Anglo tells investigators "No dice"

InReality

That's a very good point.

Who is deciding that these files are privileged ?

If the government is the only shareholder in the bank , and the role of the board of the bank is to act in the best interests of its shareholders...

Then can the government not direct the board to wave any privilege attaching to these files ?

Liam Byrne

InReality wrote: »

That's a very good point.

Who is deciding that these files are privileged ?

If the government is the only shareholder in the bank , and the role of the board of the bank is to act in the best interests of its shareholders...

Then can the government not direct the board to wave any privilege attaching to these files ?

You can forget that, for a start; when Aer Lingus shafted Shannon the same Government refused point blank to act on their shareholding and do what was in the country's interest, citing the excuse of "commercial interference"; it's a bit like the "commercial sensitivity" of the NAMA ****ed-up valuations, and it seems that any phrase like that is the equivalent of diplomatic immunity when it comes to doing anything that's actually in the interests of the Irish people.

AlekSmart

Is everybody colluding then Judges and all ?

Now! I ask again how does it ENSURE the survival of ZOE ?

Sheeesh Fulton a chrói,but on mature reflection I see that you are indeed correct......you must be.

It is inconcievable that "everybody" including most (Not ALL however) Judges could be colluding in dodgy practice simply to keep high rolling developers and their legal teams in business.

I fully concede that the ongoing programme of events scheduled for the Supreme Courts next season is geared towards ensuring that Zoe developments is a leaner and fitter entity,better placed to take advantage of the rapidly changing property development market post NAMA.

The Supreme`s themselves have taken the decidely odd step of announcing to the waiting world that their gig diary is being squeezed tightly due to the constant curtain-calls of Bill and the Zoe`s as they seek to bask in the reflected glory of their NOW! 2000 platinum CD.

One Example of this,I suppose,is the somewhat extended wait for the Pamela Izevbekhai asylum-perjury-mistaken identity case to be re-adjudicated upon.

I would have thought,given Mr Shipsey`s affilliations with and knowledge of the Asylum Legal referral process he more than most would be seeking to ensure a speedy delivery of good sound Supreme Court Judgement ?

Oh well.....one must (again) assume that them oul busted-flush developers are better payers than the Refugee Legal Aid Service ...???

But I digress...and concede that it must be only my befuddled mind seeing shadows where there be only blinding white light. :pac:

Liam Byrne

It doesn't take collusion; all it takes is stalling and obstructing until the problem goes away and people get sick of asking the required questions; and if FF's buddies were taking notes from our previous Taoiseach, they'll be well-versed in how to achieve that!

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

See the part of my previous post that you chose to ignore; do you seriously think that being "capable" includes investing fortunes of OUR MONEY in a bank without reading the ****ing report that showed the amount of dodgy and illegal activities that were going on ?

Yes I do, Brian Cowen took a huge amount of flak for not reading the Lisbon Treaty, most of which came from people who had not read the Lisbon Treaty. This is the same situation; The point is, I dont expect Lenihan to read every report that is presented to him . . we pay civil servants to do that for him. Regardless of what he did or didnt read, there are many economists who believe that recapitalising the banks (including Anglo) was the right thing to do at the time so it really is irrelevant whether or not he read the report.

And I think it's wrong to screw people working hard and barely making ends meet while paying fortunes in golden handshakes and pensions to the bankers and FAS leaders and Ceann Comhairle and everyone else who milked and screwed us and ran us into the ground and ensuring that investors in banks get their money back and call the shots while the rest of us get shafted (including the same banks that - without OUR money - would be worth ZERO increasing their rates so that the people who are already paying to bail them out end up paying even more)

And yet you support the activities that I think are wrong, and then claim that Lenihan has "integrity" ?

You can think whatever you like is "wrong", but if you answer the above questions and still claim that Lenihan has "integrity", then you're not going to be in a position to change my mind on what's "right and wrong".

Lenihan inherited a situation that was not of his or the previous governments making. I genuinely do not believe he is motivated by anything other than a desire to correct that situation (whether or not you agree with his strategy !!)

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Lenihan inherited a situation that was not of his or the previous governments making.

You're joking, right ? Bertie as Minister for Finance, the same Bertie appointing "his friends" to high positions such as Financial Regulator, only to find that those friends weren't doing their jobs ?

Bertie's previous Minister for Finance now our Taoiseach ?

