Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 1:57pm

Indeed, but the topic of this thread; is "Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world?"

Which is what is the issue here; not whether they are overpaid/deliver value for money. loads of threads about that already.

optocynic · 02-10-2009 2:01pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Indeed, but the topic of this thread; is "Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world?"

Which is what is the issue here; not whether they are overpaid/deliver value for money. loads of threads about that already.

I just gave my opinion on the thread... Since my opinion is rational and lucid.. should that just mean it is not relevant in this thread?

gurramok · 02-10-2009 2:16pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Because something cannot be disproved does not make it fact. If you want to make a claim that the Irish PS are the best paid in the world, then the onus is on you to show that without exceptions, they are the highest paid. If I was to go about God and my only defence was YOU CAN'T DISPROVE HIM, you'd hardly take this as concrete proof of his existance.

So far, I can't find salaries that beat the Irish ones, can you?

Do some work and contribute to the thread.

kickoutthejams wrote:

Posting the PS averages for Australia (ignoring that Australia has the 3rd lowest cost of living in the developed world) and the US (lowest cost of living in the developed world) is not proving that the Irish PS is the most well paid.

Eh, having high wages feeds into a higher cost of living. You missed that.

P. Breathnach · 02-10-2009 2:30pm

gurramok wrote: »

... Eh, having high wages feeds into a higher cost of living. You missed that.

And a high cost of living necessitates high pay to achieve comparable standards of living.

A proper comparison should involve both pay and cost of living. Such a methodology exists, where pay is compared, not in absolute terms, but in terms of purchasing power. The real question should be "Does an Irish [insert job title] have a higher standard of living than a [insert nationality, insert comparable job title]?"

You can take it a step further by asking "Is this appropriate, taking account of the general level of prosperity in each of the two countries?". This last question is particularly interesting right now, given that the standard of living in Ireland seems, for the moment, to be falling.

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 2:40pm

gurramok wrote: »

So far, I can't find salaries that beat the Irish ones, can you?

Do some work and contribute to the thread.

Not my job lad; you're making the claim. The onus is on you. Not me.

Otherwise, Boards has gone in an extremely strange direction; you can post a thread asking for people to prove to you that Irish public sector workers are the highest paid in the world. When noone proves or disproves it you can then treat it as established fact.
Wonderful. Should probably post a thread asking for proof that God exists, when noone can prove or disprove it, then I can treat it as QED.

But sure why not; Greece, Italy and the Netherlands have average public sector wages double that of the average private sector wage.
Document

gurramok wrote: »

Eh, having high wages feeds into a higher cost of living. You missed that.

Out of interest; what's the percentage of PS workers to the Irish population?
The average PS ratio of the labour force is 14%, (30% in Denmark and Sweden)

jimmmy · 02-10-2009 2:42pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And a high cost of living necessitates high pay to achieve comparable standards of living.

We are in the EC with free movement of goods across borders...many Irish people do shopping over the internet / up North....nothing to stop you. Many things were never cheaper in real terms ....be it a one euro McDonalds hamburger or a flight to Oz. ....so no need to keep harping about the cost of living. It is falling, + will fall further once the p.s. wage + pensions are reduced. If taxes, rates etc in this country reduced it would help too.

jimmmy · 02-10-2009 2:45pm

erictheviking wrote: »

It would cost a hell of a lot more than 36k to keep that woman and her kids on welfare for 3 years!

Both her and her husband are very comfortably off...I doubt she would get much welfare if she stoped working ? I mention the p.s. paid career break as its just one of the perks of the job....I call it a perk, because nobody would pay me 36 grand over 3 years if I was to take off to Oz or look after kids for 3 years.

Now...back googling trying to find other countries with an average p.s. wage rate close to Ireland....not even the p.s. sector it seems can find one ....

Dannyboy83 · 02-10-2009 2:52pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And a high cost of living necessitates high pay to achieve comparable standards of living.

A proper comparison should involve both pay and cost of living. Such a methodology exists, where pay is compared, not in absolute terms, but in terms of purchasing power. The real question should be "Does an Irish [insert job title] have a higher standard of living than a [insert nationality, insert comparable job title]?"

