Should the rest of Europe get to vote on this treaty?

waitinforatrain

After putting a lot of effort into studying the facts behind the treaty and wading through the blatant lies, do you think that it's fair for Ireland to be deciding such an important treaty alone? Are there calls in other countries (besides UK) for a referendum?

mickoneill30

waitinforatrain wrote: »

do you think that it's fair for Ireland to be deciding such an important treaty alone?

We're not. Every country has their own ways of ratifying this treaty.
Do you think it's fair to tell other countries that their way is wrong?

My name is URL

I'd imagine that most people would want to have a say on it

That won't matter to the people here though, because they only want the integration of governments.. they don't seem to care about the people's wishes

faux democracy ftl

mickoneill30

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd imagine that most people would want to have a say on it

That won't matter to the people here though, because they only want the integration of governments.. they don't seem to care about the people's wishes

The people voted for their own governments as far as I'm aware.

xardoxify

Referendums are illegal in Germany and in the UK the result of a referendum is not constitutionaly binding so no government now or in the future has to act on its result, a UK referendum would be nothing more than an expensive opinion poll.

marco_polo

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd imagine that most people would want to have a say on it

That won't matter to the people here though, because they only want the integration of governments. they don't seem to care about the people's wishes

faux democracy ftl

Nobody here is opposed to any country having a referendum on the Treaty, so let us kill that straw man right there.. It is simply that is is not for us to dictate either way.

The same people who are protesting at us being 'forced to vote' again, are showing a distinctly high level of hypocracy on this issue.

The Germans were so outraged they elected the same Government again.

marco_polo

xardoxify wrote: »

Referendums are illegal in Germany and in the UK the result of a referendum is not constitutionaly binding so no government now or in the future has to act on its result, a UK referendum would be nothing more than an expensive opinion poll.

In addition they are not binding in the Netherlands, and referendums on Foreign policy are not legal in Italy either.

Biggins

mickoneill30 wrote: »

...Do you think it's fair to tell other countries that their way is wrong?

O' you mean like China, Zimbabwe, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, and on and on and on...

We can bring them up and mention them when something is unjust and/or wrong but hell, speak up and try and give our European partners a voice and vote too and let them have an say?
O' no, that would be wrong! :rolleyes:

My name is URL

marco_polo wrote: »

Nobody here is opposed to any country having a referendum on the Treaty, so let us kill that straw man right there.. It is simply that is is not for us to dictate either way.

The same people who are protesting at us being 'forced to vote' again, are showing a distinctly high level of hypocracy on this issue.

We can't dictate that they should have a say, but we are in a position to acknowledge the unfair nature of how this Treaty is been introduced, and use our vote to hammer that point home

Sure the people elect their MEPs, so what does that mean..? That accountability rests with them regardless of them having no say in the matters which their elected representatives are involved with.

It's always been one of my main reasons for voting No.. more power to the people, not the fatcats making decisions on their behalf

mickoneill30

Biggins wrote: »

O' you mean like China, Zimbabwe, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, North Korea, and on and on and on...

We can bring them up and mention them when something is unjust and/or wrong but hell, speak up and try and give our European partners a voice and vote too and let them have an say?
O' no, that would be wrong! :rolleyes:

WTF? We should be telling countries in Europe how to run their governments? That sounds more undemocratic to me.

Is that anyway similar to the problems in the countries you've listed above.

meglome

Before I got involved in the Lisbon 2 debate on boards.ie I would have said yes it's a very good idea for all EU country's to have a referendum on it. Now on the other hand I know it's a terrible idea and would cause the EU to basically collapse.

Remember if Johnny from Blanch was getting a legal contract for something more than say 20 pages he'd get a solicitor to look at it and evaluate it. But the Lisbon treaty is hundreds of pages and Johnny is expected to understand and vote on the contents. What often happens is Johnny will listen to Micko down the road who hasn't read it either but is positive it will do bad things. And this is without the nutjobs like Cóir crawling out of the woodwork.

