Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The Lisbon Treaty, Last Minute Poll!

Options
1235»

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    TheCoolerKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭TheCoolerKing


    smokingman wrote: »

    I will NOT be swayed by anyone sprouting crap suggesting we have less of a say when QM voting needs AT LEAST 15 countries AND 65% of the total population of our Europe to get something passed.

    -Ed


    And even if they dont get somthing passed they will probably just have another vote on the same thing a year down the line until they do ;)

    democratic right?


  • Options
    #123
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It's not something that could be changed under the simplified revision procedure, because it's not in Part Three TFEU. You really should have read the Treaty.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Hm.. so is the below statement from the referendum commission false? Does it not reference the two and a half year term in the treaty?

    "There will be a new post of President of the European Council. The President would be elected (by qualified majority) by the European Council for a two and a half year term which is renewable once. The President would chair and co-ordinate the European Council’s work. The Treaty would set out the powers and rules relating to the European Council."

    - From the Referendum Commission

    So for the record your saying that nothing in article 48 (simplified revision procedure or ordinary revision procedure) would allow the European Council to increase the powers or term of the President of the European Council by simple majority after ratification by all member states in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. As there is nothing in the constitution blocking this already this would not need to be put to a vote.


  • Options
    #124
    johnwillnot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭johnwillnot


    free-man wrote: »
    It has no voting right, legislative or executive power once the treaty is passed you mean.

    However a few months down the line this is easily changed via the "self amending" article 48 with no need for a referendum.. bingo -> EU President.

    I wonder if they'll change the name to EU president too... has a better ring to it.


    Excerpt from the herald.ie

    Among those thought to be most eagerly awaiting the result is former British Prime Minister Tony Blair who is hotly-tipped to take the Presidential position created in the Treaty.

    The likelihood of his appointment has grown legs, with French President Sarkozy thought to be a firm supporter.

    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/europes-eyes-are-on-us-as-we-go-to-lisbon-polls-1902823.html


  • Options
    #125
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    free-man wrote: »
    Hm.. so is the below statement from the referendum commission false? Does it not reference the two and a half year term in the treaty?

    "There will be a new post of President of the European Council. The President would be elected (by qualified majority) by the European Council for a two and a half year term which is renewable once. The President would chair and co-ordinate the European Council’s work. The Treaty would set out the powers and rules relating to the European Council."

    - From the Referendum Commission

    So for the record your saying that nothing in article 48 (simplified revision procedure or ordinary revision procedure) would allow the European Council to increase the powers or term of the President of the European Council by simple majority after ratification by all member states in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. As there is nothing in the constitution blocking this already this would not need to be put to a vote.

    The simplified revision procedure cannot be use to increase the competences of the union confessed on it in the treaties :)


  • Options
    #126
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    The simplified revision procedure cannot be use to increase the competences of the union confessed on it in the treaties :)
    Free-man wrote:
    So for the record your saying that nothing in article 48 (simplified revision procedure or ordinary revision procedure) would allow the European Council to increase the powers or term of the President of the European Council by simple majority after ratification by all member states in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. As there is nothing in the constitution blocking this already this would not need to be put to a vote.

    Ordinary revision procedure quoted from the treaty:

    The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.
    These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

    ... The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance
    with their respective constitutional requirements.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    free-man wrote: »
    Ordinary revision procedure quoted from the treaty:

    The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.
    These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

    ... The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance
    with their respective constitutional requirements.

    That's the ordinary revision procedure, it's the simplified one that's supposed to be self amending. They can use the ordinary revision procedure now. About 95% of Lisbon could have gone through without a referendum


  • Options
    #128
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    That's the ordinary revision procedure, it's the simplified one that's supposed to be self amending. They can use the ordinary revision procedure now. About 95% of Lisbon could have gone through without a referendum

    So allow me to translate. They can use existing powers to change the role / term of the President of the European council without going back to the Irish people.

    Or alternatively they can't. Which is it?


  • Options
    #129
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Treaty of Nice wrote:
    Article 48
    The government of any Member State or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties on which the Union is founded. If the Council, after consulting the European Parliament and, where appropriate, the Commission, delivers an opinion in favour of calling a conference of representatives of the governments of the
    Member States, the conference shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to those Treaties. The European Central
    Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area.

    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/dat/12002M/pdf/12002M_EN.pdf
    Treaty of Lisbon wrote:
    Ordinary revision procedure
    2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may
    submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia,
    serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These
    proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall
    be notified.
    3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts
    by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the
    European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national
    Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament
    and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional
    changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall
    adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the
    Member States as provided for in paragraph 4.
    The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European
    Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed
    amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a
    conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.
    4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by
    the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be
    made to the Treaties.
    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with
    their respective constitutional requirements.

