Is the Irish Public Service the highest paid in the world ?

jimmmy

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You mean you didn't verfy the story from a primary source? And why the coyness about which broadsheet your saw it in?

The eurostat report has been in all the broadsheets....certainly any one worth the name. Just because you may not like what it says does not mean you should not read it.
As for anecdotal evidence, did you see the two page feature in the Irish Independent last Saturday ( which also mentioned the Eurostat report by the way ), which interviewed half a dozen foreigners working ( or who had worked recently ) in the Irish public service, and which compared the wages they would get in their home continental countries for doing exactly the same work. There is another thread on this topic...suffice to say some would get paid only a thrid in his home country . another was half etc.

lmimmfn

LookingFor wrote: »

I'd love to see the distribution of salary across grades.

My sister is a CO, been there for 4 or 5 years now, and is barely taking home 400/week.

If there are further pay cuts they should skip the CO grade.

If they reduce the dole the can reduce CO also but i think the point is to make the band more conservative instead of having salaries ranging from 20k-330k

btw my wife is a CO also, ive no problem if she takes a small cut as long as the money is saved expotentially across the pay scale.

LookingFor

lmimmfn wrote: »

If they reduce the dole the can reduce CO also

Maybe this is just my selfish interests, with my sister and all, but I don't see why the two should be linked.

She's particularly bitter about this because she works in social welfare and she sees how much some people walk away with every week for doing nothing.

I really think it's only her pride that's keeping her in that job now.

givyjoe81

kickoutthejams wrote: »

So a teacher who is teaching...say applied maths will be comparable to the person teaching the kids history?

So how do you do it then?! You probably cant have a 100% picture of how good a teacher is, but if you are assessing things like the ability to control the class, (which was a major issue with some of my former teacher) then it really doesnt matter what subject your teaching. Adding such a measurement to results/grades etc of the same grade should give an accurate reflection, while also looking of course at preperation materials etc.

murphaph

LookingFor wrote: »

I'd love to see the distribution of salary across grades.

My sister is a CO, been there for 4 or 5 years now, and is barely taking home 400/week.

If there are further pay cuts they should skip the CO grade.

That's a net income of at least 21,000 a year. What's her gross salary?

What does she do for that? (no need to be specific about the department)

Is it such a bad salary for what she does?

There's no point in saying she's a CO and only makes x per week (after tax). It matters what she does for her money. If she is doing 'office work' then I suggest it's a decent salary.

Lockstep

givyjoe81 wrote: »

So how do you do it then?!

You're asking me how I would inspect teachers in a system you proposed?

Have you ever taught in kids?
Not as a qualified teacher obviously but even doing something like a homework club or teaching kids to read etc. It's usually fairly easy to see how decent a teacher is just by sitting in on the class.

Random inspections is the only way I can see that is possible.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

You probably cant have a 100% picture of how good a teacher is, but if you are assessing things like the ability to control the class, (which was a major issue with some of my former teacher) then it really doesnt matter what subject your teaching. Adding such a measurement to results/grades etc of the same grade should give an accurate reflection, while also looking of course at preperation materials etc.

Factoring in test results is utterly nonsensical. Honestly now; would you really consider it possible to compare results in something like applied maths or physics to something like religion or art. (given that you suggested comparing teachers of the same class who would obviously not be teaching kids the exact same subjects)
Comparisons in teaching is pretty damn difficult as teachers have such different styles which can differ but still be effective/ineffective. Random inspections is really the only feasible way I can see; factoring in tests/grades is ridiculous between schools (owing to differing factors affecting the kids) or in the same school (as you cannot compare like with like)
Adding such a measurement to results/grades make little sense.

givyjoe81

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You're asking me how I would inspect teachers in a system you proposed?

Have you ever taught in kids?
Not as a qualified teacher obviously but even doing something like a homework club or teaching kids to read etc. It's usually fairly easy to see how decent a teacher is just by sitting in on the class.

Random inspections is the only way I can see that is possible.

Factoring in test results is utterly nonsensical. Honestly now; would you really consider it possible to compare results in something like applied maths or physics to something like religion or art. (given that you suggested comparing teachers of the same class who would obviously not be teaching kids the exact same subjects)
Comparisons in teaching is pretty damn difficult as teachers have such different styles which can differ but still be effective/ineffective. Random inspections is really the only feasible way I can see; factoring in tests/grades is ridiculous between schools (owing to differing factors affecting the kids) or in the same school (as you cannot compare like with like)
Adding such a measurement to results/grades make little sense.