You can take it a step further by asking "Is this appropriate, taking account of the general level of prosperity in each of the two countries?". This last question is particularly interesting right now, given that the standard of living in Ireland seems, for the moment, to be falling.

Good post.
This explains why Public Sector cut backs are manageable.

Many PS workers are worried about their mortgages understandably, however, with a falling cost of living, they will still retain a similar overall quality of life, and most importantly, still able to manage their mortgages while the country gets back on its feet.
Yes, a bigger percentage of their wages will be required to repay their mortgages, but a smaller percentage of their wages will be required for everything else.

This is an unprecedented opportunity for Fianna Fail and the Unions to agree to reform of the HSE.

gurramok · 02-10-2009 4:05pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And a high cost of living necessitates high pay to achieve comparable standards of living.

A proper comparison should involve both pay and cost of living. Such a methodology exists, where pay is compared, not in absolute terms, but in terms of purchasing power. The real question should be "Does an Irish [insert job title] have a higher standard of living than a [insert nationality, insert comparable job title]?"

You can take it a step further by asking "Is this appropriate, taking account of the general level of prosperity in each of the two countries?". This last question is particularly interesting right now, given that the standard of living in Ireland seems, for the moment, to be falling.

Chicken and egg. The PS should jump on costs and most of the private sector has already. We know that the PS have not got a leg to stand on with the following:

A - Cost of living falling
B - Country going broke, they're unaffordable. Where is the money to pay them coming from?
C - they will not commnad their present salaries in anoy other country.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Not my job lad; you're making the claim. The onus is on you. Not me.

The question was asked in topic "Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?".

You're silence to try to disprove the question speaks volumes.

kickoutthejams wrote:

But sure why not; Greece, Italy and the Netherlands have average public sector wages double that of the average private sector wage.
Document

Why couldn't you find that first contribution of stats a few pages back?

GDP, useless to compare as the Irish GDP is seriously distorted by MNC's. That doc is from 2003, any updated one?

kickoutthejams wrote:

Out of interest; what's the percentage of PS workers to the Irish population?
The average PS ratio of the labour force is 14%, (30% in Denmark and Sweden)

About 18% as far as I know. It gets higher if you want to compare employment numbers as 160,000 lost their jobs in the private sector.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Good post.
This explains why Public Sector cut backs are manageable.

Many PS workers are worried about their mortgages understandably, however, with a falling cost of living, they will still retain a similar overall quality of life, and most importantly, still able to manage their mortgages while the country gets back on its feet.
Yes, a bigger percentage of their wages will be required to repay their mortgages, but a smaller percentage of their wages will be required for everything else..

Tell the PS that, they don't listen. Its a mé féin attitude by them.

Riskymove · 02-10-2009 4:15pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

This is an unprecedented opportunity for Fianna Fail and the Unions to agree to reform of the HSE.

never gonna happen

there is however, a great opportunity for the Government to tackle Union stranglehold in health and education and the ridiculous work practices therein.

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 4:53pm

gurramok wrote: »

The question was asked in topic "Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?".

You're silence to try to disprove the question speaks volumes.

And your inability to prove your own point also speaks volume.
Is the Irish PS highly paid?
Yup
Is the Irish PS the highest paid in the world?
I dunno, and it seems neither do you.
But that seems to be sufficient to prove that "HURR DURR THE IRISH PS IS THE HIGHEST PAID IN THE WORLD"

Your logic is extremely poor;
The Irish PS is highly paid by Irish standards
Some countries have lower paid PS than Ireland
Ergo; Ireland's public sector is the highest in the world.
Non sequiter.
And inductive reasoning.
Poor show.

gurramok wrote: »

Why couldn't you find that first contribution of stats a few pages back?

What?

gurramok wrote: »

GDP, useless to compare as the Irish GDP is seriously distorted by MNC's.

What do the MNC have with it? Surely they are present in every country.

gurramok wrote: »

That doc is from 2003, any updated one?

