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The most respected nation in the EU

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    #152
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    The No side don't need luck when they have ignorance, anti-establishment rebels and general nutjobs on their side :)


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    #153
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Húrin wrote: »
    Article 28D - do you think we might be able to get them to pull it out?

    Why? We are already a member of the European Defence Agency? Does it matter if it is within the confines of the EU or not?

    Even neutral armies need equipment.


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    #154
    3greenrizla's
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭3greenrizla's


    OK... I am finally at the end of this thread, & it has gone waaaayyy off topic.

    could anyone please point me in the direction of any Europe wide poll's? I feel it important that we are the only ones with a say in the matter of the treaty and I want to take the opinions of all my fellow Europeans into account when I make my decision later today, not just those who had a chance to vote on the constitution.


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    #155
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    3greenrizla's wrote: »
    OK... I am finally at the end of this thread, & it has gone waaaayyy off topic.

    could anyone please point me in the direction of any Europe wide poll's? I feel it important that we are the only ones with a say in the matter of the treaty and I want to take the opinions of all my fellow Europeans into account when I make my decision later today, not just those who had a chance to vote on the constitution.

    Try the European elections. Around 80-90% of the voters went for pro-Lisbon/pro-EU candidates.


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    #156
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    3greenrizla's wrote: »
    OK... I am finally at the end of this thread, & it has gone waaaayyy off topic.

    could anyone please point me in the direction of any Europe wide poll's? I feel it important that we are the only ones with a say in the matter of the treaty and I want to take the opinions of all my fellow Europeans into account when I make my decision later today, not just those who had a chance to vote on the constitution.

    Some opnion polls from last year, this is all I could find

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/french_would_support_lisbon_treaty_in_vote/

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/lisbon_treaty_backed_in_czech_republic/

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31429/support_for_lisbon_treaty_drops_in_poland

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31064/germans_would_ratify_lisbon_treaty_in_vote

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31041/lisbon_treaty_vote_would_fail_in_britain


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    #157
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Rb wrote: »
    The No side don't need luck when they have ignorance, anti-establishment rebels and general nutjobs on their side :)

    is that the bloody best you can come up with. all your posts so far have been insults to the no camp. i'm amazed you are still here.

    good luck tomorrow on the vote. 56% no.


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    #158
    imeddyhobbs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭imeddyhobbs


    3greenrizla's wrote: »
    OK... I am finally at the end of this thread, & it has gone waaaayyy off topic.

    could anyone please point me in the direction of any Europe wide poll's? I feel it important that we are the only ones with a say in the matter of the treaty and I want to take the opinions of all my fellow Europeans into account when I make my decision later today, not just those who had a chance to vote on the constitution.
    This is how bad things get,this thread was also started by myself
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055691974


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    #159
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    3greenrizla's wrote: »
    ... could anyone please point me in the direction of any Europe wide poll's? I feel it important that we are the only ones with a say in the matter of the treaty and I want to take the opinions of all my fellow Europeans into account when I make my decision later today, not just those who had a chance to vote on the constitution.

    I suspect that the large majority of our fellow-Europeans are not giving Lisbon any thought at all. Mainly because they are not worried by it.

    I was in France last week, and spent time with French friends who have an interest in politics and an interest in Ireland. They knew we had a referendum coming up, but told me that it gets very little attention in the French media.

    So, if you want to reflect the views of our European partners, perhaps the way to do it is to abstain. Or perhaps you should decide your vote on the basis of what you think best for Ireland and for Europe.


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    #160
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    zenno wrote: »
    is that the bloody best you can come up with. all your posts so far have been insults to the no camp. i'm amazed you are still here.

    good luck tomorrow on the vote. 56% no.
    It's true though, almost 50% of the No vote last time was because people weren't arsed educating themselves on it, then the rest comprised of reasons that didn't even have footing in the treaty itself, anti-Government feeling and crackpot theories involving new world orders and high priest lizard men.

    When you have that behind you, hitting the polls, you do not need luck!

    So therefore the statement is indeed true.

    What exactly are you expecting at this stage? I'm not trying to convince anyone this late, and I'm certainly not addressing the same issues that the No side have banged on about, seen debunked and then banged on about again in the form of new accounts over the past few months. So yes, if I get to highlight the madness that is the No campaign whilst trying to get them to prove one, single point regarding the treaty, then that's what I'll do.