Bertie's dodgy finances causing the government to take their eye off the ball ?

Bertie and his government telling those who warned them about the oncoming train that he wondered why they didn't commit suicide ?

Despite Fianna Fail's lies, the global downturn is NOT the cause of the severity of our woes. It definitely accelerated it, and made it worse, but the reason we're in the **** is precisely BECAUSE the previous government ran with it and stoked the fire.

Fulton Crown

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You can forget that, for a start; when Aer Lingus shafted Shannon the same Government refused point blank to act on their shareholding and do what was in the country's interest, citing the excuse of "commercial interference"; it's a bit like the "commercial sensitivity" of the NAMA ****ed-up valuations, and it seems that any phrase like that is the equivalent of diplomatic immunity when it comes to doing anything that's actually in the interests of the Irish people.

What's this about Aer Lingus "shafting" Shannon ?

Look pal Aer Lingus is a PLC and all PLC's are driven by the bottom line..they have to be.

Simple facts.. The Snn / LHr rout was under performing..Aer Lingus management were no longer prepared to support it.

They pulled out....commercial decision ..end of story !

What you want..the shareholders subsidising the rout ?

Get Real :eek:

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're joking, right ? Bertie as Minister for Finance, the same Bertie appointing "his friends" to high positions such as Financial Regulator, only to find that those friends weren't doing their jobs ?

Bertie's previous Minister for Finance now our Taoiseach ?

Bertie's dodgy finances causing the government to take their eye off the ball ?

Bertie and his government telling those who warned them about the oncoming train that he wondered why they didn't commit suicide ?

Despite Fianna Fail's lies, the global downturn is NOT the cause of the severity of our woes. It definitely accelerated it, and made it worse, but the reason we're in the **** is precisely BECAUSE the previous government ran with it and stoked the fire.

Not joking at all . .

We are in the situation we are in today because we as a nation got caught up in a cycle of greedy consumerism over the past decade. The government are an easy target and it is really easy for us to take the moral high ground and throw sh*t like we all saw it coming, but maybe we should start to look to ourselves for the answer.

Remember . . . We returned FF to government for 12 years because we were making money out of it. We got greedy. . . McCreevy and later Cowen were lowering our taxes and even giving us free money in the SSIA's. We loved it and wanted more and more and more. Newer cars (that we could hardly afford); Bigger houses (on 100%+ credit) with mortgages that were always going to become crippling in the longer terms. . WE inflated the bubble, not Brian Cowen or Brian Lenihan and WE are going to have to put our shoulder to the wheel and drive the recovery.

WE stoked the fire.

dresden8

hallelujajordan wrote: »

we as a nation got caught up in a cycle of greedy consumerism over the past decade.

This is a lie.

We didn't, you might have, but I didn't, luckily enough I get to pick up the tab anyway.

Joy of freaking joys.

And what's that got to do with Anglo hiding the files?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Not joking at all . .

We are in the situation we are in today because we as a nation got caught up in a cycle of greedy consumerism over the past decade. The government are an easy target and it is really easy for us to take the moral high ground and throw sh*t like we all saw it coming, but maybe we should start to look to ourselves for the answer.

INCORRECT, for a start. Many of us did nothing of the sort, and many of us saw it coming.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Remember . . . We returned FF to government for 12 years because we were making money out of it.

INCORRECT AGAIN. Many of us didn't fall for the crap, or overlook the corruption and waste.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

McCreevy and later Cowen were lowering our taxes and even giving us free money in the SSIA's.

:
:

WE inflated the bubble, not Brian Cowen or Brian Lenihan

You don't do irony, do you ? :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Look pal Aer Lingus is a PLC and all PLC's are driven by the bottom line..they have to be.

Simple facts.. The Snn / LHr rout was under performing..Aer Lingus management were no longer prepared to support it.

They pulled out....commercial decision ..end of story !

What you want..the shareholders subsidising the rout ?

Get Real :eek:

Firstly, ditch the condescending "pal" and "get real". It's pathetic and makes me value your contribution even less, if that's possible. By all means, state your case and facts and opinions, but lose that pathetic and counter-productive bull****.

PLCs support the aims of their shareholders and FF - supposedly - kept a shareholding in order to ensure that they had a vote that would prevent Aer Lingus from doing anything to the detriment of the country.

But when it came to the crunch, they bottled it (or secretly sold out, depending on what you read elsewhere).

