At least be Honest

Dozen Wicked Words

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Warfi

dooferoaks wrote: »

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What's yo problem mister?

Dozen Wicked Words

Warfi wrote: »

What's yo problem mister?

You obviously haven't had the misfortune to plough through at least 100 pages of this crap on the Politics forum. Will achieve feck all, if fact why isn't this bollacks on the Politics forum.


Public Service this, Private Sector that, Big Business this, Union Leaders that. He's at fault because of this, she's at fault because of that.

No-one is going to change their minds.

I have a furrowed brow in AH, and that's just not right.

Warfi

dooferoaks wrote: »

You obviously haven't had the misfortune to plough through at least 100 pages of this crap on the Politics forum. Will achieve feck all, if fact why isn't this bollacks on the Politics forum.


Public Service this, Private Sector that, Big Business this, Union Leaders that. He's at fault because of this, she's at fault because of that.

No-one is going to change their minds.

I have a furrowed brow in AH, and that's just not right.

I know what you mean...never the twain shall meet.

God knows why I thought my ranting would achieve anything!:rolleyes::)



(just planting little seeds...)

Boskowski

antodeco wrote: »

In fairness, most doctors and nurses (public sector) have really tough jobs with exceptionally tough hours. Yes, I know they chose that career route to go down, but still. The people who I think should get best paid for their jobs are nurses, doctors and firemen. They do save peoples lives. They work in tough conditions, and have a lot to put up with.

Personally, if I was told that I have to work in a hazardous/dangerous environment and very long hours, I would look for more money. Teachers, nah, dont really deserve it.

Ye, well paid fair enough. But why the hell do nurses get 32K+ after graduating and why should senior doctors (medical consultants they call them here) get 200k+. Thats madness.

FlutterinBantam

hehheh... the gas thing is that everybody knows that, but no one will budge.

They have been "talking" about consultants for the last five fookin years:D

Kipperhell

Warfi wrote: »

I don't question the hard earned perks people get in private sector, so I don't think people should question me aboutthe hard earned perks I get in the public sector. I know I never questioned the perks the public sector had when I worked in the private sector. I'd friends who worked in the public sector, and I knew just how hard they worked.

Actually you did question the perks by stating you don't get them. You are now being held accountable for your own perks as a comparison. I know people with great perks who neither work hard nor deserve them both public and private.

Warfi wrote: »

If you don't like working in a job where you have only twenty days holidays, you should leave it. If you think teachers have it easy, I suggest you do the job before actually saying that. I would never assume a job is difficult or easy unless I've actually done it myself. And I don't understand people who go around saying it's easy when they've never actually done the job (I ask them)

I have not stated whether your job was easy or hard. If I was to hold you accountable as you are me I would say don't complain about teachers' working conditions as you can just leave. There is that chip on your shoulder I said is normally visible from the PS. I didn't say your job was easy just there are perks which you want to understate while exaggerating the privates sector's

Warfi wrote: »

And as for asking me what I do in my day, you tell me what you do in your day and I'll tell you whether you deserve your wage (which is, in essence, what you're asking of me)

I didn't ask what you do all day I stated you don't do the full working week of the normal private sector employee. As you are complaining about what you do expect questions about what it is like. I am currently unemployed but got €375 a day in my last position.

The thread is about being honest and you don't appear to be doing that.

Warfi

Kipperhell wrote: »

Actually you did question the perks by stating you don't get them. You are now being held accountable for your own perks as a comparison. I know people with great perks who neither work hard nor deserve them both public and private.

I have not stated whether your job was easy or hard. If I was to hold you accountable as you are me I would say don't complain about teachers' working conditions as you can just leave. There is that chip on your shoulder I said is normally visible from the PS. I didn't say your job was easy just there are perks which you want to understate while exaggerating the privates sector's

I didn't ask what you do all day I stated you don't do the full working week of the normal private sector employee. As you are complaining about what you do expect questions about what it is like. I am currently unemployed but got €375 a day in my last position.

The thread is about being honest and you don't appear to be doing that.

Usually in the media, the public sector workers job is made out to be plain sailing, five hour days, 3 months holidays etc. I'm pointing out that there are perks in the private sector too which never seem to be mentioned. I'm not complaining about the perks private workers get as I've already stated-if I did, then I'd be a hypocrite, because I availed of those very same perks myself.

I'm allowed to have a point of view about the way public sector workers are treated in the media, I've expressed it and that's all there was to it. I don't think private sector workers are to blame for the recession, and I don't think public sector workers are to blame either.

The personal abuse is below the belt in my opinion. You've labelled me as dishonest, and have also said that I have a chip on my shoulder for merely expressing my views.

I've had enough of your personal remarks

highlydebased

Alot of doctors nurses and teachers do thankless work that we might not realise so they probably deserve it.

Of course there are the chancers in every profession who milk the industry and use other things as excuses....i.e the children...

tallaght01

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

hehheh... the gas thing is that everybody knows that, but no one will budge.

They have been "talking" about consultants for the last five fookin years:D

I've asked you several times after one of these rants to come over to the bio+med forum and compare your job, training and hours worked with any of us (consultants and non consultants) to try and work out value for money to the country.

Someday you might take up the invite.

All I know is I'm 32 years old. I have 2 degrees, and am almost finished a third. But i still have to work nights. My last on-call night was spent doing a 24 hour shift. That's one of the shorter ones that on-call doctors do.

