Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

jimmmy

The statistic of average public service pay - across the spectrum of over 300,000 public servants in Ireland - is available from the Irish Central Statistics office ( CSO ) and is 966 euro per week. I have been unable to find a single government public service anywhere in the world with an average p.s. pay which exceeds this. Can anyone help ? If so, links please.

Also any countries which pay more that the public service pension here ( one and a half years finishing salary lump-sum cheque tax free + then 50% of finishing salary as guaranteed pension )? Do police in other countries , for example, have to work a full 30 years before they are entitled to this amount, like the Gardai are here ? Judges here get full pension after 15 years...any countries where that is shorter ? And any countries with better perks than some p.s. people are entitled to here e.g. paid "career breaks"....where you get paid up to 36,000 euro to take up to 3 years off work, to raise your kids, or to go on a round the world holiday or whatever you're having yourself?

Get googling lads + lassies....maybe if government cheques bounce here in the future it will be nice to know of a public service elsewhere in the world where perhaps some people could move to, if they wish to move to a similar work environment ?;)

djpbarry

For the love of <insert preferred deity here>, change the record man.

helimachoptor

jimmmy wrote: »

The statistic of average public service pay - across the spectrum of over 300,000 public servants in Ireland - is available from the Irish Central Statistics office ( CSO ) and is 966 euro per week. I have been unable to find a single government public service anywhere in the world with an average p.s. pay which exceeds this. Can anyone help ? If so, links please.

Also any countries which pay more that the public service pension here ( one and a half years finishing salary lump-sum cheque tax free + then 50% of finishing salary as guaranteed pension )? Do police in other countries , for example, have to work a full 30 years before they are entitled to this amount, like the Gardai are here ? Judges here get full pension after 15 years...any countries where that is shorter ? And any countries with better perks than some p.s. people are entitled to here e.g. paid "career breaks"....where you get paid up to 36,000 euro to take up to 3 years off work, to raise your kids, or to go on a round the world holiday or whatever you're having yourself?

Get googling lads + lassies....maybe if government cheques bounce here in the future it will be nice to know of a public service elsewhere in the world where perhaps some people could move to, if they wish to move to a similar work environment ?;)

I stand to be corrected on this but Judges get their pensions after only 15 years because you only get selected for the bench after years as a barrister so you may not get to the bench til 40+.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

For the love of <insert preferred deity here>, change the record man.

HE has a point. We need to know this as its been debated about alot and facts and figures would help keep us knowledgeable on the situation.

Here's a start. The UK talks about median which is fairer. (Apr '08) http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

The percentage difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£523 per week in April 2008) and the private sector (£460 per week) narrowed over the year to April 2008, following annual increases of 4.3 per cent and 4.6 per cent respectively.

To me, the PS median rate is about €40k per yr at an old stg rate of 67p. €33k at a rate of 82p and etc to adjust the exchange rate.

Long Onion

The public service that deals with Jimmmy are indeed the highest paid in the world, from the clerks that look after his paperwork to the judges that find in favour of of him.

The public service that the public servants work in in is the worst paid in the world with the longest hours, worst duties and higest levies.

The public service that the rest of the country deals with is somewhere in between, some low paid workers, some highly paide workers, some areas effective, some not. In need of reform - probably, at any cost? - probably not.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

HE has a point.

His point is, once again, that the public service in this country is grossly overpaid. We get it. It's common knowledge. Too much public money is going into funding our bloated public service. Repeatedly stating this fact over and over in thread after thread is not exactly constructive.

The question is, what do we do about it? How do we go about streamlining our public service in a structured manner? How do we get the unions onside in order to achieve this?

gurramok

Long Onion wrote: »

The public service that the rest of the country deals with is somewhere in between, some low paid workers, some highly paide workers, some areas effective, some not. In need of reform - probably, at any cost? - probably not.

Hence, we need to know how the stats weigh up against other countries. I'd be highly surprised if primary school teachers were earning an average of €60k(Dept Education source) in other EU countries for example.

Here's the French.(before reductions of course)

http://insee.fr/en/themes/document.asp?ref_id=IP1211

From this it appears that the average French public sector employee earns €31k('06) while their Irish colleagues from memory earn €49k on average.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

His point is, once again, that the public service in this country is grossly overpaid. We get it. It's common knowledge. Too much public money is going into funding our bloated public service. Repeatedly stating this fact over and over in thread after thread is not exactly constructive.