First of all, get the hell down of your high horse will you. Your 'answer' is random inspections? Care to elaborate on what on earth that would entail? Just randomly coming in for the crack and having a nose around, what would the inspector do. I dont need to teach/or have taught to have reasonably good suggestions for evaluating teachers, but im not surpirsed by your attitude.

How does factoring in grades make little sense?! Are you seriously telling me that the grades kids achieve doesnt reflect at all on their teacher?!

It doesnt matter what the subject is, quite simply AGAIN, the same class is used and the results from each subject are assessed against each other, if there are anomolies, they will show up. As with everything there is a tendency towards average, so if the results overall in one subject are far lower than other subjects taken by the kids then there is a problem, which obviously the teacher bares some, or a large responsibility for. Im not saying measure results accross schools to compare teachers, but if one class is doing really poor or below the average in a particular subject then something is clearly a miss.

You are clearly missing the point, it quite obviously is, and should be possible to factor in grades, for god's sake our whole system is set up that results are the be all and end all, i.e. Leaving Cert point system, so why on god's earth, shouldn't grades be PART of any teachers evaluation. I can accept that not a hundred per cent of evaluation should be placed on it, but it most certainly should not be overlooked. I agree that in class observation is valuabe too but that can seriously overlook the deficiencies of a poor teacher.

I can think of many examples, but my own Irish teacher was simply apalling. However if you randomly assessed her in class, you could be fooled into thinking she was actually quite good. She was extremely articulate, having an obvious excellent command of the language, was able to control the class etc. However if you assessed her every day you would see an alarming emerging pattern. Using the same techniques over and over again which simply didnt work, being neither willing or able to see this, which ultimately resulted in TWO people taking higher level Irish in my leaving cert year, these techniques playing a huge part in the cumulative effect of her poor teaching. Hence our results were crap, and results of students in Irish, in our school, were consistenly crap.

I just thought i might clariy what i mean by comparing classes. I only mean the exact same students, lets say a group of fourth years. So you would be assessing all the teachers of that group of students. Claiming that is nonsensical is utter bullsh1t.

On a side note, i see in your in Leuven, im nearly reluctant to mention i was there recently on a college trip. Are you part of a certain Irish institute there by any chance?!

#15

Givyjoe, are you talking about Primary or Secondary schools?

givyjoe81

#15 wrote: »

Givyjoe, are you talking about Primary or Secondary schools?

Secondary, while there are 'grades' to work from at the end of each year (from what i can remember!), the relatively objective Junior and Leaving Cert results should be a decent marker of performance.

All im trying to say is, that a simple 'random' evaluation on its own is woefully inadequate. As i alluded to above, while things may appear hunky dory in the classroom, a look at the grades may show a different picture. Conversely while one teachers performance may appear to be poor on the face of results, they may be doing a stand up job, with low grades attributed to another factor. This i believe makes a case for both. It may be complex or difficult, but that is hardly a reason to ignore it, and while I may not have the answers it does not mean they dont exist.

Lockstep

givyjoe81 wrote: »

First of all, get the hell down of your high horse will you.

Heh, irony.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

'answer' is random inspections? Care to elaborate on what on earth that would entail? Just randomly coming in for the crack and having a nose around, what would the inspector do.

What does it sound like?
Inspectors randomly turning up to the class, sitting in, checking the teacher's preparation and so on.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I dont need to teach/or have taught to have reasonably good suggestions for evaluating teachers, but im not surprised by your attitude.

You could give it a try; kids are pretty damn diverse and it's impossible to ensure a system which takes this into account. The idea of comparing the same class of kids based on their performance in maths to their performance in CSPE is strange.
Why are you not surprised by my attitude so?

givyjoe81 wrote: »

How does factoring in grades make little sense?! Are you seriously telling me that the grades kids achieve doesnt reflect at all on their teacher?!

Not really; teaching a bunch of kids who's parents make sure they do their homework, eat well, get grinds etc is a far cry from teaching the opposite.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

It doesnt matter what the subject is, quite simply AGAIN, the same class is used and the results from each subject are assessed against each other, if there are anomolies, they will show up. As with everything there is a tendency towards average, so if the results overall in one subject are far lower than other subjects taken by the kids then there is a problem, which obviously the teacher bares some, or a large responsibility for. Im not saying measure results accross schools to compare teachers, but if one class is doing really poor or below the average in a particular subject then something is clearly a miss.

