To the NO side .....

free-man · 02-10-2009 6:58pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

What, that the Prime Minister of the UK didn't have the powers to walk the Uk into an unjust war?

He did actually, that's how he was able to do it?

Scofflaw wrote: »

Then be comfortable, since the bits of the Treaty that can be changed by the simplified revision procedure in Article 48 don't include that job description.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I've queried this in detail in another thread, you'll get an email about it shortly.

Scofflaw · 02-10-2009 7:02pm

free-man wrote: »

He did actually, that's how he was able to do it?

That's right - because in the UK, power is vested in the Parliament and government, and the Prime Minister is head of the government. The UK Prime Minister has, therefore, an enormous amount of legislative power, and a similarly enormous amount of executive power.

The President of the European Council, on the other hand, won't be head of it but chairperson, won't have any legislative powers at all, won;t have any executive powers at all. Their only function is chairing the meetings - they're not in charge in any way. They won't even have the powers the Ceann Chomairle has.

cordially,
Scofflaw

free-man · 02-10-2009 7:08pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's right - because in the UK, power is vested in the Parliament and government, and the Prime Minister is head of the government. The UK Prime Minister has, therefore, an enormous amount of legislative power, and a similarly enormous amount of executive power.

I don't think anyone is denying the power he had. You seem confused. People are condenming what he did with that power.

Scofflaw wrote: »

The President of the European Council, on the other hand, won't be head of it but chairperson, won't have any legislative powers at all, won;t have any executive powers at all. Their only function is chairing the meetings - they're not in charge in any way. They won't even have the powers the Ceann Chomairle has.

cordially,
Scofflaw

For now.. which could be changed in the future using the powers they already have under 'Ordinary revision procedure' from article 48.. right?

drunkmonkey · 02-10-2009 7:50pm

the die is cast, went with the no, only reason being tony blair.

makes no difference anyway, the house was split 2 no and 3 yes..

yes will win I bet, I just didnt want them to win by 2 much...:)

3 more years of finna fail with an unelected taoiseach, god help us all!!!

tattoodublin · 02-10-2009 7:51pm

Blair will be EU president with 3 weeks of a yes vote

drunkmonkey · 02-10-2009 7:56pm

and hopefully he's assassinated by week 4 so we can start pimping mary r

prinz · 02-10-2009 7:58pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

the die is cast, went with the no, only reason being tony blair.

tattoodublin wrote: »

Blair will be EU president with 3 weeks of a yes vote

There is no such post as "EU President"...... the post is President of the European Council, and I bet you (A) couldn't name who the President is now or (B) never knew there was such a post.

PopeBuckfastXVI · 02-10-2009 8:04pm

tattoodublin wrote: »

Blair will be EU president with 3 weeks of a yes vote

We'll see you back on this thread 3 weeks from Monday if the vote is 'yes' so?

aaaaargh · 02-10-2009 8:04pm

its a yes victory the pencils and lack of garda presence at the polling stations said it all!

Rb · 02-10-2009 8:06pm

Not satisfied with the posts outlining the reality of the situation you've already received on your point in other threads, tattoodublin? Or is it a case of if you believe it enough, it might just be true?

prinz · 02-10-2009 8:07pm

aaaaargh wrote: »

its a yes victory the pencils and lack of garda presence at the polling stations said it all!

I have never used anything other than a pencil to vote in this country. Plus there was a garda where I voted.

Rb · 02-10-2009 8:07pm

aaaaargh wrote: »

its a yes victory the pencils and lack of garda presence at the polling stations said it all!

At the European and Local elections not so long ago, my polling station had pencils. Likewise, last referendum on Lisbon the station only had pencils.

If you wish to discuss flaky conspiracy theories, there is a dedicated forum for it.

MikeC101 · 02-10-2009 8:08pm

aaaaargh wrote: »

its a yes victory the pencils and lack of garda presence at the polling stations said it all!

There was no garda presence at my local polling station for any referendum / election I can remember, and it was always pencils used.

But then, you're not actually interested in discussing this are you....

aaaaargh · 02-10-2009 8:11pm

there is allway a garda presence at voting stations lads and to be honest i cant remember if it was always a pencil but if it was surly a pen should be used its easy to chainge pencil its a poor choice and a joke

tattoodublin · 02-10-2009 8:13pm

Unfortunaley, its not what "I" believe is true, I had no idea about Blair's pending position until i read it online just this morning, a search of "Tony Blair EU president Lisbon treaty" Brought up a frighteneing amount of other articles and news that concurred. Just stating what I've read. Personally, I really don't trust the whole Lisbon situation, why are the EU bigwigs essentially trying to force this down our throats? As per conspiracy theories hahaha I dont think lack of Garda's and pancils is much to worry about, :eek: How about essential for military unification of Europe as a first step towards a goal of a joint US / EU invasion of Iran? hahaha now THATS a conspiracy theory

prinz · 02-10-2009 8:16pm

tattoodublin wrote: »

Unfortunaley, its not what "I" believe is true, I had no idea about Blair's pending position until i read it online just this morning, a search of "Tony Blair EU president Lisbon treaty"

There is no pending position for Blair. It's unlikely he'd even get the job as he's not all that popular with the leaders in Europe. Plus he's been the President of the European Council before and the sky didn't fall in, and the EU didn't invade anyone.

