Just 55pc of mothers breastfeed newborns

Dudess

"Working class background" as a negative - the second time on this thread.

Agonist

Dudess wrote: »

"Working class background" as a negative - the second time on this thread.

If you consider that bottle feeding is not ideal, and that coming from a working class background makes bottle feeding more likely then in that respect the working class thing is a negative. In the same way as having tender nipples is a negative, i.e. something that makes it more difficult in general but can be overcome.

In many other ways being working class is not a negative. When class causes drawbacks is there a good reason why we can't mention it?? Also, are we allowed to mention class when it's in a positive light?

MmmmmCheese

Agonist wrote: »

This thread is so strange!
There's one group of people saying that bottle feeding isn't accepted, that mothers get hassled and abused when they pull out a bottle.
The other side is saying that there isn't enough support and that people give breastfeeding mothers a hard time in public.

I don't know where to begin so I'll keep it short.

Breast is best. Yes, it's best for the baby and best for the mother. Which means, (and you never hear this said) that formula is worst. So, not just an equally good option. It's bad.

Breastfeeding is difficult to establish. Remember the first time you had sex? Blood, pain and embarrassment? Are you glad you persevered?

Which brings me to... The advice mothers get in hospital is horrible. Nurses tugging women's nipples, telling them that they are doing it wrong, making the mother feel deformed with their "inverted nipples" and failure to produce enough milk. Women need to talk to other women who have breastfed successfully, and the lucky ones can ask their own mothers. Otherwise, ask 99% of women in Scandinavia.

It's a woman's chioce how she wants to feed her child, just as it's her choice to get good nutrition while she's pregnant, to cut down on cigarettes and alcohol. Why is it not permitted to say that one choice is bad and the other is good? Or, one choice is wrong and the other right.

Also, "I was bottle fed and I'm fine" doesn't cut any ice. The plural of anecdote is not data. "The Christian Brother's battered me black and blue and it didn't do me any harm".

I'm trying not to be annoyed by all this but I'll give one example. It infuriates me when there's a baby beside me on an aeroplane wailing its little heart out and the Dad is jiggling it on his knee. How about if the baby was skin to skin with its mother, surrounded by her warmth and scent, hearing the murmur of her voice, and being fed nectar that is pure and uncomplicated. Every single need being met, heartbeat being regulated, the bond growing stronger, plus the sucking pops the baby's ears and takes the pain away.

When I see a young baby being bottle fed I'm not outraged, I feel pity for the mother who for reasons of poor education, lack of support, working class background or physical problems is not able to do the best for her child. And I'm sorry for the baby who is missing out on one of the few perfect experiences we can have in life.

What a fcuking ignorant and patronising post. Just because a woman doesn't breastfeed her child doesn't mean she has a poor education or has physical problems. How unbelievably ignorant of you. What has any of these things got to do with whether a woman breastfeeds her child or not? It should be the mothers own choice and she should not be looked down upon by people like you.

Oh i was bottlefed and i am as mentally and emotionally stable as anyone else.

Agonist

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

What a fcuking ignorant and patronising post. Just because a woman doesn't breastfeed her child doesn't mean she has a poor education or has physical problems. How unbelievably ignorant of you. What has any of these things got to do with whether a woman breastfeeds her child or not?

Eh, that would be everything?

It should be the mothers own choice and she should not be looked down upon by people like you.

Oh i was bottlefed and i am as mentally and emotionally stable as anyone else.

I don't doubt it. The statistics are drawn from huge populations. One individual person proves nothing either way.

You won't find a pro breastfeeding person as full of bluff and bother as these people expressing their niggling doubt, guilt and regret with outraged anger.

(Already been accused of being patronising - may as well live up to it)

Agonist

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

It should be the mothers own choice and she should not be looked down upon by people like you.

It is the mother's own choice. I'm just wondering what the reasons for making that choice are.

