The Lisbon Treaty, Last Minute Poll!

namloc1980

PomBear wrote: »

Any who follows European politics can tell you of a 90% certainty of Blairs role

So 90% (your opinion) equals that he is actually appointed.....O....K

PomBear wrote: »

Where in the treaty does it mention economic recovery in a treaty first drafted in 2000/01

It doesn't....never claimed it did.

junkyard

A big NO vote from me again this time around.

PomBear

Stark wrote: »

It doesn't. "Yes to recovery" means that Fine Gael are of the opinion that the treaty will do more good than harm to Ireland's economic prospects.

Where in the treaty does it say that the minimum wage will be €1.84 per hour?

cóir are the lifeline of the Yes side in my opinion because cóir's lies are more obvious than Fianna Failures, Fine Gaels and Labours

PomBear

namloc1980 wrote: »

So 90% (your opinion) equals that he is actually appointed.....O....K



It doesn't....never claimed it did.

So you're agreeing it is a lie by the Yes crowd?

Sam Vimes

PomBear wrote: »

Where in the treaty does it mention economic recovery in a treaty first drafted in 2000/01

Can you point out the article that says that a no vote will trigger a general election or the one that says it will teach our politicians a lesson? How about the one that says Ireland will definitely not be negatively effected in any way by a no vote?

namloc1980

PomBear wrote: »

So you're agreeing it is a lie by the Yes crowd?

No....are you just not reading my posts at all??

It is an opinion. I am not aware of anyone on the Yes side who has explicitly stated that economic recovery is specifically mentioned in any article/chapter of the Treaty...are you??

Mrmoe

PomBear wrote: »

ahem......
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2663036/Tony-Blair-to-head-the-EU-within-weeks.html

I'm registered and will be voting no

and have €20 on a no vote in Paddy Power:cool:

I am going to put 20 on a Yes victory and vote No, that way I can't lose.:D

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Can you point out the article that says that a no vote will trigger a general election or the one that says it will teach our politicians a lesson? How about the one that says Ireland will definitely not be negatively effected in any way by a no vote?

Can you provide evidence that there will definitely not be some positives to a No vote tomorrow?

Plotician

Registered, and it's a no from me.

Do not like the idea of validating the EUs intentions for expanded military capability, regardless of whether Irelands neutrality is or isn't protected by the assurances.

The EU is good as an economic union, but a significant step towards a militarised union raises a warning flag IMO, and that on it's own is enough for a no.

Max Power1

Plotician wrote: »

Registered, and it's a no from me.

Do not like the idea of validating the EUs intentions for expanded military capability, regardless of whether Irelands neutrality is or isn't protected by the assurances.

The EU is good as an economic union, but the step towards a militarised union raises a warning flag IMO, and that on it's own is enough for a no.

+1 on the military issue for me.

Stark

Mrmoe wrote: »

Can you provide evidence that there will definitely not be some positives to a No vote tomorrow?

Who's saying there won't be some? The question is whether the positives outweigh the negatives.

papachango

Stark wrote: »

It doesn't. "Yes to recovery" means that Fine Gael are of the opinion that the treaty will do more good than harm to Ireland's economic prospects.

Where in the treaty does it say that the minimum wage will be €1.84 per hour?

With regard to the Irish minimum wage and Lisbon the following should help people get their head around it.
The Irish minimum wage of €8.65 is protected under Lisbon, which is a fact. Passing Lisbon WILL NOT affect the Irish minimum wage. Like a lot of things we are told by Cowen & Co. it is said in such a way as to make you think one thing, but in fact the reality is the opposite of what you think. €8.65 is the minimum wage an Irish worker working in Ireland can be paid, fact. However, under Lisbon, a Polish worker can work, in Ireland for the Polish minimum wage if he is employed here by a Polish company. This is something else you probably would not think possible as the government says ‘Irish minimum wage will not be affected’. True, but no one will give Irish companies work in Ireland because our minimum wage is too big, so it doesn’t matter that the wage is unaffected we will be more uncompetitive than ever and in effect unemployable in our own country. The only real solution to this upcoming problem is that if the government decides to lower the minimum wage, so that Ireland Inc. can ‘get competitive’. If we pass Lisbon, then any EU country can send workers to legally work here for the minimum wage of the country they originate from. Fact. (See the Laval case) and for both public and private sector employees the Laval ruling also means it will be illegal to partake in industrial action if you don’t like it. Nice touch. Criminalising the right to strike.