So, when I do one of these I work 8am-8pm. I might get dinner, but usually have to eat something from a vending machine, while running between the sick kids in A+E, the new babies in the premature baby unit, and the sick kids on the ward.

I might get an hour's kip. But probably not. I'm the only paediatric doc in the hospital at night. Last shift I was on, a premature bay was born at 4am. That would usually take several hours to sort out. But then a kid heading into a diabetic coma came in at 5am, who was on death's door, and needed to be sorted. That wuld usually take several hours of indvidual attention. Then at roughly 6am a kid came in having seizures that they couldn't stop in A+E, so he had to get sorted. That was on a background of having a ward full of sick kids and premature babies.

So, someone earlier was talking about us sitting around scratching our arses. Our life is routinely chaos. I have a degree of seniority now, but for years I wouldn't even bring a lunch to work, because you would never get a lunchbreak in your average 12 hour shift. I once got kidney stones while at work from constant dehydration...I went downstairs t A+E in agony, pissed them out, and went back upstairs to work.

I'm not looking for sympathy, because I wouldn't change my job. I have been offered a job recently in one of the main private hospitals in Dublin, for more money then I'll ever earn in the public sector. BUt I didn't even consider it, because I'm totally committed to public service. I have never taken a cent of private money, and never will.

I know this thread isn't about doctors, but, as always, flutterin bantam brings up the issues, as it's a convenient stereotype.

Nearly every doctor in Ireland has to go abroad to get more experience than is offered in ireland. So, I'm in Oz right now. But I earn, at 32 years of age, not much more than a newly graduated nurse.

On top of that, I have always worked a significant amount of time for free. At the end of my shift, if there's a sick kid, I don't go home at 8pm. I stay with them until they've turned a corner. We all do. I don't tell the family I'm working for free looking after their kid, so I guess they never know. But at any given time in a hospital, you'll have a good chunk of docs staying behind after their shift to look after people. I have often stayed 2 or 3 hours for free looking after people. It's usually about 10 hours per week I don't get paid for. Plus I don't get paid for my lunch break, which i never get.

Some of us will make it to be consultants in donkeys years, and we will get a very good wage then. But we will getting called into work at 4am when we're 64 years of age for emergencies. At that age we'll still be doing 60+ hour weeks (One of the great myths is that public sector consultants don't do long hours. They do much more hours than most people).

So, to counter what some people had said before...we DO care about patients. 90% of us could be earning FAR better money under FAR better conditions in the private sector.

You can't measure our output easily in economic terms, but we do have significant value for a country.

I love my job. But it gets frustrating to hear people, who don't know what they're talking about, calling us greedy, and saying we don't care about patients, and we use them as pawns etc.

Kernel

The individual is only concerned with the individual and family units. Maybe extends to smaller tribal structures (although less and less today). which is why communism didn't really work on a mass scale. When it no longer becomes in the interest of the individual to perform a certain role for the good of society, then they will stop performing that role, or lose heart in it. Go to a different society where their efforts are rewarded properly etc.

What you have left is a third world state with a brain drain.The government and banks and property developers increased the cost of living and mortgages exponentially over the celtic tiger years, left us with the bill, and now Cowen will cut our wages in order to bail out the profiteers responsible for this mess. Banana republic.

Warfi

tallaght01 wrote: »

I've asked you several times after one of these rants to come over to the bio+med forum and compare your job, training and hours worked with any of us (consultants and non consultants) to try and work out value for money to the country.

Someday you might take up the invite.

All I know is I'm 32 years old. I have 2 degrees, and am almost finished a third. But i still have to work nights. My last on-call night was spent doing a 24 hour shift. That's one of the shorter ones that on-call doctors do.

So, when I do one of these I work 8am-8pm. I might get dinner, but usually have to eat something from a vending machine, while running between the sick kids in A+E, the new babies in the premature baby unit, and the sick kids on the ward.

I might get an hour's kip. But probably not. I'm the only paediatric doc in the hospital at night. Last shift I was on, a premature bay was born at 4am. That would usually take several hours to sort out. But then a kid heading into a diabetic coma came in at 5am, who was on death's door, and needed to be sorted. That wuld usually take several hours of indvidual attention. Then at roughly 6am a kid came in having seizures that they couldn't stop in A+E, so he had to get sorted. That was on a background of having a ward full of sick kids and premature babies.

So, someone earlier was talking about us sitting around scratching our arses. Our life is routinely chaos. I have a degree of seniority now, but for years I wouldn't even bring a lunch to work, because you would never get a lunchbreak in your average 12 hour shift. I once got kidney stones while at work from constant dehydration...I went downstairs t A+E in agony, pissed them out, and went back upstairs to work.

I'm not looking for sympathy, because I wouldn't change my job. I have been offered a job recently in one of the main private hospitals in Dublin, for more money then I'll ever earn in the public sector. BUt I didn't even consider it, because I'm totally committed to public service. I have never taken a cent of private money, and never will.

I know this thread isn't about doctors, but, as always, flutterin bantam brings up the issues, as it's a convenient stereotype.

Nearly every doctor in Ireland has to go abroad to get more experience than is offered in ireland. So, I'm in Oz right now. But I earn, at 32 years of age, not much more than a newly graduated nurse.