As for "looking down at", it's not about making judgement calls, it's about working out why so many women don't even attempt to breastfeed despite the wealth of evidence that it's best for mother and baby.

emmiou

Three stories from one thread over on rollercoaster demonstrating the lack of support for breastfeeding in public...

"A man texted The Ray Darcy Show about half an hour ago giving out about how he was in a cafe in Ballina and was about to bite into his strawberry cake when he spotted a woman at the next table breastfeeding. He thinks it's disgusting and she should have gone to her car to do that sort of thing."

"When my own dd was 6 wks old, while bringing her for her 6wk check-up at my doctors (which is also a women's clinic) I had a run in with the receptionist who had 'told' me that I could not bf my baby in the waiting room as it may offend people and that I would have to go into the 'toilet' with my two yr old ds in tow and feed her there."

"I just want to let everyone know about the awful experience I had today. I'm a first time mum to 7 week old baby girl and just finding my feet with the breast-feeding, esp in public. I was out for lunch today with my in-laws in a well known public 'House' in Beaumont, Dublin 9 and when i started to discreetly breast feed the baby, i was asked to leave by the manager because "it wasn't fair on the other customers having their lunch" and that there was a room for 'that type of thing'. I was so shocked that I just instinctively got up and left the premises with both my infant and myself in tears. I hadn't ever considered that what i was doing would be offensive to others and was made to feel that I was doing something wrong and dirty. I spent the entire afternoon in tears and feel that my confidence about feeding in public has nose dived. My husband later confronted the man and was told to get off the premises and that he 'should be ashamed of himself'. I do not want to let this lie. I would love to highlight this issue and in particular this establishment. My mother-in-law came up with the great idea of organising a mass breast feeding session in the venue that would attract, if possible, media attention. I would love people to suggest how I could organise such an event and if people reading this would in fact be interested in taking part. I am not usually a confrontational person but I feel that I need to take a stance on this occasion or else I'll regret it. "

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/boards/mc.asp?ID=230839&G=31&forumdb=5

Bottle_of_Smoke

emmiou wrote: »

Three stories from one thread over on rollercoaster demonstrating the lack of support for breastfeeding in public...

"A man texted The Ray Darcy Show about half an hour ago giving out about how he was in a cafe in Ballina and was about to bite into his strawberry cake when he spotted a woman at the next table breastfeeding. He thinks it's disgusting and she should have gone to her car to do that sort of thing."

"When my own dd was 6 wks old, while bringing her for her 6wk check-up at my doctors (which is also a women's clinic) I had a run in with the receptionist who had 'told' me that I could not bf my baby in the waiting room as it may offend people and that I would have to go into the 'toilet' with my two yr old ds in tow and feed her there."

"I just want to let everyone know about the awful experience I had today. I'm a first time mum to 7 week old baby girl and just finding my feet with the breast-feeding, esp in public. I was out for lunch today with my in-laws in a well known public 'House' in Beaumont, Dublin 9 and when i started to discreetly breast feed the baby, i was asked to leave by the manager because "it wasn't fair on the other customers having their lunch" and that there was a room for 'that type of thing'. I was so shocked that I just instinctively got up and left the premises with both my infant and myself in tears. I hadn't ever considered that what i was doing would be offensive to others and was made to feel that I was doing something wrong and dirty. I spent the entire afternoon in tears and feel that my confidence about feeding in public has nose dived. My husband later confronted the man and was told to get off the premises and that he 'should be ashamed of himself'. I do not want to let this lie. I would love to highlight this issue and in particular this establishment. My mother-in-law came up with the great idea of organising a mass breast feeding session in the venue that would attract, if possible, media attention. I would love people to suggest how I could organise such an event and if people reading this would in fact be interested in taking part. I am not usually a confrontational person but I feel that I need to take a stance on this occasion or else I'll regret it. "

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/boards/mc.asp?ID=230839&G=31&forumdb=5

That's a disgrace. Anyone who disturbs a woman feeding her baby in public should have their head examined.

laura l

Agonist wrote: »

The advice mothers get in hospital is horrible. Nurses tugging women's nipples, telling them that they are doing it wrong, making the mother feel deformed with their "inverted nipples" and failure to produce enough milk.

i was given excellent advice by the midwives after i had my baby. i was never told i was "doing it wrong" when i asked for advice about BFing. i found them extremely supportive and i was shown different methods to see which suited best which i found very helpful, certainly not "horrible"!

