At least be Honest

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

Did you leave when you got a better offer in the private sector?

I worked for the private sector contracting for the public sector, if you get me.

Personally I would never work for the public sector. I hate unions and the union mentality, and I want to be rich.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

Hang on, you can't blame the media. I've seen the teachers union say "think of the childen" and I've seen the nurses union say "think of the patients". They always pretend they don't want cuts because it will affect the children/patients.

This isn't my imagination, I've repeatedly seen them say it over the past few years.

I understand you are not saying that, but the unions representing a lot of public service workers are.

Well I for one know that having worked in schools (have you?), teachers do care about how the children in their class do. The people I've worked with go to great lengths to ensure that each child is getting the education they're supposed to get.

This will be far more difficult to do if there are another five or six children in the class. Or if there is another class in with your own because a teacher is off sick for the day.

Why do you think they're pretending? Have you actually spoken to those teachers holding those placards? Or did you see it on the newspaper, telly?

AARRRGH

Warfi wrote: »

Well I for one know that having worked in schools (have you?), teachers do care about how the children in their class do. The people I've worked with go to great lengths to ensure that each child is getting the education they're supposed to get.

This will be far more difficult to do if there are another five or six children in the class. Or if there is another class in with your own because a teacher is off sick for the day.

Why do you think they're pretending? Have you actually spoken to those teachers holding those placards? Or did you see it on the newspaper, telly?

I'm not naive and I understand human nature.

When a teacher is told she is getting a pay cut, her first priority is herself and her family, her mortgage and her loans, her quality of life and her hobbies. Somewhere down the list is the pupils.

The problem the OP is talking about and which I agree with, is the teachers pretend their main concern (or only concern) is the pupils. It's dishonest.

Note by teachers I mean the unions, I don't mean every single individual teacher in Ireland.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

The public sector as a whole is overpaid. I appreciate you may not be one of the big earners.

That is the point that got me into this thread. It does not follow any logic, there cannot be under-paid individuals in an over paid system. The PS bill may be to high but stating that the PS is overpaid gives the sense that we all are. In my mind this is how the division between both sector is occurring, if I remember correctly I took less than a 1% hit on the pension levey as someone earning twice+ my wage.

Yes the are people on my clinical team earning 3+ my wage and some even more. That is my concern when people state we are overpaid we all get lumped into one group. Of course some people on my team should earn more, but that means they can take bigger hits as you suggested. However, I have little faith in those hits being handed out fairly.

Warfi

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not naive and I understand human nature.

When a teacher is told she is getting a pay cut, her first priority is herself and her family, her mortgage and her loans, her quality of life and her hobbies. Somewhere down the list is the pupils.

The problem the OP is talking about and which I agree with, is the teachers pretend their main concern (or only concern) is the pupils. It's dishonest.

Of course teachers need wages. Would you work for free? It really goes without saying that their wages are going to be on his/her list of priorities. It doesn't mean they're lying about the effect bigger classrooms are going to have on children's education. It's all true, and the effects can be seen already...sna's are being withdrawn from classrooms, learning support has been cut.
The children who used to avail of these resources are now lumped back into a mainstream class which is even bigger than before. And in this situation, the teacher can't afford to pay the attention needed by those children. We're talking about children who have ADHD, ADD, dyslexia, etc. Learning Support was a wonderful resource where children with these problems got individual attention due to the smaller group. It took years to get funds for these resources, and now they're gone in the space of a year.

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

That is the point that got me into this thread. It does not follow any logic, there cannot be under-paid individuals in an over paid system.

Your logic isn't quite right.

Not everyone is earning big money (although many are) in the public sector, but as a whole the public sector is too expensive and people are earning too much. The figures prove this beyond a doubt.

I have said this twice already, but I would hope the cuts will be fair, for example, 10% for high earners and 5% for lower earners.

The main problem is Ireland was drunk on credit for the past 10 years, so we fooled ourselves into thinking we are a rich country who can afford to pay high wages. Unfortunately it was all an illusion and the reality is we are a little island with a little economy.

Warfi wrote: »

Of course teachers need wages. Would you work for free?

I don't see how that's relevant.

You said teachers don't say "think of the children" but the children are one of their big concerns.

I said they DO say "think of the children" (I've seen them repeatedly say it) and that the children are one of their concerns, but certainly not their main concern. They pretend it is their main concern.

