Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Depends in what context; monitoring teacher performance is tricky for example (monitoring a student in St James' Street would be more difficult than doing the same in Blackrock))

That is a very far-right-wing, elitist attitude to take. Are teachers not for the most part socialists... ergo, do they not belive we are 'all equal',,

Of course, I agree with you on this issue.. it's just hypocritical of teachers to claim this as a problem.

Teacher performance analysis in this day and age, should be done by random class visits, possible recorded classes etc.. and not test scores alone!

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Lowering PS wages is pretty much inevitable by now but would need to be done in an equitable manner (slashing all wages by 10% no, slashing consultant wages by proportionally more than clerical officers grand)

Of course, this is what will happen... but why has no one in th public eye suggested reverse benchmarking.. if it was fair then... it should be fair now!!

jimmmy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

The first sentence makes very little sense. Can you clarify it please?

German inflation increased hugely between WWI + WW2...I think it was it was called hyper-inflation ....you needed a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread etc....germans saw their savings eroded etc ... it was one of the things which helped Hitler come to power...since then Germany has had a thing about inflation rates / inflation....it has always wanted to keep them under control. Do you really think average public sector wages rose in Germany from the € € 36962.40 per year they were in 2005 to our 966 per week ? Especially when interest rates were relatively low?

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You're not seriously comparing the stagnation of East Germany to western Ireland are you?

No, I was stating how wages in countries can vary within that country....I am very well aware that east / west germany is totally different to this country.

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

That is a very far-right-wing, elitist attitude to take. Are teachers not for the most part socialists... ergo, do they not belive we are 'all equal',,

Seriously; what?
Teaching a kid in an area of chronic unemployment is not the same as teaching someone in an affulent area. Surely you already know this.

Firstly; Where are you getting the ideas that teachers are socialists?
Secondly; socialism does not mean everything is equal; a cornerstone of socialist ideology is that there are massive inequalities in society. But people are of equal worth sure.

optocynic wrote: »

Of course, I agree with you on this issue.. it's just hypocritical of teachers to claim this as a problem.

I don';t see it as hypocritical at all; do you really think teaching someone from a deprived background/no money for grinds/little parental support etc is not a problem if you are expected to deliver equal results as someone with a wealthy family?

optocynic wrote: »

Teacher performance analysis in this day and age, should be done by random class visits, possible recorded classes etc.. and not test scores alone!

I really don't think test scores can be factored in at all, but I do see some merit in the other ideas you suggested.

optocynic wrote: »

Of course, this is what will happen... but why has no one in th public eye suggested reverse benchmarking.. if it was fair then... it should be fair now!!

I've seen quite a few people here support reverse benchmarking. I'm one of them.

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

That is a very far-right-wing, elitist attitude to take. Are teachers not for the most part socialists... ergo, do they not belive we are 'all equal',,

The irony! It is generally right-wingers who complain about teachers being socialists.

Teacher performance analysis in this day and age, should be done by random class visits, possible recorded classes etc.. and not test scores alone!

And who should be the judges of performance? What criteria should they use? How might they ensure that assessments are objectively fair? More particularly, if a teacher is deemed to be under-performing, how might they prove that?

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Seriously; what?
Teaching a kid in an area of chronic unemployment is not the same as teaching someone in an affulent area. Surely you already know this.

Of course I know this, and I will go one further and say it is mostly the parent's fault and not the teacher's.. That part of the post was in jest...

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Firstly; Where are you getting the ideas that teachers are socialists?
Secondly; socialism does not mean everything is equal; a cornerstone of socialist ideology is that there are massive inequalities in society. But people are of equal worth sure.

Teacher's are socilaists when they think they should be paid the same as highly qualifies and experienced engineers etc... If they were not socialists, they would feel physicaly ill when O'Connor speaks for them in public! That man is a total hypocrite..

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I don';t see it as hypocritical at all; do you really think teaching someone from a deprived background/no money for grinds/little parental support etc is not a problem if you are expected to deliver equal results as someone with a wealthy family?.

Once again... I fully agree with this...

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I really don't think test scores can be factored in at all, but I do see some merit in the other ideas you suggested.?

I think you are wrong there... for the simple reason that, a teacher may in fact be talented enough to grind out some great test scores in a hellhole.. and if so... they should be rewarded... and the rewards should be HUGE!