Agonist wrote: »

When I see a young baby being bottle fed I'm not outraged, I feel pity for the mother who for reasons of poor education, lack of support, working class background or physical problems is not able to do the best for her child. And I'm sorry for the baby who is missing out on one of the few perfect experiences we can have in life.

poorly educated? working class backgrounds? physical problems? i know plenty of women who are highly educated, have read up on all the baby books and gone to all the antenatal classes, who are not from working class backgrounds, without physical problems who have not exclusively breastfed their children.
also, i'm sure there are plenty of women out there who despite "reasons of poor education", who come from working class backgrounds and do breastfeed their babies.

i have to say i take issue with your argument that a mother who does not breastfeed "is not able to do the best for her child".:mad:i'm sure there are plenty of mothers out there who would beg to differ.

Dudess

Agonist wrote: »

If you consider that bottle feeding is not ideal, and that coming from a working class background makes bottle feeding more likely then in that respect the working class thing is a negative. In the same way as having tender nipples is a negative, i.e. something that makes it more difficult in general but can be overcome.

In many other ways being working class is not a negative. When class causes drawbacks is there a good reason why we can't mention it?? Also, are we allowed to mention class when it's in a positive light?

"Working class" - it's a pretty broad term.

emmiou wrote: »

he was in a cafe in Ballina and was about to bite into his strawberry cake when he spotted a woman at the next table breastfeeding. He thinks it's disgusting

:pac:

"I just want to let everyone know about the awful experience I had today. I'm a first time mum to 7 week old baby girl and just finding my feet with the breast-feeding, esp in public. I was out for lunch today with my in-laws in a well known public 'House' in Beaumont, Dublin 9 and when i started to discreetly breast feed the baby, i was asked to leave by the manager because "it wasn't fair on the other customers having their lunch" and that there was a room for 'that type of thing'. I was so shocked that I just instinctively got up and left the premises with both my infant and myself in tears. I hadn't ever considered that what i was doing would be offensive to others and was made to feel that I was doing something wrong and dirty. I spent the entire afternoon in tears and feel that my confidence about feeding in public has nose dived. My husband later confronted the man and was told to get off the premises and that he 'should be ashamed of himself'.

In a nutshell: bewbs should only be sexy.

grenache

Forgive me here, i am only male, so i may have no business in this thread. I do feel sorry for the woman who was asked to leave the restaurant while breastfeeding her child. It was obviously dealt with in an inappropriate manner by the restaurant owner. I can however see how it would be discomforting for some customers to see breastfeeding in public. Yet if i was in charge there, i would have let it go and only approached the woman if a customer had complained. Even then i would have offered her a sideroom in which to feed her child. Ordering someone to leave a premises for 'breastfeeding a child' is way OTT.

magma69

It is absolutely crazy. We humans need to get over ourselves. We are mammals like many others and all the fake baby milk in the world will never change that. There isn't one reasonable argument against it. :rolleyes:

Dudess

grenache wrote: »

Forgive me here, i am only male, so i may have no business in this thread.

Oh come on...

I do feel sorry for the woman who was asked to leave the restaurant while breastfeeding her child. It was obviously dealt with in an inappropriate manner by the restaurant owner. I can however see how it would be discomforting for some customers to see breastfeeding in public. Yet if i was in charge there, i would have let it go and only approached the woman if a customer had complained.

