The most respected nation in the EU

Rb

CCCP^, I've asked twice for just a brief, factual, treaty based reason as to why you're voting no. Your failure to provide one can only lead one to assume you don't have one, in which case you might want to re-consider your stance on the Treaty.

vinylbomb

CCCP^ wrote: »

Not just go and hold the referendum again until they get the answer right.

Firstly, its not the same document that is being voted on. So its not re-holding the referendum.



They used the best means they had to try and filter responses from the public.
You suggest vague terms like "some sort of forum". Sometimes I think even if they did poll everyone individually for their concerns it wouldnt be enough to please the NO vote.

namloc1980

CCCP^ wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

Seems we used the same exact page.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3954327.stm

Just so the figures on wikipedia weren't made up, I checked around, and they seem to be right.

Basically what I did was, I found the percentages of people who voted No in each country, and then found out how many people that really was. There was an overwhelmingly No vote in Holland, a decent No in France.

While Spain had a good Yes victory, it had a terrible turnout. Luxembourg is a very small country, so it's kind of peanuts really. If more people voted Yes, then why wasn't it passed in more than Spain and Luxembourg?

why didn't you just find....you know... the actual results. The figures given here on this thread are correct...have no doubt sir...more ppl voted yes.

procure11

namloc1980 wrote: »

They clarify the contents of the Treaty and are legally binding which has been discussed at length on this forum.

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

prinz

CCCP^ wrote: »

Basically what I did was, I found the percentages of people who voted No in each country, and then found out how many people that really was. There was an overwhelmingly No vote in Holland, a decent No in France.

So you multiplied the percetage vote by the population? Either way it's wrong. The figures are there to be seen, see the French government site, the Luxembourg government site... are they wrong are they?

CCCP^ wrote: »

While Spain had a good Yes victory, it had a terrible turnout. Luxembourg is a very small country, so it's kind of peanuts really. If more people voted Yes, then why wasn't it passed in more than Spain and Luxembourg?

Are you familiar with the concept of numbers? Add them up and see.

P. Breathnach

procure11 wrote: »

One simple question and I honestly want a straight answer.

The Irish have been given guarantees that neccesitated the vote later today,
Are these guarantees included in the treaty we are voting on tommorrow?

1. We are not voting on a treaty tomorrow (or even later today); we are voting on an amendment to our constitution.
2. The amendment will enable us to ratify the Lisbon Treaty.
3. The guarantees are linked to the treaty in the sense that once it is ratified, the guarantees take effect. In effect, they are bundled together.

Sir Oxman

procure11 wrote: »

One simple question and I honestly want a straight answer.

The Irish have been given guarantees that neccesitated the vote later today,
Are these guarantees included in the treaty we are voting on tommorrow?

No.

vinylbomb

procure11 wrote: »

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

Incorrect. Simple anwser is yes.

prinz

procure11 wrote: »

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

Essentially you are not voting on the Treaty you ae voting on the amendment to our Constitution that allows the Government to agree to the guarantees and ratify the Lisbon Treaty. You are voting to accept those guarantees as presented.

Sir Oxman

namloc1980 wrote: »

why didn't you just find....you know... the actual results. The figures given here on this thread are correct...have no doubt sir...more ppl voted yes.

That would be like last year here, more people voted no.

Sam Vimes

gambiaman wrote: »

See, you say the Irish people explained why, I don't see it that way.

Why then would a sovereign govt ( I presume, compos mentis) go and get 'legal' guarantees to offset things that don't even appear in the treaty in the first place? Doesn't that embarrass you? It will on Saturday.

Why would they do it? Because massive amounts of people believed all this bullsh!t and it looks like even with the guarantees they still believe it! It's embarrassing that so many of my countrymen have been fooled so badly as to believe all this crap.

gambiaman wrote: »

You are accepting without equivocation, the reasons the govt have told you why we (the majority in June 2008) voted No.

I don't.

And this is another reason. You accusing three independent survey companies, all of whom found similar results and none of whom were under the control of the Irish government of corruption. It's paranoid!

And it doesn't even make any sense. If the government were planning to have a referendum and as a pretense they made up some fake reasons and pretended to address them, then the second referendum couldn't result in anything but another more resounding NO because they deliberately didn't address anyone's issues. It would be an expensive exercise in futility

prinz

procure11 wrote: »

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

Essentially you are not voting on the Treaty you are voting on the amendment to our Constitution that allows the Government to agree to the guarantees and ratify the Lisbon Treaty. You are voting to accept those guarantees as presented.

namloc1980

gambiaman wrote: »

That would be like last year here, more people voted no.

correct. not disagreeing with you however CCCP has just made up figures off the top of his head.

AtomicHorror

procure11 wrote: »

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

Technically we're not voting on the treaty at all. We're voting on an amendment to the constitution. So if you want to make the argument that the guarantees are not relevant because we're not voting on the guarantees or somesuch, then the treaty is the same story.

Sir Oxman

prinz wrote: »

Essentially you are not voting on the Treaty you ae voting on the amendment to our Constitution that allows the Government to agree to the guarantees and ratify the Lisbon Treaty. You are voting to accept those guarantees as presented.

Incorrect, we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty as is 2008.