Make no mistake about it passing Lisbon cannot force Ireland to lower its minimum wage. Fact. However Economic factors most definitely can and they will, believe you me. I have run many companies and I know that as a business owner you do the following. When you operate in a jurisdiction you may well register the head office in another, for many reasons, the obvious one is taxation. However you may register a subsidiary ie the recruitment arm of the company, in another state to take advantage of cheaper labour costs. This will happen. Trust me business owners in Ireland never mis a trick when it comes to maximising their profits. Do you think they care about patriotism and giving you a job? Get real.

Vote whichever way gets you off, but do not say that you were not warned.

PomBear

namloc1980 wrote: »

No....are you just not reading my posts at all??

It is an opinion. I am not aware of anyone on the Yes side who has explicitly stated that economic recovery is specifically mentioned in any article/chapter of the Treaty...are you??

So if Lisbon does not come in, then no economic recovery or european aid will happen, is that correct?

zenno

well i'll be going over at 7am to vote NO. I can relax now as i am comfortable in the knowing that there will be a large rejection of this treaty for the second time. and no i'm not psychic.

marco_polo

papachango wrote: »

With regard to the Irish minimum wage and Lisbon the following should help people get their head around it.
The Irish minimum wage of €8.65 is protected under Lisbon, which is a fact. Passing Lisbon WILL NOT affect the Irish minimum wage. Like a lot of things we are told by Cowen & Co. it is said in such a way as to make you think one thing, but in fact the reality is the opposite of what you think. €8.65 is the minimum wage an Irish worker working in Ireland can be paid, fact. However, under Lisbon, a Polish worker can work, in Ireland for the Polish minimum wage if he is employed here by a Polish company. This is something else you probably would not think possible as the government says ‘Irish minimum wage will not be affected’. True, but no one will give Irish companies work in Ireland because our minimum wage is too big, so it doesn’t matter that the wage is unaffected we will be more uncompetitive than ever and in effect unemployable in our own country. The only real solution to this upcoming problem is that if the government decides to lower the minimum wage, so that Ireland Inc. can ‘get competitive’. If we pass Lisbon, then any EU country can send workers to legally work here for the minimum wage of the country they originate from. Fact. (See the Laval case) and for both public and private sector employees the Laval ruling also means it will be illegal to partake in industrial action if you don’t like it. Nice touch. Criminalising the right to strike.

Make no mistake about it passing Lisbon cannot force Ireland to lower its minimum wage. Fact. However Economic factors most definitely can and they will, believe you me. I have run many companies and I know that as a business owner you do the following. When you operate in a jurisdiction you may well register the head office in another, for many reasons, the obvious one is taxation. However you may register a subsidiary ie the recruitment arm of the company, in another state to take advantage of cheaper labour costs. This will happen. Trust me business owners in Ireland never mis a trick when it comes to maximising their profits. Do you think they care about patriotism and giving you a job? Get real.

Vote whichever way gets you off, but do not say that you were not warned.

Hey spammy, I answered this exact post on the other thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62354626&postcount=94

PomBear

Mrmoe wrote: »

I am going to put 20 on a Yes victory and vote No, that way I can't lose.:D

I'd bet in William Hill because you'll make about 80c from paddy power

!___A___!

Another NO vote here.

Stark

The Laval decision (which is irrelevant to Lisbon) only applied in Sweden because Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage. Add to that what marco_polo repeated.

hcvti

Remember Irish ferries replacing a high Percentage of their employees with cheaper non nationals, Look up the Lavelle ruling, this should clear up what is ahead for us all.

I just feel honored to have got a polling card in the post, simultaneously I feel saddened for the other 495 million Europeans who don't get to vote on this.

I will not sell out my country for false claims of Economic recovery and creation of Jobs. We fought long enough for our freedom!
Ask any of the eastern Europeans we all work with what they would vote. they don't want to go back into a dictatorship with this self amending treaty!

Tony Blair is a real candidate for the position of "President of Europe".

No one has yet explained to me how loosing our power(Voting Rights) in europe is good for Ireland.