I don't see what's upsetting about it though - other than the thoughts going through the customer's heads, as opposed to the act itself. Breastfeeding mothers don't make a point of putting them on display, they cover them up as best they can, and the customers don't have to look.

grenache

Dudess wrote: »

Oh come on...

I don't see what's upsetting about it though - other than the thoughts going through the customer's heads, as opposed to the act itself. Breastfeeding mothers don't make a point of putting them on display, they cover them up as best they can, and the customers don't have to look.

I know, and i wouldn't have a problem with it myself, but you know how icky some folk can be! Some are more easily offended than they should be.

The Sweeper

I'd love to know what all of the preaching potential fathers-to-be intend to do to help out the breastfeeding mother of their child as she spends around a half an hour at each of her eight to 12 sittings per day that occur on average every 90 minutes to three hours, breastfeeding their child for the first month of its life.

Shall he, perhaps, cook a meal? Do some laundry? Learn where the vaccum cleaner is kept? Iron something, perchance? Or shall he be irritated by the baby's crying, wonder why his partner appears disinterested in him, lament the mess the house is in and then take his disenfranchised ego to the pub where at least his mates will celebrate his virility?

grenache

The Sweeper wrote: »

I'd love to know what all of the preaching potential fathers-to-be intend to do to help out the breastfeeding mother of their child as she spends around a half an hour at each of her eight to 12 sittings per day that occur on average every 90 minutes to three hours, breastfeeding their child for the first month of its life.

Shall he, perhaps, cook a meal? Do some laundry? Learn where the vaccum cleaner is kept? Iron something, perchance? Or shall he be irritated by the baby's crying, wonder why his partner appears disinterested in him, lament the mess the house is in and then take his disenfranchised ego to the pub where at least his mates will celebrate his virility?

There's more to life than male stereotyping you know. Some of us can actually cook, and even work the hoover!

ecom

The Sweeper wrote: »

I'd love to know what all of the preaching potential fathers-to-be intend to do to help out the breastfeeding mother of their child as she spends around a half an hour at each of her eight to 12 sittings per day that occur on average every 90 minutes to three hours, breastfeeding their child for the first month of its life.

Shall he, perhaps, cook a meal? Do some laundry? Learn where the vaccum cleaner is kept? Iron something, perchance? Or shall he be irritated by the baby's crying, wonder why his partner appears disinterested in him, lament the mess the house is in and then take his disenfranchised ego to the pub where at least his mates will celebrate his virility?

ah yes, dont you just love it when you are being stereotyped!
I was extremely suppoprtive of my wife breastfeeding. she didnt spend all the time above breastfeeding as you pointed out. After the first few days it was once every couple of hours, however yes I did cook, as always, did do laundry, as always, did clean the house, as always, love it when baby makes any sounds, including crying and dont go down to the pub at the drop of a hat. In fact I've been once in the 4 months since our baby was born.

If anything I feel a little left out at not being able to feed our baby, though I have given her the odd bottle feed or two.

Less of the stereotyping you!!

emmiou

grenache wrote: »

Forgive me here, i am only male, so i may have no business in this thread. I do feel sorry for the woman who was asked to leave the restaurant while breastfeeding her child. It was obviously dealt with in an inappropriate manner by the restaurant owner. I can however see how it would be discomforting for some customers to see breastfeeding in public. Yet if i was in charge there, i would have let it go and only approached the woman if a customer had complained. Even then i would have offered her a sideroom in which to feed her child. Ordering someone to leave a premises for 'breastfeeding a child' is way OTT.

But asking her to stop breastfeeding was an illegal act. The management in the establishment are required to put the needs of the baby first and the person making the complaint can be asked to leave if needed, it is considered harassment.