So far, you have supported your argument with links from 2001 and 2007 so I hardly see why you take such issue with a document from 2003.

gurramok wrote: »

About 18% as far as I know. It gets higher if you want to compare employment numbers as 160,000 lost their jobs in the private sector.

Can 18% really be to blame for our cost of living being the second highest in the EU (after Denmark, where 30% of the labour force is employed in the PS)?
Sounds extremly disproportionate.

caeser · 02-10-2009 5:09pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well you would say that considering your wife is contributing what, maybe half your household income.

Just on all this prep work, how can your wife possibly spend up to 6 hours preparing for a class that last 5 hours including breaks, and its junior infants for gods sake not a nuclear physics class so the correcting can't be that difficult, and if she is giving out that much homework maybe she needs to re-assess it and consider how long the kids are spending on it

I have a lot of teacher friends, have lived with quite a few and not for 1 second am i putting up with this how tough they have it rubbish

Have you ever taught a class?. Doubt it. The workload is huge. All you have to do is look at your kids books. who puts all those dots on the pages for them to follow to learn their numbers. who makes laminates of words for them to learn at home. Teachers cannot plan to go into class the next day empty handed it would be suicidal. She is not the only one, i know lots of her teacher friends who do the same as her, its not an isolated case trust me. Its not physics but the actual amount of work is necessary. She wont apolgise for the work she puts into her job and for actually giving a s*it. I made a note on this to highlight value for money so dont get sidetracked on questioning her teaching ability.

jimmmy · 02-10-2009 5:16pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

The Irish PS is highly paid by Irish standards
Some countries have lower paid PS than Ireland

It appears the Irish public service is very highly paid by world standards because , while statistics from numerous other countries on p.s. pay have been looked at, no other country in the world can be found to have as high an average p.s. wage as Ireland. No other country is even found to be close.

Its easier, of course, to compare individuals pay eg as was said in another thread, "John Hurley, the retiring head of the Irish Central Bank, is the highest paid central banker in the world, getting € 368,703 per year. The head of the Bank of England gets the equivalent of € 283,564 per year, the head of the European Central bank gets € 345,252 per year and the head of the US federal reserve Bank gets the equivalent of € 186,600. "

caeser · 02-10-2009 5:18pm

I know that a lot of people have lost their jobs in all areas. public and private and i know that lots of people have had pay cuts in the private sector but also i know people in the private sector that have had pay increases following on from the national pay deal. there is no regulation of pay if you ask me in both sectors.

jimmmy · 02-10-2009 5:19pm

caeser wrote: »

Have you ever taught a class?

I cannot answer for him, but I assume like most others he spent a lot of time in classes, knows quite a few teachers nowadays and may even be aware of how overpaid our teachers are with their European counterparts, and how they take less holidays etc.

caeser wrote: »

The workload is huge. All you have to do is look at your kids books. who puts all those dots on the pages for them to follow to learn their numbers.

Last time I looked at kids books it was the printers who printed the dots, not any teacher.;):D

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 5:20pm

jimmmy wrote: »

It appears the Irish public service is very highly paid by world standards because , while statistics from numerous other countries on p.s. pay have been looked at, no other country in the world can be found to have as high an average p.s. wage as Ireland. No other country is even found to be close.

Its easier, of course, to compare individuals pay eg as was said in another thread, "John Hurley, the retiring head of the Irish Central Bank, is the highest paid central banker in the world, getting € 368,703 per year. The head of the Bank of England gets the equivalent of € 283,564 per year, the head of the European Central bank gets € 345,252 per year and the head of the US federal reserve Bank gets the equivalent of € 186,600. "

So far, I've seen stats on New York, France, Finland, Australia and the UK.
THat's it (are there any others in this thread I've forgotten?)
That strikes you as "numerous" other countries, and enough to base the claim that we have the highest PS pay in the world around?
Sorry mate, it doesn't work like that.

Individual pay has extremely little to do with your original question; we're talking about an entire organisation. Not one guy.

caeser · 02-10-2009 5:28pm

jimmmy wrote: »

I cannot answer for him, but I assume like most others he spent a lot of time in classes, knows quite a few teachers nowadays and may even be aware of how overpaid our teachers are with their European counterparts, and how they take less holidays etc.