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I've seen quite a few people here support reverse benchmarking. I'm one of them.

I always knew you were rational!... Kudos!
No hope of the unions acting like big-boys and accepting such a fair move though?

Lockstep

jimmmy wrote: »

German inflation increased hugely between WWI + WW2...I think it was it was called hyper-inflation ....you needed a wheelbarrow of money to buy a loaf of bread etc....germans saw their savings eroded etc ... it was one of the things which helped Hitler come to power...since then Germany has had a thing about inflation rates / inflation....it has always wanted to keep them under control. Do you really think average public sector wages rose in Germany from the € € 36962.40 per year they were in 2005 to our 966 per week ? Especially when interest rates were relatively low?

And your source for the German fixation with inflation is...? (unless you're going by stereotyping)
I'm open to correction on the German question; especially if you can find the average wage for west Germany (which is indeed an economic powerhouse as you say) rather than East Germany which seems to have a strange ability to have double the averageWest German unemployment rate.

jimmmy wrote: »

No, I was stating how wages in countries can vary within that country....I am very well aware that east / west germany is totally different to this country.

Excellent; then you'll accept that the wage difference in a depressed region is nowhere near the same as that of ones outside Dublin.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The irony! It is generally right-wingers who complain about teachers being socialists

Once again... that was in jest... a total lack of knowing humour here I notice...

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And who should be the judges of performance? What criteria should they use? How might they ensure that assessments are objectively fair? More particularly, if a teacher is deemed to be under-performing, how might they prove that?

During the assessments.. it should also be the class that is under review..
i.e. a rowdy class of toe-rags would ensure that the teachers performance should be weighted as such..

And it should NOT be PS employees who perform the reviews... It should be put out to RFP...

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

Of course I know this, and I will go one further and say it is mostly the parent's fault and not the teacher's.. That part of the post was in jest...

Agreed there.

optocynic wrote: »

Teacher's are socilaists when they think they should be paid the same as highly qualifies and experienced engineers etc... If they were not socialists, they would feel physicaly ill when O'Connor speaks for them in public! That man is a total hypocrite..

Some teachers are almost certainly socialists, I doubt all of them are.

optocynic wrote: »

I think you are wrong there... for the simple reason that, a teacher may in fact be talented enough to grind out some great test scores in a hellhole.. and if so... they should be rewarded... and the rewards should be HUGE!

Agreed here; there are teachers who have the ability to do well in such areas and they should definetely be rewarded but it would be extremely unfair to expect them to compete properly with more affluent schools.
I think Obama planned to give additional cash to teachers who went to disadvantaged schools or something like that.

optocynic wrote: »

I always knew you were rational!... Kudos!
No hope of the unions acting like big-boys and accepting such a fair move though?

Depends really; unions are there to protect their members interests, it doesn't really surprise me that they oppose attempts to cut their members wages.
I'd say they are opposing the cuts to try and minimise their effects more than anything. Then again, I have absolutely zero contact with the teachers unions.

Lockstep

optocynic wrote: »

Once again... that was in jest... a total lack of knowing humour here I notice...

To be fair; it's hard to get tone across over the net.

optocynic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

To be fair; it's hard to get tone across over the net.

I could write in Pink!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
And add loads of annoying smilies...!!

Ohhh if only I could dot my 'i's with little hearts!!

jimmmy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm open to correction on the German question; especially if you can find the average wage for west Germany (which is indeed an economic powerhouse as you say) rather than East Germany which seems to have a strange ability to have double the averageWest German unemployment rate.

Excellent; then you'll accept that the wage difference in a depressed region is nowhere near the same as that of ones outside Dublin.

That was my point. I know east Germany in the period in question was generally not up to the speed / as developed as west Germany...hence I used the analogy of wage rates varying in Ireland too. However we are talking about the average public sector wage rates for the whole of Germany. The statistics show that in 2005 they were 3080.20 per month i.e. € 36962.40 per year. In Ireland the statistics from our own c.s.o. show our average public sector wage is 966 p.w.

The Germans may be good at football but when it comes to p.s. wages we look like ( so far anyway ) champions of the world.

murphaph

kickoutthejams wrote: »

They might know the rules, but is there anything stopping them?

Seems a bit strange to rely on their cense of civic duty etc.