No one is saying they should work for free. Honestly this debate has gone insane if you think anyone is thinking or saying anything close to that.

Teachers should be able to live on an above average wage, they don't need a huge wage. They can afford a pay cut.

tallaght01

The problem is aaargghhh has never worked int he public sector caring for people.

When cuts happen, you lose your best staff, and you lose services.

I was hoping for sensle discussion, but instead we get the "you don't really care about the patients" etc.

If there was a 15% cut in my wages, I'd be much more concerned about the impact on patient care than on me. As the hit became bigger, I'd start worrying about me.

But I guess that's hard to understand if you've not cared for people.

Public sector workers (or well, I can really only speak for docs) don't think we're special. But the reality is we're being asked to bail out the cock ups of the private sector, so we should be offered something when times are good again. We didn't chase the big money during the boom times.

It comes down to the fundamental problem of misunderstanding human nature. "you're overpaid, take a cut" just doesn't wash with people who've sacrificed huge parts of their life for the public sector.

But I've really nothing more to add. Tell your docs and nurses and psychotherapists etc they're overpaid, and unilaterally take money off them with no negotiation, and see what happens. Like I said, earlier, the private sector is always trying to recruit us. So, see what happens. Doesn't affect me either way.

AARRRGH

tallaght01 wrote: »

The problem is aaargghhh has never worked int he public sector caring for people.

When cuts happen, you lose your best staff, and you lose services.

I was hoping for sensle discussion, but instead we get the "you don't really care about the patients" etc.

No one has said that.

Go back and re-read the posts.

We have pointed out there is a difference between a union saying patients are the #1 concern and a union saying patients are one of the concerns.

tallaght01 wrote: »

If there was a 15% cut in my wages, I'd be much more concerned about the impact on patient care than on me.

If you are already earning a large wage (I know you earn a small wage in Australia but we're not talking about Australia) and you take a 15% pay cut, you are still earning a large wage. Your patients should not suffer.

tallaght01 wrote: »

But I guess that's hard to understand if you've not cared for people.

You know nothing about me, so stop making dumb assumptions.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Public sector workers (or well, I can really only speak for docs) don't think we're special. But the reality is we're being asked to bail out the cock ups of the private sector, so we should be offered something when times are good again. We didn't chase the big money during the boom times.

Your previous post clearly proved you think public sector workers are special. You don't believe it is fair they should just take pay cuts, yet of course it's ok the private sector workers should take pay cuts, cause you know, private sector workers ain't special.

We're ALL being asked to bail out the banks.

The reason the public sector needs a pay cut has NOTHING to do with the banks.

Come on, if you don't understand what's going on in Ireland now you shouldn't be making such strong comments.

FlutterinBantam

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm not naive and I understand human nature.

When a teacher is told she is getting a pay cut, her first priority is herself and her family, her mortgage and her loans, her quality of life and her hobbies. Somewhere down the list is the pupils.

The problem the OP is talking about and which I agree with, is the teachers pretend their main concern (or only concern) is the pupils. It's dishonest.

Note by teachers I mean the unions, I don't mean every single individual teacher in Ireland.

Absolutely spot on there, you are the only one to understand the gist of my opening post.

The only one.


Spot on there.

Dozen Wicked Words

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Meanwhile back on topic.

Would someone ever tell that guy Doran to cop himself on.

Got his nose bloodied in the last nurses dispute and laid low for a while.

Someone should give him a lesson in basic economics and he doesn't seem to understand that expenditure cannot exceed income without some bad things happening down the line.

The man is a pr*ck, and the other unions who represent Nurses have done a great job of stirring up anger at the profession they are supposed to represent. The last industrial action was a total waste of everyones (including the Nurses) time and very little was achieved except giving that weasel more air time and costing the HSE money they couldn't afford.

The Unions makes ridiculous claims for increases in wages, and the rank and file worker is left defending themselves against claims of greed, laziness and fcuk knows what else.

Most Nurses are in a Union to cover their liability insurance and nothing else.

PLEASE do not think the Unions speak for the average worker because they don't, and please don't use their utterances as a stick to beat us with :eek:

dvpower

Its this kind of carry on that drives the view that PS workers are out of touch.

SECONDARY TEACHERS are to press ahead with a ban on parent-teacher meetings outside of regular school hours this autumn, in a move that brings them into direct confrontation with the Department of Education.