And "underperforming" in comparison to what, exactly ? A route that they had serious competition on and that they failed to expand as a result ?

hallelujajordan

dresden8 wrote: »

This is a lie.

We didn't, you might have, but I didn't, luckily enough I get to pick up the tab anyway.

Joy of freaking joys.

And what's that got to do with Anglo hiding the files?

Look, lets nail this idea of Anglo hiding the files and the government supporting them to . . its just not true.

I want all of the Anglo files to be disclosed, I want a full and detailed investigation and if individuals are found to have broken the law I want them to go to prison.

But . . . that will only happen if the Bank, and all those associated with it are allowed due process and if the wheels of justice are allowed to move at the right pace (even though that is damned frustrating for the observers).

We still live in a society where innocence is assumed until proven otherwise and it is appropriate that we give the anglo bosses that right.

Liam Byrne wrote:

INCORRECT, for a start. Many of us did nothing of the sort, and many of us saw it coming.

INCORRECT AGAIN. Many of us didn't fall for the crap, or overlook the corruption and waste.

Well maybe you didn't but we as a nation did. . . The banks would not have been able to give out 100% mortgages if there wasn't a demand for them . . The country went nuts from the top down. . . I bought my house six years ago and paid way over the odds for it. . within two years it had doubled in value and I was on the pigs back. At the same time I couldn't get a plumber / electrician / carpernter in to do a bit of work cos' they were picking their jobs, charging way over the odds and driving around in their 5 Series BMW's . .

Look, the country went nuts. . maybe you didn't and if so fair play but its relatively easy to use the anonymity of the internet to claim that you didn't and that you saw it all coming. . .

I am willing to put my hand up and accept that my responsibility for where we are now . . .

asdasd

But . . . that will only happen if the Bank, and all those associated with it are allowed *due process* and if the wheels of justice are allowed to move at the right pace (even though that is damned frustrating for the observers).

Why cant that due process involve getting any and all files we need from Anglo?

dresden8

hallelujajordan wrote: »

due process .

The bankd stonewalled for 7 months

Bosses at the now-nationalised bank insisted some should remain under wraps and after seven months of negotiations a deal was reached that allowed certain records to be kept secret.

7 freaking months the investigators (and I use that word very advisedly) allowed themselve to be stonewalled by the bank.

Carroll has gotten himself into the high court and the supreme court how many times in the last couple of months?

Amazing what you can do when the will is there.

Obviously the will is not there.

Appleby has to go.

asdasd

maybe you didn't and if so fair play but its relatively easy to use the anonymity of the internet to claim that you didn't and that you saw it all coming. . .

We are pseudonomous , not annoymous. So we can verify that people here who say they didnt go mad, or believed the hype, or not, if they talked about it on the various property threads.

Liam Byrne

asdasd wrote: »

Why cant that due process involve getting any and all files we need from Anglo?

.....and besides, don't we own the files at this stage ?

Why are the board that flushed Anglo down the sewer (and caught us in the whirlpool) even still in the picture ?

dresden8

hallelujajordan wrote: »

maybe you didn't and if so fair play but its relatively easy to use the anonymity of the internet to claim that you didn't and that you saw it all coming. . .

You make it sound as if that sentiment is made up.

I'd like to remind you of the statement that will hound Bertie Ahern to his grave

Mr Ahern had been speaking about people who talk down the economy during his speech to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions conference (watch his complete speech here).

'Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something,' he said.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/economy.html

Plenty of people knew what was coming down the line.

NewDubliner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why are the board that flushed Anglo down the sewer (and caught us in the whirlpool) even still in the picture ?

1: They know where the bodies are buried. 2: FF looks after its friends. 3: They're now part of the public service.

dresden8

NewDubliner wrote: »

1: They know where the bodies are buried. 2: FF looks after its friends. 3: They're now part of the public service.

Hey, leave the public service out of it.

There's too many FF cronies in there already who never had to go through the commission and qualify for our jobs.

One of the biggest changes FF ever made was to bypass the commission. That's where the real jobs for the boys will come from in the future.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Look, the country went nuts. . maybe you didn't and if so fair play but its relatively easy to use the anonymity of the internet to claim that you didn't and that you saw it all coming. . .

Firstly, there's no "maybe" about it. I did (see it coming) and I didn't (go nuts).