They don't just rely on their sense of civic duty, which I would suggest is quite high in general in Germany, but also make it illegal to strike. A blue flu may be covered by the strike legislation-I don't know. I presume the sicknesses would all need to be certified or the civil servant in question would lose the day's pay at a minimum.

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

They don't just rely on their sense of civic duty, which I would suggest is quite high in general in Germany .

Sure is. I remember on occassions I was there often seeing bicycles unlocked in city centres etc. Germans generally done the right thing for their countries sake. Same with litter etc. I would imagine that those who go to be public servants there see themselves as public servants....not as people superior to the general public.

parsi

jimmmy wrote: »

Sure is. I remember on occassions I was there often seeing bicycles unlocked in city centres etc. Germans generally done the right thing for their countries sake. Same with litter etc. I would imagine that those who go to be public servants there see themselves as public servants....not as people superior to the general public.

Have you ever interacted with a German civil servant or indeed anybody with a position of authority in Germany

The word "beamter" is laden with many flavours and tinges.

jimmmy

parsi wrote: »

Have you ever interacted with a German civil servant or indeed anybody with a position of authority in Germany

yes. that answer your question ?

jimmmy

Interestingly, I heard Eddie Hobbs on the RTE radio one this afternoon refer to Irish public servants as the highest paid on "the planet", and said their average pay was 50k a year. He mentioned eurostats recent analysis of state sector earnings across the EC which found Irish public sector salaries 42 per cent higher than the EC average. Next time the unions start whinging about their pay ( if not looking for that infamous increase ), I think its safe enough to say that Irish public servants are indeed the highest paid in the world.
Lets sing all together now " They are the champppions, theyy are the champions.."):D

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

Interestingly, I heard Eddie Hobbs on the RTE radio one this ... He mentioned eurostats recent analysis of state sector earnings across the EC which found ... I think its safe enough to say that Irish public servants are indeed the highest paid in the world.

Did you check on Eurostat, just to be sure he was correct?

lmimmfn

jimmmy wrote: »

Interestingly, I heard Eddie Hobbs on the RTE radio one this afternoon refer to Irish public servants as the highest paid on "the planet", and said their average pay was 50k a year. He mentioned eurostats recent analysis of state sector earnings across the EC which found Irish public sector salaries 42 per cent higher than the EC average. Next time the unions start whinging about their pay ( if not looking for that infamous increase ), I think its safe enough to say that Irish public servants are indeed the highest paid in the world.
Lets sing all together now " They are the champppions, theyy are the champions.."):D

but in this recession they not only now have to have a form of contributary pension( via the HUGE levy lol ), but they also have huge mortgages and loans to pay off for their new cars, they might even have second mortgages to pay off.

Also what will poor primary teachers do in their effective 5 months off a year when the country is in such a state? poor chaps.

jimmmy

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Did you check on Eurostat, just to be sure he was correct?

I had read about the eurostat report in one of the broadsheets at the weekend - I think its pretty much common knowledge by now.;)

kincsem

halkar wrote: »

The 10 highest paid politicians in the world:

1. Lee Hsien Loong - Singapore
Salary in dollars - $2.47 million
Salary in local currency - S$3.76 million

2. Donald Tsang Yum-Kuen - Hong Kong

Salary in dollars - $516,000
Salary in local currency - HK$4 million

3. Barack Obama - United States
Salary in dollars - $400,000

4. Brian Cowen - Ireland
Salary in dollars - $341,000
Salary in local currency - €257,000

5. Nicolas Sarkozy - France
Salary in dollars - $318,000
Salary in local currency - €240,000

6. Angela Merkel - Germany
Salary in dollars - $303,000
Salary in local currency - €228,000

7. Gordon Brown - UK
Salary in dollars - $279,000
Salary in local currency - £194,250

8. Stephen Harper - Canada
Salary in dollars - $246,000
Salary in local currency - C$311,000

9. Taro Aso - Japan
Salary in dollars - $243,000
Salary in local currency - Y24 million

10. Kevin Rudd - Australia
Salary in dollars - $229,000
Salary in local currency - A$330,000

Link

nuff said

Yeah, but as Bertie corrrectly pointed out our Taoiseach does not have a big white house. :rolleyes:

Gill01

kickoutthejams wrote: »

How do realise how long it takes to become a judge right?
You need at least ten years experience as a solicitor or barrister (and remember that this is the bare minimum, you will need a lot more to stand a real chance of being appointed) and you need to be specially appointed by the government after advice from the Judicial Appointment Advisory Board (who choose potential judges from the pool of applicants), so you'll hardly be getting in if you're straight out of college.
15 years for a pension after the long wait/competition it takes to get the post doesn't seem to hefty to me.