MikeC101 · 02-10-2009 8:16pm

aaaaargh wrote: »

there is allway a garda presence at voting stations lads

So I'm telling you that there has never been a Garda in my local station when I've been there, and you're telling me there has? I just never noticed them? They have great camo gear, to blend into the wall of a tiny prefab.

aaaaargh · 02-10-2009 8:19pm

lol well there allways at mine maybe just my neighourhood but fair enough its prob for the best bprob would rob some vote hold em for ransom or somethinb

free-man · 02-10-2009 10:29pm

prinz wrote: »

There is no such post as "EU President"...... the post is President of the European Council, and I bet you (A) couldn't name who the President is now or (B) never knew there was such a post.

Agreed, but the title or term could be changed by unanimous agreement under article 48 without the need to go to the Irish people.

namloc1980 · 02-10-2009 10:44pm

free-man wrote: »

Agreed, but the title or term could be changed by unanimous agreement under article 48 without the need to go to the Irish people.

Under what part of the article exactly?? Changing the term/name of a post is hardly earth-shattering stuff. Plus to say so is just speculation at this point. There is no proof to say they want to call it EU president or anything like that.

free-man · 02-10-2009 11:18pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Under what part of the article exactly?? Changing the term/name of a post is hardly earth-shattering stuff. Plus to say so is just speculation at this point. There is no proof to say they want to call it EU president or anything like that.

Ordinary revision procedure
2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.
These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.
3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts
by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President
of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives
of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 4.
The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of
reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.
4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties. The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

I've underlined the last bit about in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

Maybe you could let me know where in our constitution it is forbidden to change the title,term, responsibilities or powers of the President of the European Council?

namloc1980 · 02-10-2009 11:27pm

free-man wrote: »

Ordinary revision procedure
2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.
These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.
3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts
by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President
of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives
of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 4.
The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of
reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.
4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties. The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

I've underlined the last bit about in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

Maybe you could let me know where in our constitution it is forbidden to change the title,term, responsibilities or powers of the President of the European Council?

Giving more power to the President of the Council would involve transfer of competence to the EU. As it stands even before we give him mysterious 'powers':

Lisbon Treaty wrote:

The President of the European Council shall, at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external
representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy,

.

Crotty v An Taoiseach Supreme Court decided that the Government of this country could not ratify an EU treaty where power relating to foreign affairs was being transferred to the EU, without reference to the people. Any power given to the President of the Euro Council would come under this decision.

free-man · 02-10-2009 11:37pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Giving more power to the President of the Council would involve transfer of competence to the EU. As it stands even before we give him mysterious 'powers': .

Crotty v An Taoiseach Supreme Court decided that the Government of this country could not ratify an EU treaty where power relating to foreign affairs was being transferred to the EU, without reference to the people. Any power given to the President of the Euro Council would come under this decision.

Whether that's true or not I can't say without valid, independent legal council.

But it seems that they would be able to change the title and the term.

So if the UK reports are to be believe we could have Tony Blair as Eu President for 5 years.

namloc1980 · 02-10-2009 11:44pm

free-man wrote: »

Whether that's true or not I can't say without valid, independent legal council.

But it seems that they would be able to change the title and the term.

So if the UK reports are to be believe we could have Tony Blair as Eu President for 5 years.

Title and term....hardly earth-shattering as I said and you can't prove to me that they could even do that without a referendum.

Indeed we could have Tony Blair as President of the European Council for 5 years. So what?

free-man · 02-10-2009 11:47pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Title and term....hardly earth-shattering as I said and you can't prove to me that they could even do that without a referendum.

Indeed we could have Tony Blair as President of the European Council for 5 years. So what?

We can make this a lot easier.

Would you be for Tony Blair as EU President (renamed) or against Tony Blair?

I know a few other yes posters seem to think 'so what' if he is.

namloc1980 · 02-10-2009 11:52pm

free-man wrote: »

We can make this a lot easier.

Would you be for Tony Blair as EU President (renamed) or against Tony Blair?

I know a few other yes posters seem to think 'so what' if he is.

I have no major issue with the man as President of the European Council (actual title) or as "EU President" (conspiracy theory title). I don't agree at all with his stance over Iraq but he did do great work in Northen Ireland. I think he could be an effective President of the Council. Remember he'll have no legislative or executive power.

free-man · 02-10-2009 11:59pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have no major issue with the man as President of the European Council (actual title) or as "EU President" (conspiracy theory title). I don't agree at all with his stance over Iraq but he did do great work in Northen Ireland. I think he could be an effective President of the Council. Remember he'll have no legislative or executive power.

So you'd be in favour of a man who led an illegal war based on lies of weapons of mass destruction and who still won't admit it.

I've heard it before, 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction', the "EU president" will have no influence on world events

Your on the yes camp? Just wanted to clarify.

prinz · 03-10-2009 12:01am

free-man wrote: »

I've heard it before, 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction', the "EU president" will have no influence on world events
Your on the yes camp? Just wanted to clarify.

Blair has admitted that the info on Iraqi WMD was false.

free-man · 03-10-2009 12:02am

prinz wrote: »

Blair has admitted that the info on Iraqi WMD was false.

Has he admitted that it was an illegal war?

namloc1980 · 03-10-2009 12:11am

free-man wrote: »

So you'd be in favour of a man who led an illegal war based on lies of weapons of mass destruction and who still won't admit it.

I've heard it before, 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction', the "EU president" will have no influence on world events

Your on the yes camp? Just wanted to clarify.

Iraq had no WMD (did I say otherwise somewhere - please show me where??).

The "EU President" does not exist now and it won't under Lisbon. Blair told porkies over WMD but calling him a liar, while you insist there is such a thing as 'EU President' is calling the kettle black.

To the NO side .....

Comments