The Lisbon Treaty, Last Minute Poll!

Plotician

It's quite interesting to watch the economy discussions. It's an area where the no proponents can give specific reasons why the result shouldn't make any difference, and one where the yes side can only offer an opinion.

I havn't seen one concrete specific from anyone (other than reference to goodwill which is not specific) which gives a clear example of how a yes will help the economy.

The economy question is an academic one for me as i've made up my mind on other issues, but it's still intriguing to watch!

vinylbomb

TheCoolerKing wrote: »

3. I do not live in Ireland or i am not entitled to vote but i hope the Irish people vote YES.

And I voted Yes in the last one, and I am gutted that I am not there to vote yes in this one too.

kinser wrote: »

a nice kick in the gonads to cowen NO from me

And it saddens me that this sort of sh1t has been trivialising such an important public decision.

namloc1980

PomBear wrote: »

So if there is a slight chance, why pass this dangerous treaty?

That is not the only reason to vote yes later today. Dangerous is your opinion of it.

PomBear wrote:

why do the yes side promote it as their main campaign motive?

Why do the No side promote baseless fiction as their main argument? Because the actual detail of the treaty is quite boring and long winded. It has to be brought back to the prevailing concerns of the people, economy being the current #1.

PomBear wrote:

and this is not an economic treaty by the way

I know.....never said it was!

Tarobot

Plotician wrote: »

I havn't seen one concrete specific from anyone (other than reference to goodwill which is not specific) which gives a clear example of how a yes will help the economy.

The economy question is an academic one for me as i've made up my mind on other issues, but it's still intriguing to watch!

That is just NOT true. Read this:

The twin crises of economic recession and environmental degradation are the most significant challenges facing Ireland today. With the second highest unemployment rate in the EU-15 and the second highest level of CO2 emissions per person in the EU-25, it is clear that a serious rethink of Ireland’s employment and environmental policies is needed. Investment in the green economy is the only way to tackle both issues at the same time; and the green economy is about to take off.

A recent study by Forfás estimated the Environmental Goods and Services sector in Ireland at €2.8 billion in 2008. By contrast, the global sector was worth €600 billion in 2005 and is expected to hit €800 billion in 2015. Given Ireland’s extensive natural renewable energy resources, “green” image and strong IT base, the potential for significant growth in Ireland’s EGS (Environmental Goods and Services) industry and the creation of new jobs in the sector is clear.

So what impact would the Lisbon Treaty have on Ireland’s future green jobs market? The answer is three-fold. First, Lisbon makes fighting climate change an explicit objective of the Union for the first time. It also extends Europe’s capabilities in the area of energy and energy networks. Moreover, in its external relations, the EU would have a responsibility to “preserve and improve the quality of the environment and the sustainable management of global natural resources, in order to ensure sustainable development’ (Article 10A, TEU). This means sustainable development and the protection of the environment would be an underlying value for all future relations with other countries.

As the major driver for Ireland’s Environmental Goods and Services industry, EU policy is essential to Ireland’s green jobs market. Already we have seen significant investment and job creation in areas such as renewable energies, energy efficiency and eco-construction (including retrofitting) as well as environmental consultancy and management. The Lisbon Treaty strengthens the EU’s hand in policy areas relevant to the greentech industry and would therefore ensure that this important impetus continues to foster growth in Irish green jobs.

The second reason why the Lisbon Treaty is good for the green jobs market in Ireland relates to the European common market. In the past, the common market has proven to be instrumental in creating Irish jobs, providing a market for Irish exports and attracting foreign direct investment. Given that Europe has the most progressive environmental policies in the world, the potential for Irish exports to Europe is even greater than before.
The ratification of the Lisbon Treaty would ensure that Ireland remains a major player in the European market and a desirable destination for green foreign direct investment. In particular, the emphasis on a European energy market and the interconnection of national energy networks would ensure that Ireland is able to sell its surplus electricity produced through renewables to other European countries.