On top of that, I have always worked a significant amount of time for free. At the end of my shift, if there's a sick kid, I don't go home at 8pm. I stay with them until they've turned a corner. We all do. I don't tell the family I'm working for free looking after their kid, so I guess they never know. But at any given time in a hospital, you'll have a good chunk of docs staying behind after their shift to look after people. I have often stayed 2 or 3 hours for free looking after people. It's usually about 10 hours per week I don't get paid for. Plus I don't get paid for my lunch break, which i never get.

Some of us will make it to be consultants in donkeys years, and we will get a very good wage then. But we will getting called into work at 4am when we're 64 years of age for emergencies. At that age we'll still be doing 60+ hour weeks (One of the great myths is that public sector consultants don't do long hours. They do much more hours than most people).

So, to counter what some people had said before...we DO care about patients. 90% of us could be earning FAR better money under FAR better conditions in the private sector.

You can't measure our output easily in economic terms, but we do have significant value for a country.

I love my job. But it gets frustrating to hear people, who don't know what they're talking about, calling us greedy, and saying we don't care about patients, and we use them as pawns etc.

A great post.
Congratulations on getting seniority

FlutterinBantam

tallaght01 wrote: »

I've asked you several times after one of these rants to come over to the bio+med forum and compare your job, training and hours worked with any of us (consultants and non consultants) to try and work out value for money to the country.

Someday you might take up the invite.

All I know is I'm 32 years old. I have 2 degrees, and am almost finished a third. But i still have to work nights. My last on-call night was spent doing a 24 hour shift. That's one of the shorter ones that on-call doctors do.

So, when I do one of these I work 8am-8pm. I might get dinner, but usually have to eat something from a vending machine, while running between the sick kids in A+E, the new babies in the premature baby unit, and the sick kids on the ward.

I might get an hour's kip. But probably not. I'm the only paediatric doc in the hospital at night. Last shift I was on, a premature bay was born at 4am. That would usually take several hours to sort out. But then a kid heading into a diabetic coma came in at 5am, who was on death's door, and needed to be sorted. That wuld usually take several hours of indvidual attention. Then at roughly 6am a kid came in having seizures that they couldn't stop in A+E, so he had to get sorted. That was on a background of having a ward full of sick kids and premature babies.

So, someone earlier was talking about us sitting around scratching our arses. Our life is routinely chaos. I have a degree of seniority now, but for years I wouldn't even bring a lunch to work, because you would never get a lunchbreak in your average 12 hour shift. I once got kidney stones while at work from constant dehydration...I went downstairs t A+E in agony, pissed them out, and went back upstairs to work.

I'm not looking for sympathy, because I wouldn't change my job. I have been offered a job recently in one of the main private hospitals in Dublin, for more money then I'll ever earn in the public sector. BUt I didn't even consider it, because I'm totally committed to public service. I have never taken a cent of private money, and never will.

I know this thread isn't about doctors, but, as always, flutterin bantam brings up the issues, as it's a convenient stereotype.

Nearly every doctor in Ireland has to go abroad to get more experience than is offered in ireland. So, I'm in Oz right now. But I earn, at 32 years of age, not much more than a newly graduated nurse.

On top of that, I have always worked a significant amount of time for free. At the end of my shift, if there's a sick kid, I don't go home at 8pm. I stay with them until they've turned a corner. We all do. I don't tell the family I'm working for free looking after their kid, so I guess they never know. But at any given time in a hospital, you'll have a good chunk of docs staying behind after their shift to look after people. I have often stayed 2 or 3 hours for free looking after people. It's usually about 10 hours per week I don't get paid for. Plus I don't get paid for my lunch break, which i never get.

Some of us will make it to be consultants in donkeys years, and we will get a very good wage then. But we will getting called into work at 4am when we're 64 years of age for emergencies. At that age we'll still be doing 60+ hour weeks (One of the great myths is that public sector consultants don't do long hours. They do much more hours than most people).

So, to counter what some people had said before...we DO care about patients. 90% of us could be earning FAR better money under FAR better conditions in the private sector.

You can't measure our output easily in economic terms, but we do have significant value for a country.

I love my job. But it gets frustrating to hear people, who don't know what they're talking about, calling us greedy, and saying we don't care about patients, and we use them as pawns etc.

I have no doubt that you are concerned Doctor, but you misinterpret my post.

As a body, I say again, as a body, Consultants,Doctors and nurses have been amongst the most intransigent in the HSE.

Why the fcuk has nothing changed over the past few years.?
Why have talks been going on between the HSE and the Unions for interminable periods with no real outcome.?
Why has the cost of the running of the HSE risen out of all proportions over the last five years.?

Why has no agreement been reached with the consultants to cover public partnership?

You see Doctor, it's all very well to quote individual cases and scenarios, but that doesn't translate into the overarching scenario that the health service in Ireland costs way way way too much and nobody is budging.

That's my point.

tallaght01

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I have no doubt that you are concerned Doctor, but you misinterpret my post.

As a body, I say again, as a body, Consultants,Doctors and nurses have been amongst the most intransigent in the HSE.

Why the fcuk has nothing changed over the past few years.?
Why have talks been going on between the HSE and the Unions for interminable periods with no real outcome.?
Why has the cost of the running of the HSE risen out of all proportions over the last five years.?

Why has no agreement been reached with the consultants to cover public partnership?

You see Doctor, it's all very well to quote individual cases and scenarios, but that doesn't translate into the overarching scenario that the health service in Ireland costs way way way too much and nobody is budging.