Sam Vimes

procure11 wrote: »

Essentially the simple answer is no...they are not included in the treaty being voted on?

This is the main thing that will embarrass the Irish people because it completely misunderstands the nature of the guarantees. They're binding and they come into force the same moment that Lisbon does. Get over it

Sam Vimes

gambiaman wrote: »

Incorrect, we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty as is 2008.

No we're not. The treaty in 2008 reduced the size of the commission and this one doesn't because the rule to reduce it will not be invoked. Please educate yourself before you embarrass your country

imeddyhobbs

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why would they do it? Because massive amounts of people believed all this bullsh!t and it looks like even with the guarantees they still believe it! It's embarrassing that so many of my countrymen have been fooled so badly as to believe all this crap.


And this is another reason. You accusing three independent survey companies, all of whom found similar results and none of whom were under the control of the Irish government of corruption. It's paranoid!

And it doesn't even make any sense. If the government were planning to have a referendum and as a pretense they made up some fake reasons and pretended to address them, then the second referendum couldn't result in anything but another more resounding NO because they deliberately didn't address anyone's issues. It would be an expensive exercise in futility

The poll here says the no side will win...check it out

procure11

P. Breathnach wrote: »

1. We are not voting on a treaty tomorrow (or even later today); we are voting on an amendment to our constitution.
2. The amendment will enable us to ratify the Lisbon Treaty.
3. The guarantees are linked to the treaty in the sense that once it is ratified, the guarantees take effect. In effect, they are bundled together.

Are you for real?

Basically we are voting to make changes to the Irish constitution..can you elaborate please!

Sam Vimes

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

The poll here says the no side will win...check it out

An internet poll does not use the polling methods that gave the Millward Brown survey an accuracy of 2-3%. They do this thing for a living and the maths are unquestionable....unless you really really don't want to believe them

AtomicHorror

gambiaman wrote: »

Incorrect, we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty as is 2008.

Plus the guarantees. They exist, but mean nothing without ratification of the treaty. Which means nothing without the amendment to the constitution. Which happens if enough people tick a box. And that will require people to pick up a pen. But first they'll need to get to the polling station. Once they get out of bed.

Oh wow, all the connected things.

Sir Oxman

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why would they do it? Because massive amounts of people believed all this bullsh!t and it looks like even with the guarantees they still believe it! It's embarrassing that so many of my countrymen have been fooled so badly as to believe all this crap.


And this is another reason. You accusing three independent survey companies, all of whom found similar results and none of whom were under the control of the Irish government of corruption. It's paranoid!

And it doesn't even make any sense. If the government were planning to have a referendum and as a pretense they made up some fake reasons and pretended to address them, then the second referendum couldn't result in anything but another more resounding NO because they deliberately didn't address anyone's issues. It would be an expensive exercise in futility

I am accusing no-one.
You yourself have said none of the guarantees, as such, even had a clause in the Treaty (you get my drift, it's late)

Last years No vote was not about tax, abortion and neutrality no matter the posters and campaigns just as this years is not about jobs cos that is simply a lie.

You will find out Saturday that Ireland does not do Lisbon (lovely city, recommended by P Breathnach and I did love it!)

Good night! (but not good luck!)

prinz

gambiaman wrote: »

Incorrect, we are voting on the Lisbon Treaty as is 2008.

Incorrect we don't vote on treaties we vote on amendments to Bunreacht na hÉireann.

Yep just checked voting card, definitely the 28th Amendment to the Constitution Bill 2009

namloc1980

procure11 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Basically we are voting to make changes to the Irish constitution..can you elaborate please!

Technically we are voting for an amendment to the Constitution that would allow the Dail to ratify Lisbon. In reality we are voting to accept or reject Lisbon.

Sam Vimes

procure11 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Basically we are voting to make changes to the Irish constitution..can you elaborate please!

We vote to amend the constitution to allow the government to ratify the treaty, which they then do. They have already ratified the guarantees but the guarantees specify that they do not come into force until Lisbon does because that wouldn't make any sense.

procure11

Sam Vimes wrote: »

An internet poll does not use the polling methods that gave the Millward Brown survey an accuracy of 2-3%. They do this thing for a living and the maths are unquestionable....unless you really really don't want to believe them

oh come off it...1 in 2 people know that those millward b survey crap is inaccurate and most probably commercially and politically motivated.

Sir Oxman

prinz wrote: »

Incorrect we don't vote on treaties we vote on amendments to Bunreacht na hÉireann.

Correct.
We are voting on the Lssbon Treaty Amendment to Bunreacht (sans guarantees) and you know it.

AtomicHorror

procure11 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Basically we are voting to make changes to the Irish constitution..can you elaborate please!

If we weren't amending the constitution, there'd actually be no vote at all afaik. Were there a way to ratify the treaty without that step the government would be able to do it themselves. Representing us like a real elected body.

prinz

procure11 wrote: »

Are you for real?

Basically we are voting to make changes to the Irish constitution..can you elaborate please!

We amend the Constitution to allow our government to ratify the Treaty and the guarantees on our behalf.

AtomicHorror

gambiaman wrote: »

Correct.
We are voting on the Lssbon Treaty Amendment to Bunreacht (sans guarantees) and you know it.

That's rubbish and you know it.