Finally, the Lisbon Treaty encourages green jobs through the promotion of research and the improved protection of intellectual property rights. Innovation-led growth has become increasingly central to Ireland’s economy and investment in ‘cleantech’ research will be necessary to exploit the significant opportunities that exist in areas such as battery technology, like Limerick’s Charles Parson Initiative and smart grid applications such as Cool Power’s EMMA smart meter. The Lisbon Treaty highlights R&D collaboration through the new objective of “achieving a European research area in which researchers, scientific knowledge and technology circulate freely and encouraging it to become more competitive, including in its industry” (Article 163, TFEU). This increased level of cooperation among European researchers, together with a commitment to the exchange of best practice, would help bolster the number of Irish “green collar” workers as new opportunities are created through green innovation and growth.

Of course innovations need protection so that the ensuing economic rewards can be reaped by innovators and researchers. Under Lisbon, Irish cleantech innovations receive greater protection through the creation of new European-wide intellectual property rights. This means that Irish entrepreneurs could apply for a single, centrally-enforceable European patent, rather than the current European patent that is only enforceable on a national level. The new patent would ensure that Irish cleantech innovation is properly rewarded and incentivised, thus securing vital investment.

The future of Ireland’s economic and environmental success lies in the green economy. The Lisbon Treaty supports and promotes the green economy and full employment (Article 3.3 TEU) and takes tangible steps to create green jobs in Ireland.

vinylbomb

Plotician wrote: »

I havn't seen one concrete specific from anyone (other than reference to goodwill which is not specific) which gives a clear example of how a yes will help the economy.

You really need to read this so. Independent economists have written it, and it is very clear what direction things will take depending on the outcome of the vote.

http://www.indecon.ie/download/pdf/aw_lisbon_sept.pdf

To summarize for you, No is bad for the economy.

Plotician

Tarobot wrote: »

That is just NOT true. Read this:

What's not true? (read what i wrote).

Now maybe i'll read the rest of your post and if it's useful i'll thank you for the reference.

K-9

Perestroika wrote: »

If the Yes side get their way tomorrow we will have an English president (a warmonger at that) Just another one, of thousands, reason to vote No To Lisbon.

Are you actually telling people this crap?

What you say is actually true if you vote No and stands a good chance of not being true if you vote Yes.

Vote No, Brown is guaranteed to be President. Vote Yes, there is no guarantee whatsoever Blair will. Opposition seems to be gathering against Blair and the EU usually goes for compromise candidates.

Steviemak

namloc1980 wrote: »

You will vote No because the politicians supporting Yes are "cocky"?!? Does anyone actually vote based on the issues at hand instead of for superficial reasons?

And these are the people who shout loudest about lack of democracy - go figure

PomBear

namloc1980 wrote: »

That is not the only reason to vote yes later today. Dangerous is your opinion of it.



Why do the No side promote baseless fiction as their main argument? Because the actual detail of the treaty is quite boring and long winded. It has to be brought back to the prevailing concerns of the people, economy being the current #1.



I know.....never said it was!

Apart from cóir, where are there lies?

Scofflaw

PomBear wrote: »

Apart from cóir, where are there lies?

Oh, variously - Sinn Fein make the same false claim about fish, the same false claim about voting weights, a diluted version of the minimum wage claim, the same false claims about the guarantees, and probably the same false claim about "an end to referendums". Same claims are made by Libertas, Joe Higgins (fewer), People's Movement, and most of the little shouty groups. People like the taxi drivers and Farmers Against Lisbon add in the lies about Lisbon being about Turkish accession.

And God only knows what their various canvassers are saying on the doorsteps.

cordially,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

PomBear wrote: »

Apart from cóir, where are there lies?

Sinn Féin, who are advancing some of the same spurious arguments as Cóir; Declan Ganley; UKIP under their flag of convenience; many of those who are arguing here for a no vote; some taxi drivers (I'm guessing on that one: the last taxi driver I had a conversation with was very entertaining on the subject of John B. Keane).