At the first sign of problems they seek to cause pain to the very people that they need on their side.

AARRRGH

dvpower wrote: »

Its this kind of carry on that drives the view that PS workers are out of touch.

At the first sign of problems they seek to cause pain to the very people that they need on their side.

I wish we had a hard line government. You know, you don't want to do the yearly parent teacher meeting in the evenings? Grand, let's scrap your three month summer holiday.

The deluded sense of entitlement in the public sector (by the unions at least) is ridiculous. I'm sorry teachers, doctors, nurses and gardai, but you're ordinary people like the rest of us. You don't deserve special treatment.

But this is off topic and has nothing to do with the public sector wage bill or their dishonest reasons for needing above average pay.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

The deluded sense of entitlement in the public sector (by the unions at least) is ridiculous. I'm sorry teachers, doctors, nurses and gardai, but you're ordinary people like the rest of us. You don't deserve special treatment.

But this is off topic and has nothing to do with the public sector wage bill or their dishonest reasons for needing above average pay.

What dishonest reasons do you speak of?

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

What dishonest reasons do you speak of?

You're right, dishonest wasn't the right word. Maybe "exaggerated" would be more suitable. As in, the children will suffer if I don't get 50k per year...

Odysseus

Depending on ones qualifications and experience 50k a year isn't alot of money. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys as the saying goes. We have had a pension levy, the HSE is trying to reduce overtime, but aiming to define the working day as 0.800-20.00 [personally it will have little impact on me as my grade does not get paid over-time] but that is another hit for people.

We are all going to be hit again in December regardless of what sector you work in. I will gladly take the wage and taxes of my opposite in Europe, when the cost of living is the same. Ecev though with saying that my understanding is that whilst taxes and cost of living are different in different states, my earnings for my experience and qualifications are not that different.

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

Depending on ones qualifications and experience 50k a year isn't alot of money. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys as the saying goes.

In fairness, 50k is a huge amount of money. If you can't live on 50k you're doing something wrong. :pac:

But again it comes back to the fact that the wage bll has to come down. Your personal circumstances are irrelevant. It's either bankrupt the country (which isn't far off) or sort out the mess.

I just can't see how we can save the country while keeping our expensive public sector.

BrianD3

I'm still laughing at the implication that the private sector is honest. So when private sector representatives, economists or workers are given a platform (often by the private sector media) what they say is 100% honest, unbiased and agenda free is it? What a joke.

I suppose next thing SIPTU economists will be recommending slashing public pay and IBEC economists will be recommending raising taxes? :rolleyes:

Yeah, teachers will wail about cutbacks affecting the poor children as if that is their only concern when everyone knows it isn't. The private sector does them same. "slash public servants wages for the sake of the economy and our children and grandchildren" when what they really mean is "make the other guy pay"

AARRRGH

BrianD3 wrote: »

I'm still laughing at the implication that the private sector is honest. So when private sector representatives, economists or workers are given a platform (often by the private sector media) what they say is 100% honest, unbiased and agenda free is it? What a joke.

I suppose next thing SIPTU economists will be recommending slashing public pay and IBEC economists will be recommending raising taxes? :rolleyes:

Yeah, teachers will wail about cutbacks affecting the poor children as if that is their only concern when everyone knows it isn't. The private sector does them same. "slash public servants wages for the sake of the economy and our children and grandchildren" when what they really mean is "make the other guy pay"

No one thinks private sector workers are honest; everyone is looking out for their own interests, both public sector workers and private sector workers.

The difference is private sector workers don't think they're special or deserve special treatment so they accept their pay cuts.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

In fairness, 50k is a huge amount of money. If you can't live on 50k you're doing something wrong. :pac:

But again it comes back to the fact that the wage bll has to come down. Your personal circumstances are irrelevant. It's either bankrupt the country (which isn't far off) or sort out the mess.

I just can't see how we can save the country while keeping our expensive public sector.

You will know this yourself without a pension levy, there is a significant difference between what it say you earn on paper and what's left after taxes and levies which both sectors are incurring. 50k might look a significant amount but by the time people pay their bills it is a different story, but as I said you know this already.

50-70k is really only a standard wage for an experienced and qualified person of say someone of a minimum of Masters education with say 10+ years experience in their field. Most of the people I initally studied with would earn that and alot of them work in the private sector or are self employed, the self-employed ones earn more.