Secondly, you're really shooting yourself in the foot with this irony lark :rolleyes:, considering you quoted MY post and then went on about anonymity.

Just in case you missed it, here's a hint (it's in bold at the top with an arrow beside it, just as it was in the post that you quoted) :

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.....

So while I accept that pseudonyms and usernames are within board rules, and that you're entitled to post any opinion that you like under your username, DO NOT come on here under a name like "hallelujajordan" and accuse me of using a cloak of "anonymity" as a cop-out. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Firstly, there's no "maybe" about it. I did (see it coming) and I didn't (go nuts).

Secondly, you're really shooting yourself in the foot with this irony lark :rolleyes:, considering you quoted MY post and then went on about anonymity.

Just in case you missed it, here's a hint (it's in bold at the top with an arrow beside it, just as it was in the post that you quoted) :

So while I accept that pseudonyms and usernames are within board rules, and that you're entitled to post any opinion that you like under your username, DO NOT come on here under a name like "hallelujajordan" and accuse me of using a cloak of "anonymity" as a cop-out. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

Whether or not you saw it coming means squat and whether or not you personally went nuts equally means nothing. . .

Whether your name is Liam Byrne or Liam Brady or my name is Hallelujahjordan or Bertie Aherne equally means nothing . . It isn't actually about you and me !


Are you telling me that we as a nation (in general) didn't go nuts ? That the Irish consumers were not in part responsible for inflating the economic bubble ? That the Irish nation didn't return essentially the same administration three times running effectively giving them and their economic policies the strongest possible mandate !

hallelujajordan

dresden8 wrote: »

Plenty of people knew what was coming down the line.

Yes, but the majority of us returned Bertie Aherne to government (three times in a row) supported his economic strategy because it suited us and ought to accept responsibility for our part in the fallout . .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Whether your name is Liam Byrne or Liam Brady or my name is Hallelujahjordan or Bertie Aherne equally means nothing . .

Hold on a second now; your exact quote was

hallelujajordan wrote: »

its relatively easy to use the anonymity of the internet to claim that you didn't and that you saw it all coming. . .

And now that you've been caught out on that - the FACT that I've never posted anonymously, you're choosing to say that it "means nothing" ?

It was relevant enough for you to mention it in the previous post!

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I bought my house six years ago and paid way over the odds for it. . within two years it had doubled in value and I was on the pigs back.

How were you "on the pig's back" if the reason that you bought the house was to live in it ?

Y'see it's people that thought that way that landed us in the crap (so I'm glad you "put your hand up") but for most people there wasn't a "property ladder" - they just wanted somewhere to live.

But don't bundle me in with people who were downright thick!

I was offered a higher loan than I could afford repayments for (actually almost TWICE what I could afford), and I turned it down. The bank was wrong to offer it; I did the sensible thing, and yet (thanks to FF) I'm still up **** creek.

So don't throw ANY blame in my direction. :mad:

heyjude

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Steady on boys...steady on there..this is complicated stuff..remember the old saying "the wheels of justice grind slow but exceedingly small" or something to that effect.

We are only at the early stages of this now..there is a long way to go.

All the signals are that these tossers will have to pay up..even the sh1t stupid politicos know the public won't stand for anything else.

Turning the clock back about a decade and the allegations of payments to politicians, some wanted to send in the gardai at the time to investigate, but No, the government decided to set up the Tribunals instead, ten years went by, hundreds of millions were spent(much of it as a result of obstruction by various parties to the tribunals' workings)and how many politicians were jailed so far ? Exactly....., the past history of taking the slow methodical approach, doesn't inspire any confidence, but would suggest that 5 or 10 years from now, not a single senior banker, borrower or property developer will have been found guilty or spent a day in jail, or possibly have faced any charges.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Y'see it's people that thought that way that landed us in the crap (so I'm glad you "put your hand up") but for most people there wasn't a "property ladder" - they just wanted somewhere to live.

But don't bundle me in with people who were downright thick!

I was offered a higher loan than I could afford repayments for (actually almost TWICE what I could afford), and I turned it down. The bank was wrong to offer it; I did the sensible thing, and yet (thanks to FF) I'm still up **** creek.

So don't throw ANY blame in my direction. :mad:

I'm not sure I did throw ANY blame in your direction . . What I said was that the Irish public in general need to accept the part they played in inflating the bubble . . you keep attacking the specifics within my posts without addressing the substantive issue. .