Last time I looked at kids books it was the printers who printed the dots, not any teacher.;):D

Only going by what i see. In her school they dont make the kids buy work books. Trying to save money for the parents you know. Like the man said horses for courses. Just cos you dont feel they deserve it, it dont make it wrong.

gurramok · 02-10-2009 5:35pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

And your inability to prove your own point also speaks volume.
Is the Irish PS highly paid?
Yup
Is the Irish PS the highest paid in the world?
I dunno, and it seems neither do you.
But that seems to be sufficient to prove that "HURR DURR THE IRISH PS IS THE HIGHEST PAID IN THE WORLD"

Your logic is extremely poor;
The Irish PS is highly paid by Irish standards
Some countries have lower paid PS than Ireland
Ergo; Ireland's public sector is the highest in the world.
Non sequiter.
And inductive reasoning.
Poor show.

Nope, poor show by you. You cannot find any country that disproves the OP's point. I've researched, you have not so you have not got a leg to stand on.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What?

Took your time to do some research and post it here.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What do the MNC have with it? Surely they are present in every country.

Can't believe you asked that. http://www.rte.ie/business/economyataglance/gdp.html
90%+ of Irish exports are by foreign MNC's, unique in the EU.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

So far, you have supported your argument with links from 2001 and 2007 so I hardly see why you take such issue with a document from 2003.

I've double checked my links, none go back to 2001. 2006 seems to be the oldest.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Can 18% really be to blame for our cost of living being the second highest in the EU (after Denmark, where 30% of the labour force is employed in the PS)?
Sounds extremly disproportionate.

They pay much higher direct taxes to pay for them, we don't. Do you wish we do?

jimmmy · 02-10-2009 5:44pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

So far, I've seen stats on New York, France, Finland, Australia and the UK.
THat's it (are there any others in this thread I've forgotten?)
That strikes you as "numerous" other countries, and enough to base the claim that we have the highest PS pay in the world around?.

Other countries have been looked at as well. So far, nobody has found one close to Irish pay levels.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Individual pay has extremely little to do with your original question; we're talking about an entire organisation. Not one guy.

Correct, thats why the Irish statistics were based on figures released by the C.S.O., which knows the pay of the 330,000 or so public servants. That is their job : they are the Central Statistics Office. Can you google the statistics office of any countries you think may have higher p.s. pay than Ireland ? You may find something others cannot.;)

NewDubliner · 02-10-2009 5:54pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Other countries have been looked at as well. So far, nobody has found one close to Irish pay levels.

Or Irish house prices?

gurramok · 02-10-2009 5:56pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or Irish house prices?

Now, thats an equally hard to find measure!!

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 6:04pm

gurramok wrote: »

Nope, poor show by you. You cannot find any country that disproves the OP's point. I've researched, you have not so you have not got a leg to stand on.

Your own logic is extremely sketchy. Throwing up half a dozen countries that have lower standards of living than Ireland is not a justification for Ireland having the highest PS wages in the world.

Come back with definative proof that we have the highest paid PS in the world and you'll have a leg to stand on.

gurramok wrote: »

Took your time to do some research and post it here.

Heh; why?
You have yet to prove that the Irish PS are the highest paid in the world.

gurramok wrote: »

Can't believe you asked that. http://www.rte.ie/business/economyataglance/gdp.html
90%+ of Irish exports are by foreign MNC's, unique in the EU.

Grand, but our GDP/GNP ratio is not higher than 2/1.
So proportionatly, our PS is not higher paid than the Netherlands.
Next.

gurramok wrote: »

I've double checked my links, none go back to 2001. 2006 seems to be the oldest.

Recheck them then.
The Finnish example (2008) you used was based on data from 2001.

gurramok wrote: »

They pay much higher direct taxes to pay for them, we don't. Do you wish we do?

Yup, I'm grand with that.
Then again, I'm living in Belgium, which is among the most highly taxed countries in the EU.

Lockstep · 02-10-2009 6:18pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Other countries have been looked at as well. So far, nobody has found one close to Irish pay levels.