I don't mind someone voting yes if they have looked up both sides of the argument and make an educated guess, however "Yes to jobs & Yes to Recovery" is not a valid argument. Ask the No side are they for Jobs and Recovery, I don't think they will all be for jobs or recovery, this is just a spin doctor's statement to fool the Irish people into voting yes, this is coming from the same person who came up with the idea of Bertie Ahern winning his money on a horse! Wake up people!

If you are unsure of the outcome of something why would you vote Yes to that then?

Stark

hcvtl wrote:

they don't want to go back into a dictatorship with this self amending treaty!

That's another falsehood spread by Ganley based on a selective quoting of Article 48 of the Treaty, where he omits the most important pieces saying that "changes must be ratified according to individual member states' constitutional requirements", ie: referendum in Ireland. We have nothing to fear from it being self-amending, it has no more self amending power than Nice had.

hcvtl wrote:

No one has yet explained to me how loosing our power(Voting Rights) in europe is good for Ireland.

It wouldn't be if that was the case. In reality, we have marginal increases in voting power. We retain the same number of MEPs, where the likes of Germany lose MEPs. Gone is the weighted vote in the EU council, so we're left decisions needing to be approved by population majority (not so good for us) and by majority of countries (good for us), which averages out at a slightly better voting weight than under Nice. Scofflaw explains it better than me here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62260127#post62260127 . And of course we still have equal representation in the Commission.

yiddo_til_i_die

I've been on an online democratic swap forum, that enables people to swap their votes, around Europe on various referenda. I swapped mine with a guy called Pierre who wants me to vote Non for him.

He says he has already voted non, as did many of his compatriots, and was a bit iffy as to whether this would contravene the democratic principles espoused by the EU?

his MEP seemed to get a kick out of it anyway.

Mrmoe

Stark wrote: »

Who's saying there won't be some? The question is whether the positives outweigh the negatives.

You are 100% correct. This is where the interpretation comes in and an individuals view point. This is what riles me about this whole debate. People (from both sides) jump down the oppositions throat for having a different position/opinion/interpretation to them. What I am not saying is that people shouldn't be allowed challenge an idea bit to label a particular side stupid/idiotic is quite arrogant. We could do with more empathy in this campaign.

namloc1980

PomBear wrote: »

So if Lisbon does not come in, then no economic recovery or european aid will happen, is that correct?

Oh dear.....you're misreading what I've written once again :rolleyes:

Economic recovery will happen......it is called an Economic Cycle! However Fine Gael and other Yes parties are of the OPINION that a Yes to Lisbon will promote a healthier and quicker recovery than a No will.

papachango

Lisbon rejection or acceptance, will in NO WAY affect the economy. Economics affect economies.
Unemployment growth is falling rapidly and should stabilise very shortly.
I'll make it easy for those at the back of the class. As long as there is a profit to be had in Ireland Inc. People will invest. If our minimum wage and energy costs eat up the profit margin to the point where they are gone, then people will not invest.
Nothing to do with Lisbon. get it through your thick skulls. Its to do with the costs of running a business.

PomBear

namloc1980 wrote: »

Oh dear.....you're misreading what I've written once again :rolleyes:

Economic recovery will happen......it is called an Economic Cycle! However Fine Gael and other Yes parties are of the OPINION that a Yes to Lisbon will promote a healthier and quicker recovery than a No will.

which is an unfounded lie or a unfounded opinion, i'll give them enough credit say it's a strategic lie

Agent Smith

2. I am registered to vote tomorrow and i am going to vote YES.

namloc1980

PomBear wrote: »

which is an unfounded lie or a unfounded opinion, i'll give them enough credit say it's a strategic lie

Are you saying it is impossible, no way at all, never will happen, not a chance in the world that passing Lisbon might....just might promote a quicker Economic recovery???

kinser

a nice kick in the gonads to cowen NO from me

Gardalover

no no no no no vote no please

PomBear

namloc1980 wrote: »

Are you saying it is impossible, no way at all, never will happen, not a chance in the world that passing Lisbon might....just might promote a quicker Economic recovery???

So if there is a slight chance, why pass this dangerous treaty?
why do the yes side promote it as their main campaign motive?
and this is not an economic treaty by the way