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Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

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    #122
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Indeed, personal guarantees are often if not usually sought from directors by banks for business loans. Most landlords also seek personal guarantees from directors for rent etc. The (excessive) protection allowed by Limited liability has seen this seeking of personal guarantees more and more.


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    #123
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    but to suggest that Ireland should "abolish the concept of limited liability" would mean Ireland would be unique in the western world,
    I think it's time we reconsidered the special privileges given to business, don't you? Think outside of the box? Stop running with the herd? Isn't that what got us into trouble?


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    #124
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think it's time we reconsidered the special privileges given to business, don't you? Think outside of the box? Stop running with the herd? Isn't that what got us into trouble?
    Are you Robert Mugabe ? As I said, to suggest that Ireland should "abolish the concept of limited liability" would mean Ireland would be unique in the western world, and nobody would invest here. No American companies, nobody. Is this what you want ?


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    #125
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    I'm living in Belgium, which is among the most highly taxed countries in the EU.

    Maybe you can check out the statistics on Belgium so....lots of countries have been checked so far and (unsurprisingly ) none have been found to have average public sector wage anywhere near as high as Irelands. I will leave Belgium up to you. ;) If you think average public sector pay in Belgium is higher than the 966 per week it is in Ireland you probably can supply some helpful links please ?

    After all, you may have found the one country in the world which can be found which pays its public sector workers better than in Ireland....it being "among most highly taxed countries in the EU" as you say ! C'mon, don't let the Belgians beat us !


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    #126
    TCP/IP_King
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭TCP/IP_King


    Some wage stats I found recently, funny enough from Jimmy's own sector. The print is a bit flaky but readable. Add Jimmy's 25% premium and see if any of the comparable PS boys here can confirm their wages are at this level.


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    #127
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    TCP/IP_King wrote: »
    Some wage stats I found recently, funny enough from Jimmy's own sector..
    Did I say I work in the very specialised sectors mentioned in that limited, unofficial report you link to ? I think not. Could you provide a more reliable link, covering a broader spectrum of people ?


    TCP/IP_King wrote: »
    The print is a bit flaky but readable. Add Jimmy's 25% premium

    What 25% premium ? Do you mean the 25% premium as found by the ESRI in 2006, and which did not take in to account the shorter working week in the public sector etc ?

    Anyway, back to the thread ...still searching through average public sector wage levels in other countries and am amazed at how low they all ( to date , at any rate ) are compared to the Irish p.s. wage as confirmed by our own c.s.o..


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    #128
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Are you Robert Mugabe ? As I said, to suggest that Ireland should "abolish the concept of limited liability" would mean....nobody would invest here. No American companies, nobody. Is this what you want ?
    Isn't that already the case since the your cherished private sector banks and developers flushed billions down the toilet and our international reputation with it?

    What I want is for people to take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions. Don't you agree with the concept of accountability?

    Limited liability means that ultimately, ordinary workers will pay the gambling debts of banks and developers.


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    #129
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Isn't that already the case since the your cherished private sector banks and developers flushed billions down the toilet and our international reputation with it?

    Why not blame the govt and the regulator and the Central bank ....they are the ones to blame for mismanaging the economy. If others broke the law they should face the consequences. Yes I think people should take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions. People in the private sector generally do....most of the 1800,000 anyway.

    Now, back to the thread...


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    #130
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Why not blame the govt and the regulator and the Central bank ....they are the ones to blame for mismanaging the economy.
    Who was cooking the books in the banks?
    jimmmy wrote: »
    If others broke the law they should face the consequences.
    But, the law favours a rich elite.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Yes I think people should take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions. People in the private sector generally do....most of the 1800,000 anyway.
    No they're facing the consequences of the actions of a rich elite. Strange that you don't know this.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Now, back to the thread...
    Still not getting the answer you want?


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    #131
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Maybe you can check out the statistics on Belgium so....lots of countries have been checked so far and (unsurprisingly ) none have been found to have average public sector wage anywhere near as high as Irelands. I will leave Belgium up to you. ;) If you think average public sector pay in Belgium is higher than the 966 per week it is in Ireland you probably can supply some helpful links please ?