[Scofflaw thinks and types faster than I do!]

Plotician

Any thoughts on Vincent Browne's stance?

brandodub

Yes Vote for me Ireland and Europe full stop

moondogspot

zenno wrote: »

well i'll be going over at 7am to vote NO. I can relax now as i am comfortable in the knowing that there will be a large rejection of this treaty for the second time. and no i'm not psychic.

Fingers crossed Zenno.;)

hcvti

marco_polo wrote: »

Hey spammy, I answered this exact post on the other thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62354626&postcount=94

Well Stated marco_polo, Remember the Irish Ferries dispute?
You think we have high employment now, If yes goes true you aint seen nothing yet!

Anyway If the Yes vote goes true then we will all be working for Less, Maybe that is why Michael O'Leary is For it. Anyone see his debate with ganley?
All he did was try to insult ganley, he did not have one shread of proof to back up his claims for a yes vote, for someone who I had great respect for he really let me down that night!

happenstance

Survey of family, friends & work colleagues: 20/22 NO - Kick Cowen & Co and sod off pompous yea-sayers... what part of "NO" didn't you understand in June 2008?


This pre-economic crisis treaty for post crisis times is already dead in the water anyway. :rolleyes:

papachango

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oh, variously - Sinn Fein make the same false claim about fish, the same false claim about voting weights, a diluted version of the minimum wage claim, the same false claims about the guarantees, and probably the same false claim about "an end to referendums". Same claims are made by Libertas, Joe Higgins (fewer), People's Movement, and most of the little shouty groups. People like the taxi drivers and Farmers Against Lisbon add in the lies about Lisbon being about Turkish accession.

And God only knows what their various canvassers are saying on the doorsteps.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Are you posting this as a moderator Scofflaw or are you posting this in your capacity as a Boards.ie poster, not moderator. I ask because I received an infraction for stating that you accused me of throwing Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt,FUD, around. When in fact what I posted was very factual. To remind you it was about the current EU Vice President being a concvicted criminal, remember? Jacques Barrot, eight month sentence in 2000 for fraud. he is also the current EU Justice commisioner.
I just want to know because you accuse people of spreading FUD when in fact they are imparting factual information.
You, as a poster CANNOT, be taken seriously.
As a moderator , well I am not allowed state an opinion because I'll be 'banned'. Make up your mind whether you want to be involved in discussion. If so, drop your role as a moderator because it presents a very real conflict of interest.
You want your bread buttered on both sides. Doesn't work like that.

Plotician

vinylbomb wrote: »

You really need to read this so. Independent economists have written it, and it is very clear what direction things will take depending on the outcome of the vote.

http://www.indecon.ie/download/pdf/aw_lisbon_sept.pdf

Read it, sits with my original comment that the yes side are limited to putting forward opinions only. To quote the report itself 'The survey results represent the opinions of 66 leading economists ...'

Also thought this was quite relevant:

'While few economists, if any, would suggest that the Lisbon Treaty on its
own would be central to solving all the economic challenges, the issue is
whether it would help or hinder the delivery of solutions to the economic
challenges facing Europe. While some economists surveyed felt it would not impact on the solutions, a majority, 58%, felt it could help deliver solutions'.

It doesn't sound as conclusive as the sound bites would suggest ('felt it could' could have read 'stated it would').

It's also difficult to recall any emphasis on the economy during the first referendum which IMO is odd if it was so central to the impact the treaty would have.

To say that we should vote on the treaty in the context of the economy today also sounds unconvincing. It's the same treaty without legal assurances regarding Irelands economy, and if we're going to use opinion and beliefs as justification for the argument then this should be the right of both sides of the debate anyway.

Basically we're back to interpretation - and if that's the case then everyone is entitled to interpret the treaty in any which way they like, and everyone is entitled to choose who they want to listen to and who they don't.