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    #161
    3greenrizla's
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭3greenrizla's


    View wrote: »
    Try the European elections. Around 80-90% of the voters went for pro-Lisbon/pro-EU candidates.

    Not really relevant though, most major political parties support the treaty here, yet most politicians are unfortunately voted in here because they promise to fill in the pot hole down the road.
    marco_polo wrote: »
    Some opnion polls from last year, this is all I could find

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/french_would_support_lisbon_treaty_in_vote/

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/lisbon_treaty_backed_in_czech_republic/

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31429/support_for_lisbon_treaty_drops_in_poland

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31064/germans_would_ratify_lisbon_treaty_in_vote

    http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/31041/lisbon_treaty_vote_would_fail_in_britain

    Thanks, exactly what I was looking for, even though it does look quite tight either way and is not much help.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I suspect that the large majority of our fellow-Europeans are not giving Lisbon any thought at all. Mainly because they are not worried by it.

    I suspect the same although I think it is because they do not have a say in the matter.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    So, if you want to reflect the views of our European partners, perhaps the way to do it is to abstain. Or perhaps you should decide your vote on the basis of what you think best for Ireland and for Europe.

    Of course I am going to vote on what I think is best for Ireland/Europe, I feel it is important to remember that we are the only one's with a say & the opinions of my fellow Europeans (those without a say) rightly or wrongly have a small influence in the way i think I should vote.


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    #162
    imeddyhobbs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭imeddyhobbs


    Will we be the most respected nation in the EU if we vote no?


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    #163
    vanla sighs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭vanla sighs


    Rb wrote: »
    If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

    Hmmmm, maybe QMV? Unelected President and Foreign Minister? Upholding the democratic will of the Irish people who already rejected the Lisbon Treaty? There's lots more but I couldn't be bothered in wasting my time. :) Oh btw, people don't have to give reasons as to why the vote one way or the other.......people are free to vote for WHATEVER reasons they so wish....


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    #164
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    vanla sighs wrote: »
    Hmmmm, maybe QMV?
    Please explain how QMV works, how or if it's currently applied, which areas it will be applied to (or is it all areas), if it can be used for the simplified revision procedure and anything else you know about it
    vanla sighs wrote: »
    Unelected President
    Nope
    vanla sighs wrote: »
    and Foreign Minister?
    The position is not called a foreign minister and we have a veto so the only foreign policy is unanimous foreign policy. What's the problem?
    vanla sighs wrote: »
    Upholding the democratic will of the Irish people who already rejected the Lisbon Treaty?
    They rejected abortion, taxation, loss of neutrality, conscription, the loss of a commissioner and Fianna Fail. They have yet to give their opinion on the Lisbon treaty, kind of similar to yourself who thinks it creates an unelected president when it doesn't
    vanla sighs wrote: »
    Oh btw, people don't have to give reasons as to why the vote one way or the other.......people are free to vote for WHATEVER reasons they so wish....

    Yes that is their right but it's a very stupid thing to do because those people will never have their problems addressed. To bring up an old analogy of mine it's like showing up at the Dail with a load of blank placards and shouting

    What do we want?

    NOT TELLING YOU

    When do we want it?

    NOT TELLING YOU


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    #165
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    why didn't you just find....you know... the actual results. The figures given here on this thread are correct...have no doubt sir...more ppl voted yes.

    And yet France and Holland voted No? Explain to me how in your mind more people can vote Yes yet the treaty was defeated in two countries.


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    #166
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    CCCP^ wrote: »
    And yet France and Holland voted No? Explain to me how in your mind more people can vote Yes yet the treaty was defeated in two countries.

    Because countries != people. In order to count how many people voted one way or the other, you'll find that you need to count people.

    For example, Ireland = 1 country. No voters at last referendum >1, and Yes voters at last referendum > 1 also.

    Hope that helps.

    amused,
    Scofflaw


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    #167
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    CCCP^ wrote: »
    And yet France and Holland voted No? Explain to me how in your mind more people can vote Yes yet the treaty was defeated in two countries.
    it was defeated in 2 countries...not denying that. it was also approved in 2 countries. adding up all the yes votes and all the no votes from the 4 countries reveals more people voted yes than no as a whole. simple really. perhaps you should invest in a calculator!


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    #168
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    3greenrizla's wrote: »
    Not really relevant though, most major political parties support the treaty here, yet most politicians are unfortunately voted in here because they promise to fill in the pot hole down the road.