What kind of system is that? My secondary class was brilliant at biology and history but crap at French, hardly fair for the teachers. Kids have strengths and weaknesses which can be amplified in a class.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

You are clearly missing the point, it quite obviously is, and should be possible to factor in grades, for god's sake our whole system is set up that results are the be all and end all, i.e. Leaving Cert point system, so why on god's earth, shouldn't grades be PART of any teachers evaluation. I can accept that not a hundred per cent of evaluation should be placed on it, but it most certainly should not be overlooked. I agree that in class observation is valuabe too but that can seriously overlook the deficiencies of a poor teacher.

Indeed and that's a problem with the system; the points race being so important that kids go for what will get them high grades rather than more economically useful subjects like maths or sciences. You can have a great teacher but kids with little interest in the subject.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I can think of many examples, but my own Irish teacher was simply apalling. However if you randomly assessed her in class, you could be fooled into thinking she was actually quite good. She was extremely articulate, having an obvious excellent command of the language, was able to control the class etc. However if you assessed her every day you would see an alarming emerging pattern. Using the same techniques over and over again which simply didnt work, being neither willing or able to see this, which ultimately resulted in TWO people taking higher level Irish in my leaving cert year, these techniques playing a huge part in the cumulative effect of her poor teaching. Hence our results were crap, and results of students in Irish, in our school, were consistenly crap.

I'm curious; how did her methods not work then? Would be strange for them to look grand but not add up over time.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I just thought i might clariy what i mean by comparing classes. I only mean the exact same students, lets say a group of fourth years. So you would be assessing all the teachers of that group of students.

In that case, I pity the teacher who has to teach them applied subjects then, when they'll be compared against the teachers in Home-Ec or religion based on grades.

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Claiming that is nonsensical is utter bullsh1t.

Thinking that kids can be strong in one subject but weak in another is bull****?

givyjoe81 wrote: »

On a side note, i see in your in Leuven, im nearly reluctant to mention i was there recently on a college trip. Are you part of a certain Irish institute there by any chance?!

No, the closest contact I have with that certain Irish institute is serving their members in a nearby bar.

givyjoe81

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Heh, irony.

What does it sound like?
Inspectors randomly turning up to the class, sitting in, checking the teacher's preparation and so on.



You could give it a try; kids are pretty damn diverse and it's impossible to ensure a system which takes this into account. The idea of comparing the same class of kids based on their performance in maths to their performance in CSPE is strange.
Why are you not surprised by my attitude so?



Not really; teaching a bunch of kids who's parents make sure they do their homework, eat well, get grinds etc is a far cry from teaching the opposite.



What kind of system is that? My secondary class was brilliant at biology and history but crap at French, hardly fair for the teachers. Kids have strengths and weaknesses which can be amplified in a class.


Indeed and that's a problem with the system; the points race being so important that kids go for what will get them high grades rather than more economically useful subjects like maths or sciences. You can have a great teacher but kids with little interest in the subject.



I'm curious; how did her methods not work then? Would be strange for them to look grand but not add up over time.




In that case, I pity the teacher who has to teach them applied subjects then, when they'll be compared against the teachers in Home-Ec or religion based on grades.


Thinking that kids can be strong in one subject but weak in another is bull****?



No, the closest contact I have with that certain Irish institute is serving their members in a nearby bar.

I give up, but implying that the evaluation of teachers should be removed from the academic performance of their students is aboslutely crazy.

cyclopath2001

jimmmy wrote: »

The eurostat report has been in all the broadsheets....certainly any one worth the name. Just because you may not like what it says does not mean you should not read it.

I would but you're unable to provide a link to it.

jimmmy wrote: »

As for anecdotal evidence, did you see the two page feature in the Irish Independent last Saturday

I only read the 'Indo' when I want to read false stories about former TDs in car crashes accompanied by under age hookers.

Lockstep

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I give up, but implying that the evaluation of teachers should be removed from the academic performance of their students is aboslutely crazy.

Indeed; I'd see your ideas as equally crazy as I don't think it's possible to accurately compare teachers to one another, based on test results.
I'd also be worried about competitiveness and backbiting among the teachers, while cooperation would be in the student's interests.
As well as teaching becoming even more focussed on the test; we have enough of that with the LC.

daithicarr

LookingFor wrote: »

Maybe this is just my selfish interests, with my sister and all, but I don't see why the two should be linked.