But you see djpbarry, nearly every post by a PS worker disagrees with your assertion that they are the highest paid in the EU/world or even overpaid so lets drag out the stats to shut them up!

gurramok

Australia (Nov '07)

http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,22763090-462,00.html

$62k AUS average a yr for a public sector worker. That works out at about €37k using www.xe.com

USA - New York State
http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090921/VIEWPOINTS02/909210311/1112

$47k average a year, thats €32k.

Liam Byrne

In the interests of a fair discussion, though, the pay that everyone (private and public) gets should be considered in terms of the cost of living in this country.

e.g. Dell moves to Poland because they can pay less; why ? Because most stuff there is cheaper and people don't have to fork out €1,000 a month to pay for a basic place to live, so they can work for less.

Even look at the threads and UK ads about subscriptions to Sky, mobile phones, broadband, electricity, petrol, and you'll see an indication of the premium that we pay to live in this country.

A more tangible example : is a taxi driver in the U.S. paid as much as here ? Probably not, because he gets his petrol for US$2.554 a GALLON [ Source: http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/gasoline/index.cfm ], which is US$0.56 cent a litre, which equates to €0.385 per litre!!!

So the cost of petrol in Ireland is 300% of the U.S.!!!!

Apply that across the board to basic goods and services everyone in Ireland would need to be paid 3 times what people are paid elsewhere in order to have the same standard of living!

It's a catch 22, obviously, because that then makes everything else more expensive; but of course, that's where FF got it all wrong.

So, before checking anyone in Ireland is "paid more" than elsewhere, check what the average cost of living in Ireland is too, and factor that in.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

But you see djpbarry, nearly every post by a PS worker disagrees with your assertion that they are the highest paid in the EU/world or even overpaid…

Possibly because not every PS worker is? What matters fundamentally is, are we getting value for money from each individual. If not, then that needs to be addressed and we need the unions to cop the **** on and realise that there are people in the public sector who are not deserving of either their current rate of pay, or even deserving of a job at all. However, there are also those who more than deserve what they earn and even some who are underpaid and put up with a tremendous amount of crap on a daily basis.

For example, while not a public servant myself, I currently work in a public building and, if I’m being perfectly honest, about 30% of the admin staff in this place could be relieved of their duties tomorrow and nobody would know the difference. Having said that, there are also administrators who are extremely good at what they do and many of them end up picking up the slack for their less-than-diligent colleagues. There have also been a very wide-ranging series of cut-backs implemented in here in recent months, so people are expected to perform their duties to the same standard as last year, but with (in some cases) significantly diminished resources.

I know this is stating the obvious, but it’s still worth stating. Comparing the average rate of pay of primary teachers (for example) in this country with those in the UK, for example, and finding that Irish teachers are paid say, 10% more than their British counterparts doesn’t really mean all that much in isolation. What matters is what we’re getting for that extra 10%. Could we, for example, replace Irish primary teachers with their British counterparts, save that 10% on public sector salaries and maintain a similar standard of primary teaching? I doubt it.

ardmacha

When are collecting the Stats lads, be sure to mention that secondary teachers in Ireland get 1.19 times GDP, when the OECD average is 1.34 times GDP and that teachers in Japan, Korea, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands etc are better paid, as well as having better working conditions. Don't always be using France.

Euro_Kraut

We probably have one of the highest paid private sectors in the world too. I would imagine pay in both sectors will be reduced soon.

murphaph

The private sector is already in freefall.

gurramok

Finland (similar size country)

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6530141/Public-Sector-Pay-in-Finland

Private sector earns a little bit more here than the public sector!

Average public sector pay in Finland is €29.5k.

ardmacha wrote:

When are collecting the Stats lads, be sure to mention that secondary teachers in Ireland get 1.19 times GDP, when the OECD average is 1.34 times GDP and that teachers in Japan, Korea, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands etc are better paid, as well as having better working conditions. Don't always be using France.

Irish GDP is alot higher than Irish GNP(unlike other OECD countries) because of huge MNC presence here so not valid comparison.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

Can anyone help ? If so, links please.

Interesing trick jimmmy. You don't have any evidence to support your anti-public-sector-worker jihad, so you're asking other posters to find some for you.

irish_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

His point is, once again, that the public service in this country is grossly overpaid. We get it. It's common knowledge. Too much public money is going into funding our bloated public service. Repeatedly stating this fact over and over in thread after thread is not exactly constructive.