That's my point.

My point was about the job, rather than about me. I used examples of shifts I do,a nd how I work many hours for free.

But I'm not different to my mate who cancelled our night out tonight. He was due to finish work at 9pm, and meet me after for a drink. But there was a premature baby born, and he didn't get out til midnight. All unpaid.

You happen to think we should all roll over and have our balls tickled by Harney.

If consultants took the pay cut you wanted, we'd lose at least half of them to private practice, at a conservative estimate.

In the public sector we earn about 50% less than we would in private, for many more hours.

Ask yourself A) why that might be and would you stay in a job for half the money and about 25% more hours for no good reason other than you love your public sector job.

FlutterinBantam

tallaght01 wrote: »

My point was about the job, rather than about me. I used examples of shifts I do,a nd how I work many hours for free.

But I'm not different to my mate who cancelled our night out tonight. He was due to finish work at 9pm, and meet me after for a drink. But there was a premature baby born, and he didn't get out til midnight. All unpaid.

You happen to think we should all roll over and have our balls tickled by Harney.

If consultants took the pay cut you wanted, we'd lose at least half of them to private practice, at a conservative estimate.

In the public sector we earn about 50% less than we would in private, for many more hours.

Ask yourself A) why that might be and would you stay in a job for half the money and about 25% more hours for no good reason other than you love your public sector job.

I'm not talking about doctors working in Australia mate.

I'm on about the groups of well paid well pensioned HSE professionals who are holding this country to ransom.

Check out my first post and check out the "thanks" annotations, you will see I am not alone.

I don't buy this macho posturing about rolling over and having our bellies tickled by Harney.

Bottom line mate is that the service is too expensive.

Too many under productive operators bedded in and lodged .

I don't work in the public service, there are plenty of good people there, but the monolith is too fcuking expensive, when will people understand that.

Elba101

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Likewise nurses and doctors and consultants, who the fook do you think you are kidding?
It's yourselves you are concerned and your well paid and well pensioned lifestyle,not the focking patients.

You really think nurses are well paid for what they do? Most over worked and under appreciated job!!

FlutterinBantam

How many times do I have to repeat, the total package, I'll say it again t h e t o t a l p a c k a g e That is doctors nurses consultants cleaners porters managers is costing too fcukin much and nobody will budge.

Nobody will budge.

tallaght01

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm not talking about doctors working in Australia mate.

I'm on about the groups of well paid well pensioned HSE professionals who are holding this country to ransom.

.

What I was talking about was exactly the same as what happens in Ireland, the UK, oz, wherever. In most of what I was talking about was in relation to the Irish experience.

You cab bang on all you like about how many "thanks" you got. But that's because you said something that's populist. You got about 20 thanks, and while I appreciate that might be a lot for you, there was over 2 and half thousand views of that thread. So, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that A) your some kind of visionary or The AH thanks define the righteousness of your stance.

But just to be clear, there have been very very few people who have taken voluntary pay cuts. Doctors of all grades have been told that they now have to pay for their own training. That's compulsory courses etc that the hospitals provide to keep us up to date on resuscitation skills etc. That's a good few grand every year out of our pay.

Plus consultants were awarded a pay rise last year in exchange for doing extra work. But they've agreed to defer that because of the recession.

That's more than most professions have done.

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

I'm pointing out that there are perks in the private sector too which never seem to be mentioned.

You cannot compare perks in the public sector with perks in the private sector.

Private companies earn their money, so they can spend it any way they want. If they want to give everyone huge bonuses, that's their business.

The public sector is financed by the tax payer (via the private sector). I would have no problem with the public sector having a perks culture if it actually earned any money, but it doesn't. It just spends our money, so every euro and cent should be spent wisely.

AARRRGH

tallaght01 wrote: »

I've asked you several times after one of these rants to come over to the bio+med forum and compare your job, training and hours worked with any of us (consultants and non consultants) to try and work out value for money to the country.

Someday you might take up the invite.

All I know is I'm 32 years old. I have 2 degrees, and am almost finished a third. But i still have to work nights. My last on-call night was spent doing a 24 hour shift. That's one of the shorter ones that on-call doctors do.

So, when I do one of these I work 8am-8pm. I might get dinner, but usually have to eat something from a vending machine, while running between the sick kids in A+E, the new babies in the premature baby unit, and the sick kids on the ward.

I agree being a doctor is a crap job. Forgetting about the responsibility and long training, etc., having to be around and having to constantly touch sick people has got to be on a par with working as a bin man*, so I don't have a problem with doctors being well paid.

I think most reasonable people don't have a problem with doctors being well paid.

However, the fact remains that the public service cannot continue as it stands. It costs too much money, so either people need to be made redundant or salaries need to be cut. And if it's done fairly, that will probably mean larger cuts for those on large wages (e.g. doctors) and smaller cuts for those on smaller wages.

I'd love if the country was rich and we could afford to pay everyone what they want, but unfortunately the country is screwed so there is going to have to be some pain.

I work in the private sector and have already taken a pay cut and won't be getting any pay increases for the foreseeable future. I didn't put up a fight because I understand the basics of economics so know the cuts were necessary, even though I "deserve" more money.

*I honestly can't think of anything worse than having to be around sick people or trash all day, so I do have sympathy for doctors.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

You cannot compare perks in the public sector with perks in the private sector.

Private companies earn their money, so they can spend it any way they want. If they want to give everyone huge bonuses, that's their business.