She's particularly bitter about this because she works in social welfare and she sees how much some people walk away with every week for doing nothing.

I really think it's only her pride that's keeping her in that job now.

For doing nothing ??? as if we have all some how decided to just quit work and so sweet f**kall.

being some one whos lost my job and is looking for work, the moneys not for doing nothing, its to help me and the hundreds of thousdands of others survive.
As for doing nothing, the people in the social welfare office get paid well for the lack of work they do, they make you ring places, dont answer the phone for DAYS then shout down the phone they are too busy to answer it so stop rining and are generally rude and obnoxious to you, treating you as some scum who is trying to defraud the system. me and the people like me are nothing to them.

so your sister should count her self lucky that she has a totaly secure job and maybe have some consideration with the people who she serves

jimmmy

daithicarr wrote: »

For doing nothing ??? as if we have all some how decided to just quit work and so sweet f**kall.

being some one whos lost my job and is looking for work, the moneys not for doing nothing, its to help me and the hundreds of thousdands of others survive.
As for doing nothing, the people in the social welfare office get paid well for the lack of work they do, they make you ring places, dont answer the phone for DAYS then shout down the phone they are too busy to answer it so stop rining and are generally rude and obnoxious to you, treating you as some scum who is trying to defraud the system. me and the people like me are nothing to them.

so your sister should count her self lucky that she has a totaly secure job and maybe have some consideration with the people who she serves

I hope you get work soon. There are good + bad people everywhere.

bridgitt

Anyone know if there is indeed a country in the world with a higher paid public service ? If there was one someone would have found it by now ?

P. Breathnach

bridgitt wrote: »

Anyone know if there is indeed a country in the world with a higher paid public service ? If there was one someone would have found it by now ?

New poster, I see. Are you deputising for the absent jimmmy?

Muinteoireamonn

Im sorry, Im a Secondary School Teacher and I cannot wait for the mid-term break. Im sorry if that upsets people but i think its deserved, and i work damn hard for the break. in at half seven coming out some days at six or seven and i get paid 33000 a year. Not 90000 a year. I also dont spend my summers burning money, I work all summer too, the thoughts of doing nothing for three months would drive me mad.

If you give out so much about our holidays go back and do a BA (yeah the arts degree, that was 'a waste of time') and pay for a H dip, its about 7000 but you will easily make it back with your 90000 a year salary. I chose this profession because i love it, its a very rewarding job. I did not do a Business degree or an engineering degree with the purpose of making loads of money, and if you did fair play.

And its amazing how many education experts are on boards, im sorry but some people havent a clue what they are on about. Teaching and Learning is a complicated process and its outcomes depend on many factors, these accross the board standard inspections are ridiculous.

we are all in this recession in some way, but dont blame teachers just because you personally had a bad experience. no way im i going to feel guilty about a job i have that is very rewarding, and its what i chose to do in college. rant over...

SLUSK

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I agree; it's a chicken-and-egg scenario, and I thought it VERY ironic that Cowen mentioned earlier in the year that we should expect a "10% drop in standard of living".

I remember thinking that if we dropped EVERYTHING by 10% - wages, bills, mortgages, etc - then no-one would be actually worse off, in real terms; I also remember wondering why "inflation" was seen as a good thing, or a sign that an economy was "growing".

What I'm saying is, though, that it's a factor, in that you can't compare wages without comparing that.

Someone could well be on a minimum wage of the fabled €1.86 in another country and still be better off than we are here.

So you're right about what "might" happen; but as it stands we need to compare like with like. That applies to public and private sector.

But yeah, drag the costs and wages down simultaneously (e.g. halve EVERYTHING at the same time) and we'd be a lot more competitive and no-one would be much worse off (apart from imports and foreign hols).

According to my calculations you are worse of if your wage falls 10% and all your costs fall 10%. If you have a net pay of 1500 and save 500 per month and your wage and all your costs go down 10% your net savings will drop by €50 per month(1350-900 = 450)

P. Breathnach

SLUSK wrote: »

According to my calculations you are worse of if your wage falls 10% and all your costs fall 10%. If you have a net pay of 1500 and save 500 per month and your wage and all your costs go down 10% your net savings will drop by €50 per month(1350-900 = 450)

Not the whole story: the effective value of your savings (purchasing power) is higher than before.

jimmmy

Muinteoireamonn wrote: »

Im sorry, Im a Secondary School Teacher and I cannot wait for the mid-term break. Im sorry if that upsets people but i think its deserved, and i work damn hard for the break. in at half seven coming out some days at six or seven and i get paid 33000 a year. Not 90000 a year. I also dont spend my summers burning money, I work all summer too, the thoughts of doing nothing for three months would drive me mad.