    After all, you may have found the one country in the world which can be found which pays its public sector workers better than in Ireland....it being "among most highly taxed countries in the EU" as you say ! C'mon, don't let the Belgians beat us !

    Ive been unable to find any data on the average wage for the public sector across the board for here , maybe you could use your sleuthing skillz to find out? Youve been happy to claim that we have the highest paid PS in the world so far so Im sure youll have no trouble finding out.
    However the cost of living is quite low here so I wouldnt be too sure that PS pay is higher: im sure you understand that high taxes do not automatically mean higher wages, given that Belgium is highly federalised with three languages and a generous welfare state.
    Id be more interested in seeing the PS pay for Denmark or Sweden.

    But sure 6 countries is loads isnt it ;) It is fairly unsurprising that the countries listed so far have lower PS salaries than us; weve been looking at Australia, France and the US; all of which are famed for low cost of living (if we included New Zealand we would have a hat trick of the three developed countries with the lowest cost of living)


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    #132
    ronbyrne2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    By saying we cant afford to take any more cuts the public sector unions are saying they want the private sector to pay more tax to bridge the gap to allow them to be kept among the best paid in the world. Thisis despite the private sector collapsing as a % of economy.


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    #133
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    ronbyrne2005 wrote: »
    By saying we cant afford to take any more cuts the public sector unions are saying they want the private sector to pay more tax to bridge the gap
    That's the equation the banks and property developers want. They're fighting hard to ring-fence the costs of NAMA and the bank bailout.
    ronbyrne2005 wrote: »
    B to allow them to be kept among the best paid in the world.
    Do you have figurs for this? jimmmy has been asking for them.


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    #134
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Id be more interested in seeing the PS pay for Denmark or Sweden.

    Its quite easy to google the statistics department for whatever country you want. Even go to wikipedia and you will find some interesting facts on each country. No public service in the world has been found yet to have as high an average wage as the Irish public service. Not very surprising, when Cowen is higher paid than the prime minister of the bigger, industrialised countries like Germany, UK, France, Japan etc, and when the govt pays the head of our Central bank more than any other Central banker in the world earns. Going down the list of public servants, its interesting to compare the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In Ireland it was 38,340, In the Netherlands it was 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. This is according to a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, available now in your newsagents.

    Its not because teachers work longer hours in Ireland ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735.;)


    If the govt cheques start bouncing here, which is the highest paid country for the p.s ? Ireland is the highest known yet, but there are a few countries it is difficult to get statistics on eg some of the African countries. Is'nt it nice to know our p.s. are champions of something / nobody has challenged them yet ?


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    #135
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think it's time we reconsidered the special privileges given to business, don't you? Think outside of the box? Stop running with the herd? Isn't that what got us into trouble?

    I would say, you are the one incapable of thinking outside the box. You do not see the big picture. For recovery, we need to be more pro business than ever. We NEED jobs... we should not be penalising business.

    Read this carefully... If we hinder the ability to make profits.. NO COMPANIES WILL INVEST HERE!

    The socialist dream would be an absolute nightmare!


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    #136
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    optocynic wrote: »
    Read this carefully... If we hinder the ability to make profits.. NO COMPANIES WILL INVEST HERE!
    Read this carefully...If we support bad banks, allow wrong-doers to get away with massive swindles and maintain property prices at artifiical levels, NOBODY WILL INVEST HERE!