Irish Law relating to breastfeeding in public:

The Equal Status Act (2000) protects people from discrimination and harassment (including sexual harassment) in the use of and access to a wide range of services including shops and restaurants. Protection for mums breastfeeding in public is provided under two of the nine discriminatory grounds covered by the Act –

The Gender and Family Status grounds.
This Act helps mums to breastfeed comfortably in public places by protecting them from being discriminated against or harassed because they are breastfeeding. (Discrimination is less favourable treatment, for example, asking someone to leave a premises because they are breastfeeding.)

The Intoxicating Liquor Act (2003) - Section 19 protects against discrimination occurring in a public house and provides access to the District Court for redress. Harassment is unwanted conduct (of a sexual nature in the case of sexual harassment) related to any of the discriminatory grounds covered by the Equal Status Act which has the purpose or effect of violating a person's dignity and creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for the person, in this case a breastfeeding mother.

Side rooms that are available for breastfeeding are often also used for baby changing and have huge bins overflowing with dirty nappies, the bins are left unchanged for the day, and they tend not to be very pleasant places - I doubt you would choose to eat your lunch in such a room?

emmiou

Manager from the mentioned pub defending his actions and the breastfeeding mother on Liveline today - maybe his attitude and that of the couple of crazy women callers on the show are the reason for the low figure of 55pc.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-liveline-Monday.smil

It starts about 20 minutes into the show. The prevailing attitude seems to be that breastfeeding is fine as long as you go sit on your own, cloistered away from normal society! Just what a new mother, possibly already feeling isolated by being on maternity leave and the difficulties of getting out and about with a new baby needs to hear.

we'llallhavetea_old

emmiou wrote: »

Manager from the mentioned pub defending his actions and the breastfeeding mother on Liveline today - maybe his attitude and that of the couple of crazy women callers on the show are the reason for the low figure of 55pc.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-liveline-Monday.smil

It starts about 20 minutes into the show. The prevailing attitude seems to be that breastfeeding is fine as long as you go sit on your own, cloistered away from normal society! Just what a new mother, possibly already feeling isolated by being on maternity leave and the difficulties of getting out and about with a new baby needs to hear.

i don't really think that this was a case of national hysteria, the man is obviously of an older generation, i'm sure a good bollocking onsite would have made him wary of doing this again.

Warfi

I think most women would breastfeed if they could. However it's not the easiest job in the world to look after a baby. I can imagine new mothers would be keen to try breast feeding, but what with coming to terms with looking after the baby, trying to adjust, tyring to do everything right, sometimes there's so much stress on a new mother that breast feeding just doesn't happen. And when a new mother is trying her best to breast feed, and the nurses and doctors (and society in general, going by this thread) are on at her to breast feed, can you imagine how much of a failure you would feel if it just wasn't working out? Not to mention the added stress on top of looking after a new born.

I think the only people who have any right to tell a woman to breast feed are those who are trained to do so. And even at that, a woman's stress levels should be taken into account if she's finding it difficult to breast feed. I really can't imagine that a stressed mother would be too healthy for a baby either.

laura l

The Sweeper wrote: »

I'd love to know what all of the preaching potential fathers-to-be intend to do to help out the breastfeeding mother of their child as she spends around a half an hour at each of her eight to 12 sittings per day that occur on average every 90 minutes to three hours, breastfeeding their child for the first month of its life.

Shall he, perhaps, cook a meal? Do some laundry? Learn where the vaccum cleaner is kept? Iron something, perchance? Or shall he be irritated by the baby's crying, wonder why his partner appears disinterested in him, lament the mess the house is in and then take his disenfranchised ego to the pub where at least his mates will celebrate his virility?

i agree with this time frame definitely..every 3 hours approx, 15-20 mins each breast for the first month or so, which works out at at least 8 feeds a day. it does become slightly less frequent over time, depends whether or not you choose to feed on demand or try to get your baby into a set routine.

in antenatal classes i was told if you choose to breastfeed you feed the baby and your other half feeds you..i do think this was good advice and a very good way of sharing the workload!

laura l

Warfi wrote: »

I think most women would breastfeed if they could. However it's not the easiest job in the world to look after a baby. I can imagine new mothers would be keen to try breast feeding, but what with coming to terms with looking after the baby, trying to adjust, tyring to do everything right, sometimes there's so much stress on a new mother that breast feeding just doesn't happen. And when a new mother is trying her best to breast feed, and the nurses and doctors (and society in general, going by this thread) are on at her to breast feed, can you imagine how much of a failure you would feel if it just wasn't working out? Not to mention the added stress on top of looking after a new born.

