Children don't always want to eat their vegetables now do they? Though the parents know that the veg is good for them and make them eat it.

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

Colpriz

How will history record the Lisbon Referendum?

Maybe as an increase in sales of Norwegian-english dictionaries in Ireland, as the Irish decide there is no point in living in a country that a government elected to represent them deny their vote (lisbon 1) and opt for being out of it all just like the Norwegians...

P. Breathnach

One thing to which we can look forward with glee:
- in a few years' time we may have another referendum on a further set of revisions to the EU treaties;
- Sinn Féin will oppose it, while representing themselves as pro-EU, just that this new treaty is in some way a step too far;
- they will say that the EU undir the Lisbon Treaty is perfectly satisfactory, and we should keep that model.

Furious-Dave

RandomName2 wrote: »

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

I don't recall ever implying that I think the electorate are stupid. The analogy of children eating vegetables fits fine IMO. Children don't know why the vegetables are good for them and may not like the taste, but it's got nothing to do with being stupid. And from what I've seen a lot of people still don't know what the treaty is really about and how it will benefit them. Are we being told that if we don't ratify Lisbon we will be permanently impoverished?
Edited: My dad was at a conference recently at the Institute of International and European Affairs, and in a speech Brendan Halligan said that if the negative consequences of rejecting the Lisbon Treaty do occur, it could be 20 years before Ireland recovers. But hey, at least we upheld the principles of democracy, and that's all that matters right?

Brian Cowen doesn't have to read treaties, though he probably should. He has advisers to do that and summarize it for him.

humanji

RandomName2 wrote: »

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

Are the parents and the shopkeeper out to get the children? Or is that just the overactive imaginations of some of the children?

I can't imagine the outcome of the referendom being anything other than a footnote to an article about Europe in Pepsi-Wiki (Wikipedia will be bought out in the future).