Banks are private companies and are being bailed out at the tax payers expense, with executives getting huge bonuses directly paid for by our tax.

Lots of US multinationals took great advantage of Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate. I'm sure the money to pay for that corporate tax rate didn't come from the sky.

But of course, it's a good idea to keep the economy going, until it comes to pay the people who look after,teach, guard, nurse and administrate for the population who work in this bailed out economy.....all of a sudden it seems to be necessary to have cutbacks.

So it seems that the private sector are bailing out the public sector, and the public sector are bailing out the private sector. Or you could just say, everybody's bailing out the country because it's in the toilet.

But sh! don't say it too loud, cos then we wouldn't have anything to occupy us or argue about during these hard times then, would we? : P : )

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Banks are private companies and are being bailed out at the tax payers expense, with executives getting huge bonuses directly paid for by our tax.

Warfi wrote: »

...all of a sudden it seems to be necessary to have cutbacks.

Oh I agree what's happening with the banks isn't right, but that doesn't mean the public service should be bailed out. You know, two wrongs don't make a right.

The reason we need the cutbacks now is because our economy is totally screwed. We're not trying to attack public sector workers or have on a whim decided "let's cut their wages", the reason it's an issue now is because the country can no longer afford our public sector. Sorry, I assumed you already knew this.

I understand this is an emotional issue for public sector workers so it is hard to think about it rationally, but as an outsider (who will soon be emigrating so it doesn't affect me one way or the other) it is very clear the public sector needs some major surgery.

Warfi wrote: »

So it seems that the private sector are bailing out the public sector, and the public sector are bailing out the private sector. Or you could just say, everybody's bailing out the country because it's in the toilet.

The public sector is not bailing out the private sector. That doesn't even make sense.

FlutterinBantam

Meanwhile back on topic.

Would someone ever tell that guy Doran to cop himself on.

Got his nose bloodied in the last nurses dispute and laid low for a while.

Someone should give him a lesson in basic economics and he doesn't seem to understand that expenditure cannot exceed income without some bad things happening down the line.

AARRRGH

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Someone should give him a lesson in basic economics and he doesn't seem to understand that expenditure cannot exceed income without some bad things happening down the line.

A lot of people don't understand this. They can't see past "but it's not fair!" so their whole "logic" is based around that emotional response.

The whole "think of the children thing" is very interesting. In the US now, a large number of new laws have the words "children" or "child" in the acts name. It is an incredibly cynical tactic as the lawmakers know it is very difficult for politicians to vote against a law which is supposedly "saving the children".

As Scott Adams would say, humans are selfish and stupid.

tallaght01

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree being a doctor is a crap job. Forgetting about the responsibility and long training, etc., having to be around and having to constantly touch sick people has got to be on a par with working as a bin man*, so I don't have a problem with doctors being well paid.

I think most reasonable people don't have a problem with doctors being well paid.

However, the fact remains that the public service cannot continue as it stands. It costs too much money, so either people need to be made redundant or salaries need to be cut. And if it's done fairly, that will probably mean larger cuts for those on large wages (e.g. doctors) and smaller cuts for those on smaller wages.

I'd love if the country was rich and we could afford to pay everyone what they want, but unfortunately the country is screwed so there is going to have to be some pain.

I work in the private sector and have already taken a pay cut and won't be getting any pay increases for the foreseeable future. I didn't put up a fight because I understand the basics of economics so know the cuts were necessary, even though I "deserve" more money.

*I honestly can't think of anything worse than having to be around sick people or trash all day, so I do have sympathy for doctors.

I actually agree with you. if I go back to Ireland and my union agrees a pay cut, I'll be happy to take it. I honestly have no drama with it. I can afford a bit of a pay cut, though I'm on about half the pay people think I'm on. But I could afford it. No doubt.

I have no problems with posts like the above. It's just common sense, in my opinion. It's just the ill informed, hypocritical, populist stuff straight from the pages of the mirror that gets people's goat.

dan719

tallaght01 wrote: »

What I was talking about was exactly the same as what happens in Ireland, the UK, oz, wherever. In most of what I was talking about was in relation to the Irish experience.

You cab bang on all you like about how many "thanks" you got. But that's because you said something that's populist. You got about 20 thanks, and while I appreciate that might be a lot for you, there was over 2 and half thousand views of that thread. So, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that A) your some kind of visionary or The AH thanks define the righteousness of your stance.

But just to be clear, there have been very very few people who have taken voluntary pay cuts. Doctors of all grades have been told that they now have to pay for their own training. That's compulsory courses etc that the hospitals provide to keep us up to date on resuscitation skills etc. That's a good few grand every year out of our pay.

Plus consultants were awarded a pay rise last year in exchange for doing extra work. But they've agreed to defer that because of the recession.

That's more than most professions have done.

Wow those consultants are real heros. Out of interest are our consultants (in Ireland) three times as good as those in Finland? Do they work three times as hard? Because, if not,then why do they earn three times as much as their finnish counterparts?

Or why do we have 1.5 times as many nurses as the OECD average? Yet due to Union rules we end up having to pay addition labour costs as nurses refuse to cover other departments?

Why is there an average of 3.9 nurses for every acute bed in the major Dublin hospitals, yet nurses complain of excessive workloads?

Why do we have the world's most expensive (including the US) yet such a low quality one. (The answer is labour costs)

How come the NHS provides a service at 2/3 the cost, yet is free at point of access?