The question is, what do we do about it? How do we go about streamlining our public service in a structured manner? How do we get the unions onside in order to achieve this?

the unions cannot be got onside just as the taliban cannot be got on side in afghanistan , both must be crushed

irish_bob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In the interests of a fair discussion, though, the pay that everyone (private and public) gets should be considered in terms of the cost of living in this country.

e.g. Dell moves to Poland because they can pay less; why ? Because most stuff there is cheaper and people don't have to fork out €1,000 a month to pay for a basic place to live, so they can work for less.

Even look at the threads and UK ads about subscriptions to Sky, mobile phones, broadband, electricity, petrol, and you'll see an indication of the premium that we pay to live in this country.

A more tangible example : is a taxi driver in the U.S. paid as much as here ? Probably not, because he gets his petrol for US$2.554 a GALLON [ Source: http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/gasoline/index.cfm ], which is US$0.56 cent a litre, which equates to €0.385 per litre!!!

So the cost of petrol in Ireland is 300% of the U.S.!!!!

Apply that across the board to basic goods and services everyone in Ireland would need to be paid 3 times what people are paid elsewhere in order to have the same standard of living!

It's a catch 22, obviously, because that then makes everything else more expensive; but of course, that's where FF got it all wrong.

So, before checking anyone in Ireland is "paid more" than elsewhere, check what the average cost of living in Ireland is too, and factor that in.

ah the old cost of living argument , did you know that at the begining of the 20th century , argentina was the 8th richest country in the world , its more like 88th today , just because the cost of living in 2007 was higher in ireland than in the uk doesnt mean the cost of living will be higher here in years to come , circumstances change , the cost of living will be down in a week if wages and wellfare fall

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

Finland (similar size country)

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/6530141/Public-Sector-Pay-in-Finland

Private sector earns a little bit more here than the public sector!

Average public sector pay in Finland is €29.5k.

.

Thank you. It is interesting ,considering
(A) the cost of living is not very low in Finland...in fact Scandinavia is generally considered expensive
(b) in Finland, like it seems in most developed countries, the private sector earns a little bit more than the public sector.

Now, anyone found a country in the world where the average p.s. wage is higher than in Ireland ? And yet some in our p.s. do not think the p.s. in Ireland is overpaid ?

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

the unions cannot be got onside just as the taliban cannot be got on side in afghanistan , both must be crushed

Jaysus! I wouldn't like to live in a society where people were denied the right of freedom of association, or the right to be represented.

What next: golf clubs; lawyers? [Hmm. Maybe there is a case to be made...]

Riskymove

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus! I wouldn't like to live in a society where people were denied the right of freedom of association, or the right to be represented.

What next: golf clubs; lawyers? [Hmm. Maybe there is a case to be made...]

pity the Republicans are out of the White House, they were probably considering where to land next

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus! I wouldn't like to live in a society where people were denied the right of freedom of association, or the right to be represented.

What next: golf clubs; lawyers? [Hmm. Maybe there is a case to be made...]

Representation based on social and financial begrudgery and a sense of entitlement is, in my opinion, misrepresenting the workers.
It is of course a very populist approach in this country... cos we all love to hate successful people...
Socialism... the politics of the jealous!

I am not against 'unions'.. I am against the current unions and their campaign of divide and conquer.

What is wrong with Golf Clubs?
Or... what is wrong with rich people?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I wouldn't like to live in a society where people were denied the right of freedom of association, or the right to be represented.

Neither would I, but yet the country is paying the cost of having surrendered to the p.s. unions during the Bertie era. The unions said jump, Bertie said how high ? Maybe it helped him justify his own pay level of being more than the p.m. of the UK, or Germany or France.

Now, to get back to the thread point, anyone found a country in the world where the average p.s. wage is higher than in Ireland ?

Celticfire

[QUOTE=jimmmy;62342119
Do police in other countries , for example, have to work a full 30 years before they are entitled to this amount, like the Gardai are here ? [/QUOTE]

From Suffolk county Police website, 2007 wages.

SALARY
2007 starting base salary for a Police Officer is $57,811. With five (5) years of service, the base salary is $97,958*. These figures do not include paid benefits.