Look, I don't care that you did the right thing . . the reality is that if most of us did the right thing like you did, we wouldn't be in this mess . . We didn't . . WE, as a nation, in general (not you, specifically) got used to nice cars, foreign holidays and bigger houses . . We overspent during the boom times and we will pay for it now.

It is very easy to blame the government for this, but go back to my earlier posts (which you also haven't really addressed). We returned this government three times over 12 years. . We, as a nation, the majority of us (not you specifically) gave Bertie et al a clap on the back and said, "Yes please, we will have a bit more of that . ." In Fact, we were so caught up in it all we even returned Bertie when he was clearly up to his neck in it . . We really ought to take some responsibility for that (We, the nation. . not you specifically)

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Look, I don't care that you did the right thing . . the reality is that if most of us did the right thing like you did, we wouldn't be in this mess

Interesting polar opposites in the one sentence; surely you should care, and shouldn't generalise; anyone who did the right thing should NOT be screwed over....

hallelujajordan wrote: »

It is very easy to blame the government for this, but go back to my earlier posts (which you also haven't really addressed).

I remember thinking "oh, crap" when 100% mortgages were offered; I remember thinking that there was a severe conflict of interest when the same banks who were trying to ensure their developers' loans were paid back were the same banks who were giving out the loans to people to buy the houses developed (keeping an eye on ensuring that the bigger loan was paid back, because it's easier chase an individual).

And in the meantime Bertie's buddy wasn't even doing his ****ing job as so-called "Financial Regulator" ! Whose responsibility is that ? It's hardly the responsibility of the average Joe Soap if a Taoiseach's appointee isn't doing his job ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We really ought to take some responsibility for that

How the hell can I take responsibility for something that I didn't do ? And I'm sure I'm not alone. THAT'S the problem; those who screwed up should take the blame - and the hit; NOT the rest of us.

Oh, and P.S. Even though you didn't address the "anonymity" point, I have to at least thank you for not using it again.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting polar opposites in the one sentence; surely you should care, and shouldn't generalise; anyone who did the right thing should NOT be screwed over....

hallelujajordan wrote: »

It is very easy to blame the government for this, but go back to my earlier posts (which you also haven't really addressed).

I remember thinking "oh, crap" when 100% mortgages were offered; I remember thinking that there was a severe conflict of interest when the same banks who were trying to ensure their developers' loans were paid back were the same banks who were giving out the loans to people to buy the houses developed (keeping an eye on ensuring that the bigger loan was paid back, because it's easier chase an individual).

And in the meantime Bertie's buddy wasn't even doing his ****ing job as so-called "Financial Regulator" ! Whose responsibility is that ? It's hardly the responsibility of the average Joe Soap if a Taoiseach's appointee isn't doing his job ?



How the hell can I take responsibility for something that I didn't do ? And I'm sure I'm not alone. THAT'S the problem; those who screwed up should take the blame - and the hit; NOT the rest of us.

Oh, and P.S. Even though you didn't address the "anonymity" point, I have to at least thank you for not using it again.

You continue to personalise the debate. . It really is not that important what either you or I saw or did. It sounds like you had remarkable foresight . . congrats for that but the reality is that most people didn't say 'Oh Crap' when 100% mortgages were offered. Many people said 'Yes Please' and some even looked for more . . 105% mortgages were given in certain places. The country went crazy (again . .not you specifically). We spent too much, we drove up house prices, we drove up inflation; We forced the governments hand with a ridiculous benchmarking process that drove the public sector pay bill way out of whack. WE (not you, specifically) created this problem and WE will have to resolve it.

It might not be our job to run the country but we select those who do and we continued to select the same administration because WE (not you, specifically) liked what we were getting out of it. . .

I'm happy to address the anonymity comment but I didn't want to drive the thread OT. My point is based around the fact that right across these boards there are lots of people throwing sh*t about the government, the banks etc and making allegations that are in some cases outrageous. I am irritated that so many people are happy to take the moral high ground, blame the government for everything and absolve themselves of any responsibility. We can do that because the internet is anonymous. It is much more difficult to step up, take political office and try to drive change in an open and public way.

If your name is Liam Byrne, fair play, you are one of a few who use their real name on boards.ie.

asdasd

I am irritated that so many people are happy to take the moral high ground, blame the government for everything and absolve themselves of any responsibility.....We can do that because the internet is anonymous. It is much more difficult to step up, take political office and try to drive change in an open and public way.

it is, as I pointed out, not anonymous but pseudonoymous. Were it fully anonymous we would be given a different name every post.