    Totally relevant. The central thesis behind this argument is that the electorate in the other member states all feel desperately deprived by not having referenda and all eagerly waiting to vote no.

    The problem with that theory is when we do have elections theoverwhelming majority of the electorate of the other member states:
    a) do NOT rush out to organise pro-referenda and/or anti-Lisbon/anti-EU parties,
    b) do NOT vote for parties that support these policies, and,
    c) DO vote for parties that are pro-Lisbon/pro-EU and who do not support the idea of referenda.

    Ergo, either:
    a) the electorate of the other states are stupid and/or vote randomly - not seeing a link between what they vote for and what they get (a difficult case to make since most EU states tend to vote on ideological lines), or,
    b) the "they all want referenda and hate Lisbon/the EU" argument is nonsense.


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    #169
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    imeddyhobbs wrote: »
    The most respected nation in the EU,thats what Ireland will be if a no vote is the outcome of Lisbon 2

    If we vote yes then we will be known as a nation that has no backbone ,We voted no already,Lets do that again or let them keep walking all over us.

    I agree as someone who has lived and worked throughout Europe, the feedback from other EU members to the last No vote was overwhelmingly positive!


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    #170
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    View wrote: »
    b) the "they all want referenda and hate Lisbon/the EU" argument is nonsense.
    Both the French and German people appear to want referendums.


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    #171
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Both the French and German people appear to want referendums.

    Got anything up to date? Because I know in both countries that Lisbon is a non-issue.


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    #172
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Not sure if you're aware of this prinz but since your performance on the other thread, I can't read them anymore, just to save effort. ;)


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    #173
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Not sure if you're aware of this prinz but since your performance on the other thread, I can't read them anymore. ;)

    Perhaps I underestimated you. You actually have the making of a fine politician, ignoring any and all dissenting voices I see.


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    #174
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    Rb wrote: »
    If we vote No, we'll be the laughing stock of the EU when we're asked what it was in the treaty we didn't like, and we have nothing to say.

    if we vote yes what will people say they liked about the treaty?


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    #175
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    if we vote yes what will people say they liked about the treaty?

    Oh, probably the upgrades in democracy, the charter of rights, the increases in transparency, the commitment to fighting climate change, the improved subsidiarity arrangements....depends what they liked, I suppose.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #176
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    if we vote yes what will people say they liked about the treaty?

    For the most part it's a book keeping exercise, how excited could anyone get about that. Of course that does beg the question as to why the No campaigners are getting so excited, personally I have no clue.

    (or what scofflaw says above)


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    #177
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Both the French and German people appear to want referendums.

    So you are saying the French and German people are stupid?

    They had elections less than 4 months ago. They had the perfect opportunity to organise pro-referenda parties, campaign for referenda and vote for politicans and parties who favoured them. They did not do so. Ergo, they do not want them.

    Hell, in France, they even had Libertas standing with all their guff about referenda and its plan to win all 1,000,001 seats in the European Parliament.


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    #178
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    View wrote: »
    So you are saying the French and German people are stupid?
    No, I'm saying they want a referendum on the issue. Did you read those links? I think one of them is in German but you can see 70% in there all right.

    Don't take my word for it.


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    #179
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    No, I'm saying they want a referendum on the issue. Did you read those links? I think one of them is in German but you can see 70% in there all right.

    Don't take my word for it.

    But they just re-elected pro-Lisbon party's, the same party's that have ratified or are going to ratify the treaty. The French will protest about the time of day and where are the protests? Do you see the difference between someone's opinion and what has happened in reality?


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    #180
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    meglome wrote: »
    Do you see the difference between someone's opinion and what has happened in reality?
    I see the difference between someone's opinion and legitimate polls. At least I assume they are legitimate, I don't know the agencies that ran them. Meanwhile, as those with their toes very much in the political waters are aware, most voters have other things on their minds.

    Doesn't change the poll results however.


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    #181
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Oh, probably the upgrades in democracy, the charter of rights, the increases in transparency, the commitment to fighting climate change, the improved subsidiarity arrangements....depends what they liked, I suppose.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    No, I think alot of people are voting yes because they think we'll get kicked out of the EU or the recession will get worse if we vote no.

    Do you think your statement is what most of the yes voters understand as their reason for a yes vote?


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