    So the ordinary revision procedure is already in the Nice Treaty and is also now in the Lisbon Treaty. Any revisions under this procedue will require a referendum in the case of Ireland because that is what our Constitution calls for.
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    Simplified revision procedures
    6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may
    submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the
    Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the
    Union.
    The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the
    Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after
    consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case
    of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is
    approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.
    The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on
    the Union in the Treaties.

    So in summary they can't increase the powers of the President of the European Council through the ordinary procedue without it ratified by each member state (referendum in Irelands case), or they can't do it through the new simplified procedure as that cannot increase the Union's competence - which giving more power to the Council President would be.

    Unfortunately the new simplified procedure (or 'self-amending' clause) is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented aspects of the treaty


  • Options
    #130
    johnwillnot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭johnwillnot


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/dat/12002M/pdf/12002M_EN.pdf



    So the ordinary revision procedure is already in the Nice Treaty and is also now in the Lisbon Treaty. Any revisions under this procedue will require a referendum in the case of Ireland because that is what our Constitution calls for.



    So in summary they can't increase the powers of the President of the European Council through the ordinary procedue without it ratified by each member state (referendum in Irelands case), or they can't do it through the new simplified procedure as that cannot increase the Union's competence - which giving more power to the Council President would be.

    Unfortunately the new simplified procedure (or 'self-amending' clause) is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented aspects of the treaty

    They will find a way and we will have no say! I times of war, all bets are off and anything could happen. If you search Google, you will find tons of prominent websites talking about it. They all can't be wrong. It's looking like Tony Blair will be the first president of Europe if Lisbon is passed.


  • Options
    #131
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    johnwillnot wrote: »
    They will find a way and we will have no say! I times of war, all bets are off and anything could happen. If you search Google in english, you will find tons of prominent British websites talking about it. They all can't be wrong. It's looking like Tony Blair will be the first president of Europe if Lisbon is passed.

    FYP


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    johnwillnot wrote: »
    They will find a way and we will have no say! I times of war, all bets are off and anything could happen. If you search Google, you will find tons of prominent websites talking about it. They all can't be wrong. It's looking like Tony Blair will be the first president of Europe if Lisbon is passed.

    How will they find 'a way'?? Will they scribble a few hand written notes into the margins and say...but they were there all along?!?

    Show me the tons of prominent websites.

    Ireland's Liam Cosgrave was the first President of the European Council back in 1975......did you know that??

    Tony Blair was already the President of the European Council in the past.....TWICE in fact....did you know that??
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    6. The President of the European Council:
    (a) shall chair it and drive forward its work;
    (b) shall ensure the preparation and continuity of the work of the European Council in cooperation
    with the President of the Commission, and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council;
    (c) shall endeavour to facilitate cohesion and consensus within the European Council;
    (d) shall present a report to the European Parliament after each of the meetings of the
    European Council.
    The President of the European Council shall, at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external
    representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy, without
    prejudice to the powers of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
    The President of the European Council shall not hold a national office.

    Those are the 'powers' the role has......what is so big and scary there??


  • Options
    #133
    andrewdeerpark
    Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭andrewdeerpark


    Tony Blair done his bit for Ireland and the peace process would not be the worst choice for Ireland.


  • Options
    #134
    dny123456
    Closed Accounts Posts: 431 ✭✭dny123456


    I think it would be a great thing if he was.


  • Options
    #135
    johnwillnot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭johnwillnot


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    How will they find 'a way'?? Will they scribble a few hand written notes into the margins and say...but they were there all along?!?

    Show me the tons of prominent websites.

    Ireland's Liam Cosgrave was the first President of the European Council back in 1975......did you know that??

    Tony Blair was already the President of the European Council in the past.....TWICE in fact....did you know that??


    Those are the 'powers' the role has......what is so big and scary there??

    This is an new post with new powers.


  • Options
    #136
    USE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 68 ✭✭USE


    TheCoolerKing wrote: »
    And even if they dont get somthing passed they will probably just have another vote on the same thing a year down the line until they do ;)

    democratic right?
    1. EU has drawen a treaty
    2. Ireland has rejected it
    3. EU has analysed the reasons for such decision
    4. EU has provided additional conditions for Ireland, to better reflect their needs/concerns
    5. Ireland has a right for a vote on the new conditions of the treaty

    In democracy, this is called two way dialogue between the society and the government. But let me be clear here: you and people who give such claims like you did do not give a sh*t about democracy.

    Another example would be that the Treaty of Lisbon increases the powers of the directly elected EU institution - the Europarliament. Also the Treaty of Lisbon provides an ability for the EU citizens to participate in the EU law designing process. That would only increase the level of democracy, but you do not support the treaty therefore you do not support such positive changes.

    Even if there would be 10 referendums in Ireland it wouldn't be undemocratic until all of those referendums would represent some changes to better meet the concerns of the voters (and only if this condition is meet, but it is meet). The most important thing is that the people have a right to vote 'No' as much times as they feel necessary. Or to say it otherwise, as much times, as it will be necessary to achieve the conditions they feel acceptable and satisfying.