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    #137
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Its quite easy to google the statistics department for whatever country you want. Even go to wikipedia and you will find some interesting facts on each country. No public service in the world has been found yet to have as high an average wage as the Irish public service. Not very surprising, when Cowen is higher paid than the prime minister of the bigger, industrialised countries like Germany, UK, France, Japan etc, and when the govt pays the head of our Central bank more than any other Central banker in the world earns. Going down the list of public servants, its interesting to compare the pay of primary teachers in 2007 with 15 years experience. In Ireland it was 38,340, In the Netherlands it was 32,270, in Norway its 26,370, in Portugal it was 25,340, in Sweden it was 23,250 and in France it was 23,100. This is according to a table on page 96 of the October issue of Business Plus magazine, available now in your newsagents.
    Indeed but we are talking about public servants as a whole; not teachers specifically. Or the Central bank. I'd prefer to see the average public sector wage across the board (it's pretty common knowledge that our teachers are highly paid)

    I find it interesting you refer to the statistics offices for other countriest; the problem being that they do not give average public sector wages across the board; they give public sector indices for central and local government rather than a clear average.
    I'm a simple barman; seeing as you are so sure of the Irish PS Being the highest paid in the world, can you find the average PS wages for Denmark/Sweden/Belgium?

    jimmmy wrote: »
    Its not because teachers work longer hours in Ireland ; our school holidays etc are amongst the longest in the world. eg the OECD average is 1200 hours worked per year, in Ireland its 735.;)
    Yup, but once again, we are talking about the entire PS, not just teachers which seem to get trotted out a lot, given how well paid they are.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    If the govt cheques start bouncing here, which is the highest paid country for the p.s ? Ireland is the highest known yet, but there are a few countries it is difficult to get statistics on eg some of the African countries. Is'nt it nice to know our p.s. are champions of something / nobody has challenged them yet ?
    In this thread, I've seen France, UK, America, Australia and Finland cited. That's it (unless there's something I've missed, which is possible as my computer is acting extremely strangely and messing up loading on websites)
    Can you link me to where the average public sector wages from Japan/Germany etc have been listed?


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    #138
    Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    I think it would be fair to say that a lot of people on both sides of this debate are starting from a position they "know" reflects reality and are then mindlessly ranting and looking for figures to back up their position. Inevitably this is due to the posters pre-existing dogmatic beliefs in relation to economics.

    Thankfully, an inability to logically research an issue and form an opinion based on what the research tells you is easy to spot. Bluster, emotional rhetoric and sparse data are the hallmarks of the armchair spoofer, the result of which is a debate which spirals in to meaningless back-and-forth bickering which helps no one come to a more enlightened position. It's the definition of a useless arguement and we reached that here quite some time ago.


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    #139
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    For clarification; I don't know if the Irish is the highest paid PS in the world. I've seen no evidence for or against it.

    I would agree that it is highly paid but have yet to see that it is the pinnacle.


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    #140
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Can you link me to where the average public sector wages from Japan/Germany etc have been listed?
    I'm not sure about german pay-scales but I know for certain that once you become a Beamte (civil servant-covers teachers, police, admin staff in dole offices, etc. etc.) it is ILLEGAL to strike. You get paid a bit more than the private sector but cannot then strike and there are no unions allowed. Unions in Germany usually collectively bargain for terms in large private companies but are forbidden from this role in the german civil service. The government and only the government set the pay-scales.


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    #141
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Is there anything stopping them pulling something like the "Blue flu"


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    #142
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Is there anything stopping them pulling something like the "Blue flu"
    They know the rules when they sign up to the office of the civil service and to my knowledge there has never been a blue flu type incident.


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    #143
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    They might know the rules, but is there anything stopping them?

    Seems a bit strange to rely on their cense of civic duty etc.


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    #144
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Read this carefully...If we support bad banks, allow wrong-doers to get away with massive swindles and maintain property prices at artifiical levels, NOBODY WILL INVEST HERE!

    If you can find anywhere, where I said that we should not prosectute the wrong-doers in the Financial sector... let me know...

    Otherwise... stop moaning about your mortgage... we all bought when things were too good... and we should all now accept our mistakes..
    Stop looking for a bail out from the government.. or especially the successful private sector workers..


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    #145
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    For clarification; I don't know if the Irish is the highest paid PS in the world. I've seen no evidence for or against it.

    I would agree that it is highly paid but have yet to see that it is the pinnacle.

    Would you agree that inflated salaries and lack of performance monitoring/accountability should be tackled?