Boards has memory. you cansearch our posts. My first post here is from 4 years ago, and as far as I recall it was about a property market collapse. I say as I recall but the limit on searches ( at 500) limits my ability to prove this.

Nevertheless, here is an example of a post from me more than a year ago, on the subject of government loans for "low" income earners ( people on 58K or less). I was arguing against the idea that we needed to subsidise people on high incomes at all.

60K is more than the average household income ( which is in for a fall in the next fews years anyway) and close to twice the median industrial wage. Eventually median house prices will fall to the level that people on 60K can easily afford. Think about it? If banks dont lend to middle income earners then what is going to hold the market up?

So wait. Go into a bank in two years and get that house for 180-200K ( if that).

The logic on this is simple. This loan is like giving money free, or cheap. If the government were to give everybody 100K to buy a house then all prices across the board would increase by 100K ( by the way in that scenario were prices not falling the original couple would still need a loan of 295K as the house would now cost 395K).

Think about what is happening here. It is a transfer of money from taxpayer to sellers and developers. If you want a house, and cant get credit, wait until houses fall in price until you they fall within your dredit range; it is precisely because credit is tough that this has to happen.

The government scheme is a scam.

That government scheme was supported by lots of people in that thread, as being good for the FTB ( the typical charlatan response).

Thats one of many responses I have posted in the last 4-5 years on the absurdity of Irish property. There is an entire thread on the issue running 4-5 years. The people you are arguing with on this thread were contributors to that thread, and founders of it ( Gurramok in particular comes to mind).

So you cant come into a forum with institutional memory and accuse people who have rubbished the whole idea of endless property rises for years, and done it as almost lone voices in the internet sphere, as responsible for anything that happened. We may have stopped some of the madness, as boards.ie after all is a public forum with viewers as well as contributers. More of the former, and that implies some limited influence. But who knows?

in any case stop saying "we". Say most.

hallelujajordan

asdasd wrote: »

So you cant come into a forum with institutional memory and accuse people who have rubbished the whole idea of endless property rises for years, and done it as almost lone voices in the internet sphere, as responsible for anything that happened. We may have stopped some of the madness, as boards.ie after all is a public forum with viewers as well as contributers. More of the former, and that implies some limited influence. But who knows?

in any case stop saying "we". Say most.

And I don't accuse YOU of being responsible for what happened. . . When I use the word 'WE' I refer to the collective Irish populace. . . it's not inappropriate to use the word WE in this context and it is not an attack on anyone individually . . It is a comment about all of us, collectively. We didn't all buy houses with 100% mortgages and drive up inflation but collectively we did. We did't all vote FF for the last 12 years but collectively we put in place a FF led administration. EVERY public sector worker probably didn't agree with benchmarking but they all took the benefits that it delivered . . We didn't all take the free money that the SSIA's gave us . . (well actually, we probably did !) If you want to blame that administration then you also have to blame the collective populace that elected them and reelected them and reelected them.

AlekSmart

That government scheme was supported by lots of people in that thread, as being good for the FTB ( the typical charlatan response).

Thats one of many responses I have posted in the last 4-5 years on the absurdity of Irish property.

And that absurdity appears to be well placed to continue and even expand.

I`m in no way a property expert but I have a strong dislike for the manner in which ALL current Government fiscal policy,particularly NAMA,appears focused on "getting the market going again".

The mantra of "supporting" the First-Time Buyer is heard endlessly with the Banking Sector all too keen to pretend its concern about the needs of this thoroughly modern concept group.

No No No No No...to quote the Vicar of Dibley character..no no no no no !....this is lunacy of the first magnitude and TOTALLY focused upon minimising the risk profile and losses of less than 100 INDIVIDUALS connected with the Irish Building and Developing sector.

We really do need some outside guidance on this,preferably from a country which never enslaved generations of it`s youth to 40 year mortgages on wildly overpriced and equally ordinary "Luxury" housing units far from viable centres of employment.

I would far prefer to see many of the currently unfinished or idle "Luxury" developments returned to small-scale agricultural use than to see MY tax-euro wasted in attempting to flog them to MY children as viable or even desireable places to spend the remainder of their already impoverished lives !