Thankfully this particular merry-go-round will come to a screaming halt after tomorrow!

papachango

Just posting some FACTS Scofflaw, seen as you say there aren't much coming from the 'No' Side :rolleyes:

free-man

namloc1980 wrote: »

as revealed by the Sun

The role is actually President of the European Council. Tony Blair has twice been the President of the European Council in the past. So if he does get it (by no means a certainty) it would be his THIRD time in the role. The role has no voting rights or legislative or executive power whatsoever. Get your FACTS straight lads.

It has no voting right, legislative or executive power once the treaty is passed you mean.

However a few months down the line this is easily changed via the "self amending" article 48 with no need for a referendum.. bingo -> EU President.

I wonder if they'll change the name to EU president too... has a better ring to it.

free-man

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

or it expired...

Ha! It's pretty easy to re-open it see ----> here

Why would anyone want the poll to expire before the referendum?

vinylbomb

Plotician wrote: »

Read it, sits with my original comment that the yes side are limited to putting forward opinions only. To quote the report itself 'The survey results represent the opinions of 66 leading economists ...'

You cant create hard facts and statistics about the future, because inevitably they will not be 100% correct. These guys are experts in their field, and if their opinions (which are in effect predictions or at the very least bell-weathers) don't carry more clout than the rest of the populace we're in anarchic waters altogether.

Plotician wrote: »

'While few economists, if any, would suggest that the Lisbon Treaty on its
own would be central to solving all the economic challenges, the issue is
whether it would help or hinder the delivery of solutions to the economic
challenges facing Europe. While some economists surveyed felt it would not impact on the solutions, a majority, 58%, felt it could help deliver solutions'.

I like it. Thats a very subtle fudge you almost pulled there.

To clarify, you quote "it would help or hinder the delivery of solutions to the economic challenges facing Europe".

The debate is in relation to how the treaty would have an impact on Ireland within the union, not the union as a whole which is what your quote refers to.
So, to quote the correct section of the report

"The potential significance of the Irish vote on the Lisbon Treaty for Irish economic prospects is an aspect on which the vast majority of the leading academic and resarch economists held strong views and this is reflected in the fact that over 90% of the economists surveyed were of the view that Ireland's best interests would be secured by a Yes vote"

Plotician wrote: »

It's also difficult to recall any emphasis on the economy during the first referendum which IMO is odd if it was so central to the impact the treaty would have.

There was emphasis on how we interact with other member states, which clearly has an economic impact. Given that the economy is the hot topic du jour it represents a major selling point currently. Same message, phrased differently to represent the current conditions.

Elmer Blooker

I'm YES but it'll be no and as far as the UKIP are concerned we can all become thick paddies again!

Scofflaw

free-man wrote: »

It has no voting right, legislative or executive power once the treaty is passed you mean.

However a few months down the line this is easily changed via the "self amending" article 48 with no need for a referendum.. bingo -> EU President.

I wonder if they'll change the name to EU president too... has a better ring to it.

It's not something that could be changed under the simplified revision procedure, because it's not in Part Three TFEU. You really should have read the Treaty.

regards,
Scofflaw

Sam Vimes

free-man wrote: »

It has no voting right, legislative or executive power once the treaty is passed you mean.

However a few months down the line this is easily changed via the "self amending" article 48 with no need for a referendum.. bingo -> EU President.

I wonder if they'll change the name to EU president too... has a better ring to it.

You should know better at this stage

smokingman

Voting YES because I refuse to be swayed by foreign marketing teams coming onto our beloved boards.ie, creating multiple new accounts and posting lies.

I will NOT be swayed by the likes of Ganley, Coir, the communist parties and the UK nazi party.

I will NOT be swayed by the lack of any truth whatsoever in any no poster I've seen.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone telling me that the EU has been anything but good for MY country.