Please remember in those years while they have been waiting to be appointed they have been working and being paid and could have contributed to a private pension based on their earnings during that time. Why should the state give them 25 free years (based on full pension entitlements due after 40 years service for average public servant).

sceptre

kincsem wrote: »

Yeah, but as Bertie corrrectly pointed out our Taoiseach does not have a big white house. :rolleyes:

Farmleigh (well, the steward's house at Farmleigh) was renovated in part to act as a Taoiseach's residence. Though Brian Cowen doesn't sleep there that much. Bertie Ahern chose not to sleep there at all. Key word in the sentence is of course "chose".

Oh btw, yes, i know you're being sarcastic. I'm helping. Sort of.:p

#15

lmimmfn wrote: »

Also what will poor primary teachers do in their effective 5 months off a year when the country is in such a state? poor chaps.

Probably relaxing, laughing at bitter folk.
And burning money too.

#15

optocynic wrote: »

During the assessments.. it should also be the class that is under review..
i.e. a rowdy class of toe-rags would ensure that the teachers performance should be weighted as such..

And it should NOT be PS employees who perform the reviews... It should be put out to RFP...

While I agree with you that there should be more ways to assess teachers, and it should be easier to re-train/sack underperforming or inadequate teachers, it would be wrong to use test scores as an analysis.

There are too many variables to give fair comparisons, e.g. socio-economic background, parental support, learning difficulties, behavioural problems, etc etc. This is also why the class should not be part of the assessment.

Teacher assessment should be kept fairly simple. An inspector will be able to know, on a judgement call, whether a teacher is up to standard or not. If they visit the school fairly regularly, and go through the teachers planning files, it will be pretty obvious if the tecaher is inadequate.

In any case, while I do support drastic reform of the public sector, my fear is that it will be a blanket cut, eg everyone takes a cut of 20%.
The only fair way of doing it is to impose graded cuts, with higher earners taking a larger % decrease, ie the lowest paid get hit the lowest.

givyjoe81

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And who should be the judges of performance? What criteria should they use? How might they ensure that assessments are objectively fair? More particularly, if a teacher is deemed to be under-performing, how might they prove that?

Stunningly simple, the inspector picks a teacher, and then compares his/her performance to other teachers in the same school teaching the exact same class (group of students). Should become fairly obvious quite quickly, if one/all/none of the teachers are good/bad/indifferent.

4leto

Is it relative, we may have the highest paid public servants in the world, but it's one of the most expensive places to live in the world. I wonder what proportion of disposable income our public servants have compared to other public servants in other countries.

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

I had read about the eurostat report in one of the broadsheets at the weekend - I think its pretty much common knowledge by now.;)

You mean you didn't verfy the story from a primary source? And why the coyness about which broadsheet your saw it in?

#15

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Stunningly simple, the inspector picks a teacher, and then compares his/her performance to other teachers in the same school teaching the exact same class (group of students). Should become fairly obvious quite quickly, if one/all/none of the teachers are good/bad/indifferent.

I wouldn't favour this at all. It creates an unnatural situation for the children.
If the teachers are seen teaching their own classes on a regular basis, an inspector will know whether or not the teacher is competent. It is quite easy for an experienced inspector to make the distinction between a bad teacher with an easy class, and a good teacher who has a difficult time with a bad class.

Lockstep

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Stunningly simple, the inspector picks a teacher, and then compares his/her performance to other teachers in the same school teaching the exact same class (group of students). Should become fairly obvious quite quickly, if one/all/none of the teachers are good/bad/indifferent.

So a teacher who is teaching...say applied maths will be comparable to the person teaching the kids history?

LookingFor

I'd love to see the distribution of salary across grades.

My sister is a CO, been there for 4 or 5 years now, and is barely taking home 400/week.

If there are further pay cuts they should skip the CO grade.