Nobody said all teachers are on a minimum of 90,000 a year, or start at 90,000 a year. I know there are some teachers who work hard. However, now you are on your mid term break, perhaps you could do a bit of research if you like, on behalf of your fellow public servants. Nobody has been able to find a country in the world with a higher average public sector wage than Ireland. Check with our CSO ( Central Statics Office - they will give you the exact figure, but is about fifty grand ). Eurostat shows our public sector wage as 40% above EC average. If you are away on holidays this mid-term break ( like many other teachers I know ) then you may not have time to do this. Others, inc some public servants, have spent time seaching for a country with a higher paid public service, all without success. Even the Guinness book of records have been notified, so if there are any contenders for the records or anyone has any proof please come forward. Its proving to be difficult to get statistics from a few of the African countries

Nodin

jimmmy wrote: »

. I know there are some teachers who work hard. However, (...........)

But of course you do, Jimmy.

meditraitor

Yes is the answer to the OP,

Ireland does have the highest paid civil/public service in the world.......


If you want to deny it then show me a country with higher paid civil/public servants?

NewDubliner

meditraitor wrote: »

If you want to deny it then show me a country with higher paid civil/public servants?

Ah, the auld 'jimmmy' gambit.

Irish workers are the highest paid on the planet.

dresden8

meditraitor wrote: »

Yes is the answer to the OP,

Ireland does have the highest paid civil/public service in the world.......


If you want to deny it then show me a country with higher paid civil/public servants?

That's not how it works.

If you post a "fact" you must be able to back it up, forum rules.

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

Ah, the auld 'jimmmy' gambit.

Irish workers are the highest paid on the planet.

In case anybody's interested

Average Industrial earnings Ireland 2006 €575.21

Source

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=QIJA.asp&TableName=Industrial+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_QI


Average Industrial earning UK 2006 £440.10 / .90775^ = €484.83

Source

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_labour/ASHE_2006_Method07/2006_industry.pdf
(Table 4.1)

^http://www.centralbank.ie/

Proof positive that the private sector is overpaid to the tune of 20.5% and can afford to pay a lot more taxes.

See jimmmy, that's how you do it. You research facts and information sources to back up your points before posting. And if you don't post them you at least have the common decency to post them when asked.

Only then can you make spurious assumptions based on those facts.;)

dresden8

What, no takers?

How insecure is the private sector.

Do you agree you're 20% overpaid?

bacon bites

irish_bob wrote: »

a regular citizen has just as much chance of being attacked as a guard , a nurse has more chance of being assaulted , i have witnessed cenile old men raise walking sticks to young fresh faced nurses , luckily , most nurses come from good hardy stock , often rural farming stock

really?! and you know this how?? am a garda now for nearly 5 years and can say that this is a totally ridiculous statement. i have been attacked on duty more than i care to remember in that short period of time in comparison to never before that. I'm not going to badger on about it, you probably wouldn't believe me anyway, but if you're going to comment on something please have a clue as to what you're on about. Rant over!

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

Irish workers are the highest paid on the planet.

It was not me who used that term, it was Eddie Hobbs ( who has done a bit of research in his time and knows a bit about economics ) who said those exact words, on RTE. I have given the statistics from www.cso.ie on our public sector pay.... and neither I or anyone else - not even public service posters or union members, in whose interest it would be - have been able to find another country in the world with a higher average public sector pay. The links to statistics offices in other countries are found in this very thread. As I said "Even the Guinness book of records have been notified, so if there are any contenders for the records or anyone has any proof please come forward. Its proving to be difficult to get statistics from a few of the African countries "

Mal-Adjusted

irish_bob wrote: »

a regular citizen has just as much chance of being attacked as a guard , a nurse has more chance of being assaulted , i have witnessed cenile old men raise walking sticks to young fresh faced nurses , luckily , most nurses come from good hardy stock , often rural farming stock

:rolleyes:

a regular citizen doesn't have to try to take down and apprehend the attacker though, a guard does.