I will NOT be swayed by conspirary theorists sitting in their bedrooms creating some kind of EVIL EMPIRE out of the EU which we ARE a part of (does that make us evil lads? :rolleyes:)

I will NOT be swayed by any part quotation of the Treaty that usually forgets to include the parts where we can duck out of anything proposed.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone sprouting crap suggesting we have less of a say when QM voting needs AT LEAST 15 countries AND 65% of the total population of our Europe to get something passed.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone suggesting I'm unpatriotic to support a yes vote - I love this island even with all it's problems but I also love being a European. Travelling across Europe has given me the comfortable feeling that people are mostly the same in things they want, food, love, happiness....
We are Irish citizens standing side by side with our neighbours for a common cause - the foundations the EU were built on and if the Treaty is ratified, this will include the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights - what's wrong with that?

I'm urging people to vote yes only because I believe it to be right.
Not because I'm being paid by foreign interests, not because I believe any of the lies, not because I am in any way looking out for anything but this Islands future.

I hope the future will be good - same as every European.
-Ed

ben bedlam

smokingman wrote: »

Voting YES because I refuse to be swayed by foreign marketing teams coming onto our beloved boards.ie, creating multiple new accounts and posting lies.

I will NOT be swayed by the likes of Ganley, Coir, the communist parties and the UK nazi party.

I will NOT be swayed by the lack of any truth whatsoever in any no poster I've seen.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone telling me that the EU has been anything but good for MY country.

I will NOT be swayed by conspirary theorists sitting in their bedrooms creating some kind of EVIL EMPIRE out of the EU which we ARE a part of (does that make us evil lads? :rolleyes:)

I will NOT be swayed by any part quotation of the Treaty that usually forgets to include the parts where we can duck out of anything proposed.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone sprouting crap suggesting we have less of a say when QM voting needs AT LEAST 15 countries AND 65% of the total population of our Europe to get something passed.

I will NOT be swayed by anyone suggesting I'm unpatriotic to support a yes vote - I love this island even with all it's problems but I also love being a European. Travelling across Europe has given me the comfortable feeling that people are mostly the same in things they want, food, love, happiness....
We are Irish citizens standing side by side with our neighbours for a common cause - the foundations the EU were built on and if the Treaty is ratified, this will include the Charter of Fundamental Human Rights - what's wrong with that?

I'm urging people to vote yes only because I believe it to be right.
Not because I'm being paid by foreign interests, not because I believe any of the lies, not because I am in any way looking out for anything but this Islands future.

I hope the future will be good - same as every European.
-Ed

Ireland's "future" does not rest in the hands of Europe- we make our own destiny like any independent country. The Lisbon Treaty sets the groundwork for the over militarisation of the union and moves it in a more federal direction (read the treaty if you think I am scaremongering- especially the articles about each member state having to progressively undertake to increase military spending). Lisbon is bad for this country and for those who waver I urge you to vote NO.

marco_polo

ben bedlam wrote: »

Ireland's "future" does not rest in the hands of Europe- we make our own destiny like any independent country. The Lisbon Treaty sets the groundwork for the over militarisation of the union and moves it in a more federal direction (read the treaty if you think I am scaremongering- especially the articles about each member state having to progressively undertake to increase military spending). Lisbon is bad for this country and for those who waver I urge you to vote NO.

Running Tally:
YES to Lisbon: 0

NO to Lisbon: 0

NO to imagined scary version of Lisbon: 1

smokingman

ben bedlam wrote: »

Ireland's "future" does not rest in the hands of Europe- we make our own destiny like any independent country. The Lisbon Treaty sets the groundwork for the over militarisation of the union and moves it in a more federal direction (read the treaty if you think I am scaremongering- especially the articles about each member state having to progressively undertake to increase military spending). Lisbon is bad for this country and for those who waver I urge you to vote NO.

I've actually read the thing (took me ages) and the bits I wasn't sure about, I re-read.

I find it laughable that you're telling me to read it when you obviously haven't as what you are describing is nowhere in the treaty, you sure you have the right one?

free-man

free-man wrote: »

Ha! It's pretty easy to re-open it see ----> here

Mods - any chance of getting the poll extended until Sat morning?

It'll be fun if anything, and it's very easy to do! Instructions above ^^