Which?
THose are the only ones I came across in the thread.
Certainly not enough to prove that we have the highest paid PS in the world.

Other countries sector wages seem tricky to find; for example, can anyone find the average public sector wage for Denmark or Sweden?

jimmmy wrote: »

Correct, thats why the Irish statistics were based on figures released by the C.S.O., which knows the pay of the 330,000 or so public servants. That is their job : they are the Central Statistics Office. Can you google the statistics office of any countries you think may have higher p.s. pay than Ireland ? You may find something others cannot.;)

I don't think you'll find I am disputing that Irish PS salaries are high.
I just remain sceptical that they are the highest in the world, as there is no evidence of this so far.

NewDubliner · 02-10-2009 7:12pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I just remain sceptical that they are the highest in the world, as there is no evidence of this so far.

No, no, no...the point of this thread is that jimmmy can't prove that Irish PS salaries are the highest in the world, so he's turned the tables and is demanding that everyone prove (to his satisfaction) his opinion wrong.

No doublt, he'll be hard to satisfy.

optocynic · 02-10-2009 8:09pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

No, no, no...the point of this thread is that jimmmy can't prove that Irish PS salaries are the highest in the world, so he's turned the tables and is demanding that everyone prove (to his satisfaction) his opinion wrong.

No doublt, he'll be hard to satisfy.

I don't think/care if the PS are paid the best in the world, galaxy, universe...
I care that we don't get value for money... and that there is no accountability!

NewDubliner · 02-10-2009 9:22pm

optocynic wrote: »

I care that we don't get value for money... and that there is no accountability!

Same here. Isn't the government supposed to ensure that we get value for money? Like not wasting it on moving government departments into a minister's consituency or shifting a state agency onto a cronies' site?

murphaph · 02-10-2009 10:34pm

NewDubliner wrote: »

Same here. Isn't the government supposed to ensure that we get value for money?

The government includes the civil service of course ;-) They administer the country and are responsible for spending our money wisely.

Tipp Man · 02-10-2009 10:41pm

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look New dubliner i am sick to death of reading every post of yours harping on about banks and developers

I have no idea of your personal financial circumstances, nor do i care

But do you accept and admit that YOU, and everyone else in the country, is personally responsible for YOUR(and theirs) personal finances and that if YOU(or anyone) has over borrowed, bought a house that was too expensive, is in negative equity, can't meet repayments, whatever, then its is YOUR (theirs) responsibility??? PLease answer this clearly and without throwing out your bank/developers garbage

NewDubliner wrote: »

Or Irish house prices?

new dubliner would you be able to answer my question above please

NewDubliner · 03-10-2009 8:55am

Tipp Man wrote: »

new dubliner would you be able to answer my question above please

Everyone should be responsible for their own debts and that includes banks and property developers and not just ordinary workers.

It is inequitable to bail out banks, to allow property developers to hide behind the shield of limited liability, while at the same time reneging on agreed terms and conditions of employees. If mortgage repayment agreements are set in granite, who not employment contracts?

I take it that since you agree that everyone should be responsible for their own debts, we can also agree that the concept of limited liability should be abolished from company law?

jimmmy · 03-10-2009 10:43am

NewDubliner wrote: »

I take it that since you agree that everyone should be responsible for their own debts, we can also agree that the concept of limited liability should be abolished from company law?

:D:D I know some trade union supporters are living in cloud cukoo land, but to suggest that Ireland should "abolish the concept of limited liability" would mean Ireland would be unique in the western world, and nobody would invest here. No American companies, nobody. Ireland, the new Zimbabwe.

N.B. for what its worth, banks usually look for personal guarantees and / or other security before lending money to limited companies. eg I know one small limited co. which went bust, and the 2 directors had to pay back the loan to AIB over many years. In the case of the NAMA properties, average cash paid by the developers was I gather about 20%.
Banks did generally not give 100% loans on large amounts ...they were stupid but not that stupid. Developers generally ( during the tiger era ) had profits from their previous development which they used as deposits / re-invested in new developments.

Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

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