Friedman said allowing medical professionals to control access to these professions would lead to a massive increase in costs. He also claimed that medical professionals would use patients as an attempt to tug at the heartstrings of the public. It did, and you do.

tallaght01

dan719 wrote: »

Wow those consultants are real heros. Out of interest are our consultants (in Ireland) three times as good as those in Finland? Do they work three times as hard? Because, if not,then why do they earn three times as much as their finnish counterparts?

Or why do we have 1.5 times as many nurses as the OECD average? Yet due to Union rules we end up having to pay addition labour costs as nurses refuse to cover other departments?

Why is there an average of 3.9 nurses for every acute bed in the major Dublin hospitals, yet nurses complain of excessive workloads?

Why do we have the world's most expensive (including the US) yet such a low quality one. (The answer is labour costs)

How come the NHS provides a service at 2/3 the cost, yet is free at point of access?

Friedman said allowing medical professionals to control access to these professions would lead to a massive increase in costs. He also claimed that medical professionals would use patients as an attempt to tug at the heartstrings of the public. It did, and you do.

I'll ignore the last personal side of that, as a wise non-medical oardsie has just sensibly advised me to do.

I don't know how good Finnish docs are. But wages for all kinds of jobs are different in other countries. For example, one A+E consultant I knew was the only A+E consultant in his department. So, he had been on-call 24/7 for 7 years. Every single solitary day. Some places pay you when you get called in. Ireland doesn't. So, in Finland, like many countries, your doc possibly gets paid when he gets called in. This is very common. In Ireland, your salary is that.
So, when I'm in the neonatal ICU, what usually happens is this.....the consultant on-call works from 8am until 5pm basic. But they always stay until midnight, as they're guaranteed to be needed. Then they go home. They will very often get called back in at 3am or 4am if a premature baby gets delivered. Then they work from 8am-5pm straight after that. Some of these guys are in their 60s, and have spent their life doing that. But they're not getting paid any extra for those our of hours. Here in Oz, they get paid per call in and they paid overtime. So, their basic salary is less than in Ireland. People often use this as a comparison. But their take home is roughly the same as in Ireland. So, you're often not comparing like with like.

it's good money when you eventually get to e a consultant. But it's supply and demand. Cut the salary all you like. I'll earn nothing like the money that gets quoted (250k figures get bandied around) when i'ma consultant. But cut it by all means. The consultants can already earn 2 or 3 times the salary in the private sector. Cutting it will lead to a brain drain, so go for you life, to be honest. It's all supply and demand.

And don't compare it with the NHS. I worked for a good few years in the NHS, and was never more ashamed of being a doctor. It's free, and you get what you pay for. The politicians spin the stats to make it look more palatable. But I had to leave the NHS because I simply could not provide good care to patients. It's a disaster of a system.

By the way, the medics don't control access to the profession, the govt do. And the health service isn't ballsed up because of labour costs, it's flaccid because it's targets are politically driven, and not healthcare driven, as every fule noes.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Oh I agree what's happening with the banks isn't right, but that doesn't mean the public service should be bailed out. You know, two wrongs don't make a right.

The reason we need the cutbacks now is because our economy is totally screwed. We're not trying to attack public sector workers or have on a whim decided "let's cut their wages", the reason it's an issue now is because the country can no longer afford our public sector. Sorry, I assumed you already knew this.

I understand this is an emotional issue for public sector workers so it is hard to think about it rationally, but as an outsider (who will soon be emigrating so it doesn't affect me one way or the other) it is very clear the public sector needs some major surgery.



The public sector is not bailing out the private sector. That doesn't even make sense.

So the country can't afford the public sector? Why doesn't the country just hibernate for a few years then, and we can all come back out when everything's fine? You can't just simply ignore the fact that you're talking about peoples livelihoods (unless you're Milton Friedman).

I can think about it rationally alright. The only reason it's an emotive subject is the backlash public sectors receive day in, day out and the sh*t stirring rhetoric in the opening post of this thread doesn't do much to help things. If you heard stuff like this about your job day after day, were questioned if you deserved a wage (as I've been on this thread) what would you think of it all? Would you meekly step back and say 'Yes take any cuts you want' or would you fight for everything you have?

Getting peoples backs up really does nothing for the whole sorry mess and the media has done a fine job of stirring things up.

I would appreciate it if you left out your patronising tone in your posts. We are all free to take part in reasonable discussion without having to be patronised for our opinions.

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

So the country can't afford the public sector? Why doesn't the country just hibernate for a few years then, and we can all come back out when everything's fine? You can't just simply ignore the fact that you're talking about peoples livelihoods (unless you're Milton Friedman).

Are you serious or joking?

Have you not been keeping up to date with current affairs over the past few years?

Our country is practically bankrupt. We have a horrendously expensive public service. We cannot afford to pay for it anymore. That is why there are going to be cuts.

There is no choice. We don't have the money.

You seem to think there is a choice or that it's just some crusade against public service workers. You are wrong.

Warfi wrote: »

If you heard stuff like this about your job day after day, were questioned if you deserved a wage (as I've been on this thread) what would you think of it all? Would you meekly step back and say 'Yes take any cuts you want' or would you fight for everything you have?

No one is saying that. As I said, you're thinking emotionally not logically. No one is saying we don't need a public service. We are saying we cannot afford the one we currently have. This is not my opinion, the numbers speak for themselves. We can't afford the public service wage bill.