I think the only people who have any right to tell a woman to breast feed are those who are trained to do so. And even at that, a woman's stress levels should be taken into account if she's finding it difficult to breast feed. I really can't imagine that a stressed mother would be too healthy for a baby either.

very well put Warfi.

Happy mother, happy baby.

emmiou

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

i don't really think that this was a case of national hysteria, the man is obviously of an older generation, i'm sure a good bollocking onsite would have made him wary of doing this again.

I think this particular gentleman may have an insurance policy against ever receiving a good bollocking...
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-day-a-man-handed-ahern--pound16500-in-a-dublin-pub-1245504.html

BrookieD

For that lady to be asked to leave a public house was downright stupidity of the highest order. Breast feeding is as natural as breathing and if some people has issues then let them leave the restaurant or wherever.

My wife is currently breast feeding our 2nd baby and has on occasion fed in public without so much as a glance from anyone. God help anyone who approached and asked her to stop or leave for “ that carry on!!!” She has every right to feed a hungry child in a public area if he needs it.

IvyTheTerrible

The woman herself made a great point on Joe Duffy...she said that if you went to that pub on a Saturday night you'd see more boobs on show and no one would be complaining to the owner.

It's a disgrace that she couldn't breastfeed in public. The most natural thing in the world.

Kernel

grenache wrote: »

There's more to life than male stereotyping you know. Some of us can actually cook, and even work the hoover!

Yeah, they're called metrosexuals.

caseyann

From the women i know who have tried it,was exhausting.Others have to work,and not good to have a baby who needs to feed off the breast when they have finished maternity leave and then have to ween the baby off anyway and on to a bottle.

Doesn't matter how they do it so long as the baby is fed and taken care of imo. Men would say its best cause they aren't the ones having to do it and if they were it would be outlawed :P

whatdoicare

First off, I want to give you this image:
New middle class mother BF with fag hanging out of her mouth and secret alcohol addiction living on ready meals and taking slimming tablets!
Here's another image: Me as a premature baby being subjected to this!

Cut to many years later and me with Asthma and allergies aswell as a childhood of bowel problems, chest infections and eating problems!

Breast is not always best- mothers don't always eat right, stop smoking, taking drugs or drinking! That only happens in pretend imaginary land!

I personally will probably not BF past the first whatchamacallit immune building stage - not because of horror stories or any of that but because I'm an asthmatic and have a feeling that passing ventolin, becotide and most likely anithistamines and steroids onto my kid won't be the best idea I've ever had.

But that's just me and my experiences of it.

JuliusCaesar

whatdoicare wrote: »

New middle class mother BF with fag hanging out of her mouth and secret alcohol addiction living on ready meals and taking slimming tablets!

Either you were born in the 60s or..........you're not middle class.:P

grenache

Kernel wrote: »

Yeah, they're called metrosexuals.

No, we're just 21st century males. You're confusing us with men who spend 10 minutes shaping their hair in the mirror.

whatdoicare

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Either you were born in the 60s or..........you're not middle class.:P

Born in the 80's and yes, middle class. Folks own their house on a private estate, two new cars, gym memberships, private insurance, the whole shebang. Being middle class doesn't automatically mean intelligence or give someone cop on. My mom did what everyone else her age was doing - smoking like a chimney and downing slimming tablets like they were going out of fashion. She still doesn't believe in passive smoking ffs and thinks she's just the best mother ever for BF!