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    #146
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    In this thread, I've seen France, UK, America, Australia and Finland cited. That's it (unless there's something I've missed, which is possible as my computer is acting extremely strangely and messing up loading on websites)
    Can you link me to where the average public sector wages from Japan/Germany etc have been listed?

    The link for Germany is as follows : http://www.gurn.info/en/topics/global-trade-union-strategies-union-renewal/organizing-workers/informal-economy-and-precarious-working-conditions/precarious-employment-in-the-public-and-private-sectors-comparing-the-uk-and-germany
    where it states monthly average public sector wage in Germany in 2005 was 3080.20 per month i.e. € 36962.40 per year. This is less than the Irish public sector wage. Japan is also less but I cannot find the link at the moment....but like every other country in the world I bet its less than the average Irish public sector wage of 966 euro per week ( as confirmed by the Irish c.s.o. ). This despite the fact both Germany and Japan are successful industrialised very large economies, and huge innovators / exporters.


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    #147
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Do you have a link to the average German age after 2005? They had a massive boom between 2005-2008 so would be interesting to see how the wages stacked up there.


    Plus, East German PS wages didn't match up to western German wages; Ver.Di (union) sought negotiations to get Eastern PS wages up to Western PS levels by 2007.


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    #148
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    optocynic wrote: »
    Would you agree that inflated salaries and lack of performance monitoring/accountability should be tackled?

    Depends in what context; monitoring teacher performance is tricky for example (monitoring a student in St James' Street would be more difficult than doing the same in Blackrock)

    Lowering PS wages is pretty much inevitable by now but would need to be done in an equitable manner (slashing all wages by 10% no, slashing consultant wages by proportionally more than clerical officers grand)


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    #149
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    Do you have a link to the average German age after 2005?.
    No ...only evidence from a few sectors wages did not increase by huge amounts between 05-08. The Germans really believe its important to have very low inflation, it is part of their phyche , possibly due to the huge inflation they suffered in the early thirties.
    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    They had a massive boom between 2005-2008 so would be interesting to see how the wages stacked up there..
    Interesting to see you think they had a massive boom between 2005-2008 when the very reason ECB interest rates were kept low in 05 and 06 was to stimulate the economy/ stave off recession in those times in Germany !

    Plus,
    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    East German PS wages didn't match up to western German wages; Ver.Di (union) sought negotiations to get Eastern PS wages up to Western PS levels by 2007.
    the average german is the average german wage. Wages in Belmullet or West Donegal or West Cork are generally not as high as in the the greater Dublin area either ( no more than the price of a pint ) , but average Irish wages are average Irish wages.


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    #150
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Cowen mentioned earlier in the year that we should expect a "10% drop in standard of living".

    And thats exactly what he meant. He didn't mean that everything goes down by 10%. He meant he needs to take 10% out of the economy and funnel it into the states finances one way or the other.
    Also I'm pretty sure when he said 'we' it was more a figure of speech that didn't really include himself and his colleagues. 'We' is more like a broader 'we' that more or less just includes all of 'us' but surely not 'them'.


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    #151
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    jimmmy wrote: »
    No ...only evidence from a few sectors wages did not increase by huge amounts between 05-08. The Germans really believe its important to have very low inflation, it is part of their phyche , possibly due to the huge inflation they suffered in the early thirties.
    The first sentence makes very little sense. Can you clarify it please?
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Interesting to see you think they had a massive boom between 2005-2008 when the very reason ECB interest rates were kept low in 05 and 06 was to stimulate the economy/ stave off recession in those times in Germany !
    Strange then, that the Economist reported a boom in those years along with a creation of 1.6million jobs in Germany.

    jimmmy wrote: »
    Plus,
    the average german is the average german wage. Wages in Belmullet or West Donegal or West Cork are generally not as high as in the the greater Dublin area either ( no more than the price of a pint ) , but average Irish wages are average Irish wages.
    You're not seriously comparing the stagnation of East Germany to western Ireland are you?


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