As you said this is not a place for personal circumstances, and I'm not going to go into personal expensives. However, I had always avoided chasing the money, I want a quality of life not cash. So I have always avoided doing extra private work, however in the last year I have had to forgo that luxury, the only reason I making that statement is that I know I'm not the only one in my profession that had to make that step; and yes I'm aware that I'm luckly enough to be in a position where I can take on extra work.

Your right that some people get paid too much in the PS, and the should take cuts. The notion of bonuses are not supposed to occur within the public service, yet people like Drumm [sp] have recieved quite significant bonuses over the years, how does that happen. I have never recieved a cent more than the hours I have worked [with the exception of very minor expenses], but these are the guys who mismanaged the service.

I know I'm am going to take more hits this year, but the issues I have is these threads represent us as all being overpaid, the service I delivery is worth every cent, I worked hard in order to be able to supply it. However, just because the state is in trouble it doesn't mean I'm over-paid it means the state can't afford to pay me the rate we agreed.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

No one thinks private sector workers are honest; everyone is looking out for their own interests, both public sector workers and private sector workers.

The difference is private sector workers don't think they're special or deserve special treatment so they accept their pay cuts.

Since when did looking after your interests equate with being dishonest?

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

Since when did looking after your interests equate with being dishonest?

Dishonest in the context of this thread, e.g. you can't cut my wages because the children will suffer. Or one of the million other excuses we hear.

But again I agree with you dishonest isn't the best word to use. Maybe "not totally honest" or "bending the truth". :pac:

Odysseus

As I pointed out earlier, if the experienced staff leave the service will suffer. I don't use my own clients as examples, but when you lose your best staff not matter what sector your in the service suffers.

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

As I pointed out earlier, if the experienced staff leave the service will suffer. I don't use my own clients as examples, but when you lose your best staff not matter what sector your in the service suffers.

What are we supposed to do though?

If you can tell me how we can save 20 billion (or whatever) a year without cutting wages, I'm all for it.

Odysseus

I noted earlier that I know I will take a hit, but as I keep saying the point that got me into this thread is the that we "are overpaid" comments. There is a significant different between the state not being in a position to pay my wage and the implication the service I provide is not worth my wage.

AARRRGH

Odysseus wrote: »

I noted earlier that I know I will take a hit, but as I keep saying the point that got me into this thread is the that we "are overpaid" comments. There is a significant different between the state not being in a position to pay my wage and the implication the service I provide is not worth my wage.

If you moved to Nigeria to do the same job and were paid whatever your Irish wage is, people would say you are overpaid.

They would say you are overpaid because you should not be getting that salary for the job you do, mainly because it isn't a realistic salary for Nigeria.

We have fooled ourselves into thinking the average Teacher deserves 50k and that 50k is a "fair" wage, when in reality it's way too much money for what a teacher does, for many reasons but the main one being the government can't afford to pay that wage. Hence the teacher is being overpaid.

I think we're just debating a semantics issue though.

Odysseus

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think we're just debating a semantics issue though.

You may be correct, however, there seems to be an implication in the overpaid comment in the media and with some of the private sector people I speak to that refers to more than the state not having the cash. This is the aspect I object to.

Kipperhell

Warfi wrote: »

Usually in the media, the public sector workers job is made out to be plain sailing, five hour days, 3 months holidays etc. I'm pointing out that there are perks in the private sector too which never seem to be mentioned. I'm not complaining about the perks private workers get as I've already stated-if I did, then I'd be a hypocrite, because I availed of those very same perks myself.

I'm allowed to have a point of view about the way public sector workers are treated in the media, I've expressed it and that's all there was to it. I don't think private sector workers are to blame for the recession, and I don't think public sector workers are to blame either.

The personal abuse is below the belt in my opinion. You've labelled me as dishonest, and have also said that I have a chip on my shoulder for merely expressing my views.

I've had enough of your personal remarks

The chip on your shoulder is very evident. Again you have posted a load of things I have not claimed and answered them defensively. You are allowed a point of view but try and restrict it to what is being put to you.

You are either blinkered in understanding this or actively misdirecting. So yeas I say you are not being honest about the subject. I know people work hard in the public sector but I also know some are overpaid and have some unjust perks. Teacher's simply work less hours than most yet get paid like it is a the same as a standard full time working week which it isn't. That includes unpaid time which most private sector employees do.