Warfi wrote: »

I would appreciate it if you left out your patronising tone in your posts. We are all free to take part in reasonable discussion

I'm not being patronising, you're simply not seeing the reality of the situation. If a business has no more money, you would understand that people are going to have to take a wage cut or lose their jobs, right? Well the exact same thing is currently happening to the public service.

tallaght01

There just needs to be rational debate. The public sector is too expensive. Now, of course, some people extend that logic and imply it means that the public sector are useless overpaid feckers.

So, you have to thread a fine line. The country is depending on the public sector. The private sector has balled it up (this is no more of a generalisation than those made about the public sector on this thread) and they're not going to fix it.

So, we just have to do something. Problem is people have commitments. Mortgage, car loan, school fees etc. You have the usual suspects coming along, screaming that you're fat overpaid sloths, so you should just give up 25% of your salary. As adults, most of us can understand that is not how to engage people to do you a favour.

So, the deal needs to be sweetened. Once you've cut back overtime, then wages will have to be cut. But many of us turned our back on the big salaries when things were good, because we wanted to work for the public. So, we don't feel we should talk all the responsibility for getting us out of this mess.

I'm no trade unionist, and I don't know a lot about all this kind of thing. But i reckon the public sector should be offered an incentive to do this. Like better conditions when the country experiences a certain amount of months of positive growth or whatever.

There has to be a way of doing this without alienating the people who we're asking to bail us out.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Are you serious or joking?

Have you not been keeping up to date with current affairs over the past few years?

Our country is practically bankrupt. We have a horrendously expensive public service. We cannot afford to pay for it anymore. That is why there are going to be cuts.

There is no choice. We don't have the money.

You seem to think there is a choice or that it's just some crusade against public service workers. You are wrong.



No one is saying that. As I said, you're thinking emotionally not logically. No one is saying we don't need a public service. We are saying we cannot afford the one we currently have. This is not my opinion, the numbers speak for themselves. We can't afford the public service wage bill.




I'm not being patronising, you're simply not seeing the reality of the situation. If a business has no more money, you would understand that people are going to have to take a wage cut or lose their jobs, right? Well the exact same thing is currently happening to the public service.

Read any paper, listen to any radio station, look at how this thread started from the point of view of a public sector worker, and I doubt you would be very happy with how your hard work and dedication to your job is viewed.

I understand that cuts are needed, I just do not agree with how the public sector is made out to be a pack of free loaders who barely do a decent days work. Do you think the media or threads like this make things better between public and private by trotting out tired old cliches about how little we work and how much we get paid and our endless holidays? Usually trotted out by people who've never worked in the public sector, may I add.

AARRRGH

Why should the public service get special treatment?

Seriously, what makes the public sector so special that you think they should be treated differently?

Private sector workers understand that when there's no money, their job is at risk, or they have to take wage cuts.

Why do public sector workers think this sort of logic shouldn't apply to them?

Why do they think they're special?

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Read any paper, listen to any radio station, look at how this thread started from the point of view of a public sector worker, and I doubt you would be very happy with how your hard work and dedication to your job is viewed.

That's all totally irrelevant. We're not talking about whether people think you're doing a great job or not. We're talking about not being able to afford your wage anymore.

Warfi wrote: »

I understand that cuts are needed, I just do not agree with how the public sector is made out to be a pack of free loaders who barely do a decent days work. Do you think the media or threads like this make things better between public and private by trotting out tired old cliches about how little we work and how much we get paid and our endless holidays? Usually trotted out by people who've never worked in the public sector, may I add.

Maybe start a new thread, because we're not talking about whether you work hard or not. What you're saying has nothing to do with being able to pay your wage.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why should the public service get special treatment?

Seriously, what makes the public sector so special that you think they should be treated differently?

Private sector workers understand that when there's no money, their job is at risk, or they have to take wage cuts.

Why do public sector workers think this sort of logic shouldn't apply to them?

Why do they think they're special?

Are you talking to me or the public sector workers you've heard about in the media?

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's all totally irrelevant. We're not talking about whether people think you're doing a great job or not. We're talking about not being able to afford your wage anymore.




Maybe start a new thread, because we're not talking about whether you work hard or not.

This thread started out calling public sector workers 'overpaid gimps'.

Looks like you're off topic mate

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Are you talking to me or the public sector workers you've heard about in the media?

I was responding to tallaght01's post.

Warfi wrote: »

This thread started out calling public sector workers 'overpaid gimps'.

Looks like you're off topic mate

Public sector workers are overpaid. What do I need to do to make you understand that? If you weren't overpaid we would be able to afford your wages. We can't afford your wages.

You seem to think we live in this rich, magical country where we should pay our public sector workers large wages. Sorry to break it to you but we live in a tiny island which has no money!

If it makes things easier for you, imagine some poor African country with a huge public sector bill which it can't afford, and with the public sector workers earning a high wage. We are the African country.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's all totally irrelevant. We're not talking about whether people think you're doing a great job or not.


Maybe start a new thread, because we're not talking about whether you work hard or not.

well that's weird because my ability to do a day's work was brought into question in this very thread, and I was also asked to show how I earn my wage.

Funny how things are twisted around when you're trying to compare the private and public sectors.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

I was responding to tallaght01's post.