BENEFITS
Full salary and benefits during entire training period.

Paid family dental, optical and medical plans.

Longevity pay increments begin after five (5) years of service.

Fifteen (15) paid vacation days first year of service, increasing to twenty-seven (27) days after five (5) years of service.

Thirteen (13) sick leave days first year of service, increasing to twenty-six (26) days after the first three (3) years of service. Unused sick leave days are cumulative.

* Under 2007 labor agreement


Three (3) paid personal days first year of service, increasing to five (5) days after three (3) years of service.

Night shift payments.

All officers receive thirteen (13) paid holidays.

All uniforms and equipment are supplied by the Department. A yearly uniform cleaning allotment is provided to each officer.

Non-contributory pension plan. Members are eligible for retirement after twenty (20) years of service at 50% of three (3) year final average salary. Vested retirement plan after five (5) years.

Promotions to the ranks of Sergeant, Lieutenant and Captain are through competitive Civil Service Examination. Positions above the rank of Captain are appointed by the Commissioner of Police.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.. consider the cost of similar cars between here and there.

Toyota corolla:

Ireland, from €21,670 to €24,050

US, from $15,350 - $20,050 (€10,482-€13,692)

joolsveer

jimmmy wrote: »

Thank you. It is interesting ,considering
(A) the cost of living is not very low in Finland...in fact Scandinavia is generally considered expensive
(b) in Finland, like it seems in most developed countries, the private sector earns a little bit more than the public sector.

FYI Finland is not in Scandinavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

NinjaTruncs

jimmmy wrote: »

paid "career breaks"....where you get paid up to 36,000 euro to take up to 3 years off work, to raise your kids, or to go on a round the world holiday or whatever you're having yourself?

As much as i think the PS are over paid, the above isn't quite correct. That isn't a normal perk, it was something brought in to cut the numbers down in the short term.

The deal was not 'up to' is was take three years and then when you returned you would not be guaranteed a job in the same location/department and you may have to wait up to a year to get one.

Also where my wife works she knew three people who went for it and all were turned down as the department wouldn't have enough staff to cover them.

jimmmy

joolsveer wrote: »

FYI Finland is not in Scandinavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

Thanks for that...I knew it was open to debate...in the third sentence of the wikipedia link you kindly supply it says " While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland".......Regardless of how the term Scandinavia is used outside the region, the terms Nordic countries and Nordic region are used officially and unambiguously to identify the nations of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland as well as the Danish territory of the Faroe Islands and the Finnish territory of Åland as politically and culturally similar entities".

I will not use the term Scandinavia as loosely again, so thank you.

My main point was merely the cost of living in that part of the world is not very low

gurramok

From Celticfire's post, we have to compare a police officer's salary to the worlds No.1 economic superpower to find where a Garda's pay and conditions can be beaten?

Darragh29

jimmmy wrote: »

The statistic of average public service pay - across the spectrum of over 300,000 public servants in Ireland - is available from the Irish Central Statistics office ( CSO ) and is 966 euro per week.

Here's my question... I've mates who are paramedics, nurses, gardai, social workers, teachers, none of them as far as I know are on 966 Euro a week or anywhere remotely near it. These people tell me they can't afford to go out for a pint on a Saturday night and are struggling to pay their mortgage...

I'd love to sit down and do the maths on this one...

jimmmy

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

As much as i think the PS are over paid, the above isn't quite correct. That isn't a normal perk, it was something brought in to cut the numbers down in the short term.

Fair point, I knew it was something " brought in to cut the numbers down in the short term". It may not have been a perk that was available many years ago, to to some availing of it now I am sure it is a perk. To my cousin who told me about it, and who is availing of it, it is like winning the lotto, as she was considering taking 2 or 3 years off to be with her kids...and now she gets paid for it, as she told me herself. She asked her boss about it, he told her to go for it, " it's a great opportunity" , and the job would be there for her when she came back;). I do not blame her, that is the system. She works hard while she is there I am sure, and taking time off to help her kids with homework etc is something commendable and worthwhile I am sure. Single p.s. people without kids may of course use the dosh ( up to 36 grand ) to holiday around the world or whatever they want ...thats up to them.

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

From Celticfire's post, we have to compare a police officer's salary to the worlds No.1 economic superpower to find where a Garda's pay and conditions can be beaten?

Do police salaries vary from state to state in the USA ? State taxes do.