    Anyway, there won't be the 3rd referendum.


  • Options
    #137
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    johnwillnot wrote: »
    This is an new post with new powers.

    It increases the term to 2.5 years from 6 months, renewable once. The person in the role will not be a national Head of Government. Otherwise the function of the role is the same - the Swedish PM Fredrik Reinfeldt is the current President. Please show us these new 'powers'??? I have referenced the passage in the actual Treaty that outlines the actual 'powers'. Please back up your statements with facts please.


  • Options
    #138
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/treaties/dat/12002M/pdf/12002M_EN.pdf
    So the ordinary revision procedure is already in the Nice Treaty and is also now in the Lisbon Treaty. Any revisions under this procedue will require a referendum in the case of Ireland because that is what our Constitution calls for.

    So in summary they can't increase the powers of the President of the European Council through the ordinary procedue without it ratified by each member state (referendum in Irelands case)

    What it says is that it must be unanimous and in accordance with the constitution. I'm not sure where you get the impression that Ireland couldn't just agree with everyone and vote in the change of title , term or powers to create an EU President.

    Maybe you could point out where in the constitution is disallows this?


  • Options
    #139
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    free-man wrote: »
    What it says is that it must be unanimous and in accordance with the constitution. I'm not sure where you get the impression that Ireland couldn't just agree with everyone and vote in the change of title , term or powers to create an EU President.

    Maybe you could point out where in the constitution is disallows this?
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    Ireland could indeed agree but our constitutional requirements are for a referendum. So we would have to Vote in favour (and every other member state would have to ratify it as well) and if we did, no one could complain. The impression being made here (johnwillnot for example) is that the EU could just railroad through amendments without reference to anybody which is simply untrue.


  • Options
    #140
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    "An exit poll by Fine Gael suggests the Yes side, with 52 per cent, have just swung a victory over the No side. A source emphasised the figure was preliminary and is by no means definitive."

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1002/breaking1.htm

    No landslide "yes", if that's right.


  • Options
    #141
    Bandit12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Bandit12


    Well if that exit poll is right i'd be very worried if i was on the Yes side. That's a hell of a lot different from the "landslide victory" they expected. To close to call it looks.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Ireland could indeed agree but our constitutional requirements are for a referendum. So we would have to Vote in favour (and every other member state would have to ratify it as well) and if we did, no one could complain. The impression being made here (johnwillnot for example) is that the EU could just railroad through amendments without reference to anybody which is simply untrue.

    Why do you think it has to go to referendum? Of course if it was something like abortion or conscription it'd have to go to referendum but why would a change of term or title for the "EU President" have to go to a referendum?


  • Options
    #143
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    free-man wrote: »
    Why do you think it has to go to referendum? Of course if it was something like abortion or conscription it'd have to go to referendum but why would a change of term or title for the "EU President" have to go to a referendum?

    Why bother having a referendum now if it's possible to change the Treaty without the need for a referendum?? By the way the assertions being made in this thread are that mysterious new 'powers' will be given to the President of the European Council without reference to anybody....not just a simple name change of the role.


  • Options
    #144
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    By the way the assertions being made in this thread are that mysterious new 'powers' will be given to the President of the European Council without reference to anybody....not just a simple name change of the role.

    So you agree that the title of the role can be changed? What else can be changed or does it stop with the title?


  • Options
    #145
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    free-man wrote: »
    So you agree that the title of the role can be changed? What else can be changed or does it stop with the title?

    Mmmmm did I say that? I don't think so!! Please re-read the post sir. You have absolutely no facts/evidence etc. to back up your assertions. At the risk of repeating myself:
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    Do you deny that an amendment to the EU Treaties requires an Irish referendum?


  • Options
    #146
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Do you deny that an amendment to the EU Treaties requires an Irish referendum?

    It only requires a referendum if it conflicts with our constitution as this would not conflict then it would not require a referendum.

    As has been said many times before by the yes side, A LOT of the treaty could be passed in the dáil without a referendum. I'll dig out the posts if you'd like.


  • Options
    #147
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    free-man wrote: »
    It only requires a referendum if it conflicts with our constitution as this would not conflict then it would not require a referendum.

    As has been said many times before by the yes side, A LOT of the treaty could be passed in the dáil without a referendum. I'll dig out the posts if you'd like.

    No comment so. Grand I'm getting sick of this thread too.


  • Options
    #148
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    free-man wrote: »
    So you agree that the title of the role can be changed? What else can be changed or does it stop with the title?

    The title of the role cannot be changed without a full treaty, nor can the duties. The only parts of the treaties that can be changed under Article 48's simplified revision procedure are voting arrangements and Part 3 of the TFEU - neither of those cover the role or duties of the President of the European Council.

    Therefore, nothing in the role can be changed without an Irish referendum.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


Advertisement