Public sector workers are overpaid. What do I need to do to make you understand that? If you weren't overpaid we would be able to afford your wages. We can't afford your wages.

You seem to think we live in this rich, magical country where we should pay our public sector workers large wages. Sorry to break it to you but we live in a tiny island which has no money!

Did you miss my post where I said I understand we need cuts?

Or have you chosen to ignore it?

By the way, is your username representative of how you're feeling right now? : P

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

I was responding to tallaght01's post.




Public sector workers are overpaid. What do I need to do to make you understand that? If you weren't overpaid we would be able to afford your wages. We can't afford your wages.

You seem to think we live in this rich, magical country where we should pay our public sector workers large wages. Sorry to break it to you but we live in a tiny island which has no money!

That logic is a tad iffy. Whereas due to the state of the nation there may be a problem in paying the total bill for the public service. However the does not equate with every PS worker being over paid.

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Funny how things are twisted around when you're trying to compare the private and public sectors.

Come on. I'm not twisting things here. I'm repeating the same point that the public and private sector are both in trouble, and that like the private sector, the public sector needs a very sharp haircut.

Warfi wrote: »

Did you miss my post where I said I understand we need cuts?

Your previous posts were anti-cuts. I see you now agree with me. Great, let's move on.

I will also accept you work hard. Please stop posting that point as it has nothing to do with our ability to pay your wages.

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

That logic is a tad iffy. Whereas due to the state of the nation there may be a problem in paying the total bill for the public service. However the does not equate with every PS worker being over paid.

Wel the statistics would strongly suggest our public service workers are overpaid compared to the size of our economy, nevermind overpaid compared to the average wage.

I would hope that the cuts are done fairly, with the higher paid workers getting a largeer cut than the lower paid workers.

And like the OPs comment, I would hope the public service don't pretend they are against any cuts because they want to save the children.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Come on. I'm not twisting things here. I'm repeating the same point that the public and private sector are both in trouble, and that like the private sector, the public sector needs a very sharp haircut.




Your previous posts were anti-cuts. I see you now agree with me. Great, let's move on.

I will also accept you work hard. Please stop posting that point as it has nothing to do with our ability to pay your wages.

It's not my fault you don't want to hear me standing up for the job I do. I'll carry on doing it until I see a change in the public media (which will be never:rolleyes:). I also never said that I personally was against the cuts.

I wasn't saying you had twisted things about private and public. I meant another poster had twisted what I had said to suit their agenda.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

And like the OPs comment, I would hope the public service don't pretend they are against any cuts because they want to save the children.

I never said I wanted to save the children either. Why are you taking what the media says as gospel?

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

It's not my fault you don't want to hear me standing up for the job I do. I'll carry on doing it until I see a change in the public media (which will be never:rolleyes:). I also never said that I personally was against the cuts.

I wasn't saying you had twisted things about private and public. I meant another poster had twisted what I had said to suit their agenda.

The reason for the cuts has nothing to do with you doing a good or bad job. It is because we can't afford your wages.

I worked in the public sector for a while and I definitely did see a huge amount of wasters and wastage, however that is a totally seperate issue and can be tackled regardless of whether wages are high or low. So it really is a moot point.

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

I never said I wanted to save the children either. Why are you taking what the media says as gospel?

Why are you taking everything so personally? No one thinks everything the public sector does applies to you. Chill.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why are you taking everything so personally? No one thinks everything the public sector does applies to you. Chill.

Your 'saving the children' quote is symptomatic of the empty rhetoric employed by the media. I know you weren't being personal, but it just goes to show the effect the media has on the public with regard to the public sector and pay cuts.

It's just a step beyond the tired old cliches.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

Wel the statistics would strongly suggest our public service workers are overpaid compared to the size of our economy, nevermind overpaid compared to the average wage.

I would hope that the cuts are done fairly, with the higher paid workers getting a largeer cut than the lower paid workers.

And like the OPs comment, I would hope the public service don't pretend they are against any cuts because they want to save the children.

Not the children but maybe the service, 3 of my team left took early retirement as it was not worth their while to carry on. I'm only in 12 years and only paying a pension for 7 so I will either slog it out or take my work elsewhere. The latter is something I would rather not do as over the years I have had many opportunities to do and make more money, but I perfered to keep at the service I was supplying.

However, at the end of the day I work to live and if I have to touch on I will. I'm see the health service worker being slaughtered and tbh my colleagues in the private sector are still making more money. So personally I don't think I am over paid. Will I take another hit maybe depending on what it is, but I will not hang around for an ongoing slaughter, and that is where the services suffers.

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Your 'saving the children' quote is symptomatic of the empty rhetoric employed by the media. I know you weren't being personal, but it just goes to show the effect the media has on the public with regard to the public sector and pay cuts.

It's just a step beyond the tired old cliches.

Hang on, you can't blame the media. I've seen the teachers union say "think of the childen" and I've seen the nurses union say "think of the patients". They always pretend they don't want cuts because it will affect the children/patients.

This isn't my imagination, I've repeatedly seen them say it over the past few years.

I understand you are not saying that, but the unions representing a lot of public service workers are.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

I worked in the public sector for a while and I definitely did see a huge amount of wasters and wastage, however that is a totally seperate issue and can be tackled regardless of whether wages are high or low. So it really is a moot point.

Did you leave when you got a better offer in the private sector?

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't think I am over paid.

The public sector as a whole is overpaid. I appreciate you may not be one of the big earners.