I can see clearly why binding referenda are banned in some country's.

mickoneill30

meglome wrote: »

What often happens is Johnny will listen to Micko down the road who hasn't read it either but is positive it will do bad things.

I'm not happy with your choice of names there. :P

humanji

Personally, I don't like the idea of us voting for the thing. Yes, we can go on and on about how it's our democratic right or how we'll be abused by "fat cats". But considering how many people don't understand the thing and point blank refuse to find out about it (yet still feel they must vote No because they hate Europe, or vote Yes because Daddy is too etc).

I'd like a happy medium though. Something where the people can voice their concerns and these concerns would have to be addressed before the elected representatives ratify or refuse to ratify anything.

marco_polo

My name is URL wrote: »

We can't dictate that they should have a say, but we are in a position to acknowledge the unfair nature of how this Treaty is been introduced, and use our vote to hammer that point home

Sure the people elect their MEPs, so what does that mean..? That accountability rests with them regardless of them having no say in the matters which their elected representatives are involved with.

It's always been one of my main reasons for voting No.. more power to the people, not the fatcats making decisions on their behalf

And what about if we vote No, a new treaty is negotiated some years down the line and the majority of countries ratify by parliament again, as they have always done? Shall we vote no again untill they get it right?

The fact is the exact same amount of referenda were held for the Nice Treaty as for Lisbon.

Interesting aside Denmark will be holding a referendm on the Euro in 2010, so clearly this is considered an issue of much greater national importance that a relatively benign reform treaty.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,602897,00.html


Same story with Sweeden, no referendum on Nice but one on the Euro the year after.

jhegarty

xardoxify wrote: »

Referendums are illegal in Germany.

Interesting , I must admit I didn't know that.

wylo

I dont even think the majority of people in other countries even care to be honest. Even though theres talk of UK wanting a referendum etc, theres absolutely no mention of the voting in any of its news channels today.

Its more easy to find info on David Letterman being blackmailed than it is to find foreign reports on todays referendum.

Its not like this forum or even the rest of the country has been exactly bombarded with foriegners trying to campaign.

ixtlan

wylo wrote: »

Even though theres talk of UK wanting a referendum etc, theres absolutely no mention of the voting in any of its news channels today.

Indeed. Although it's likely people in the UK would vote no, it's also the case that very very few of them know how the EU works. Also, even though they would vote no and appear to be Euroskeptic, it's unlikely to be a general election issue. It will be interesting to see.

In Germany obviously it was not a general election issue...

Ix.

jhegarty

The issue with the UK is that it wasn't a election issue last time because both parties promised a vote on the European constitution.

Of course when it became Lisbon the government said there was no need for a vote.

ixtlan

jhegarty wrote: »

Of course when it became Lisbon the government said there was no need for a vote.

Strictly speaking of course they were legally correct that there was no need for a vote once the constitutional language was removed. Whether it was ethically/politically the correct decision is debatable.

The problem remains for the UK that people will vote no just because it is the EU without understanding what it is about. I was in the UK last week and someone I met said I hope you vote no to Lisbon... but then had absolutely no idea why I should vote no or what Lisbon was about. EU=bad... that was the basis.

Given a referendum the UK might even vote to withdraw from the EU, regardless of whether it was in their best interests or not. I have no easy answer for this. Should they get a vote? It's up to them to make it an election issue. I suspect that if Cameron was elected he would not guarantee to put future treaties to a vote...

Ix.

ei.sdraob

jhegarty wrote: »

Interesting , I must admit I didn't know that.

yea due to a certain fella called Adolf who used referendums to gain more power

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg


and they are also not allowed in Italy on foreign matters, due to another fella called Mussolini

Max Power1

of course - it should have been put to an EU-wide referendum. All these Yes pushers that are pro EU integration - theres a perfect situation to get interacting with the whole of Europe, lets all have a referendum the same day.

Why does this not happen you ask? Well the treaty hasnt a hope of being passed!

marco_polo

Max Power1 wrote: »

of course - it should have been put to an EU-wide referendum. All these Yes pushers that are pro EU integration - theres a perfect situation to get interacting with the whole of Europe, lets all have a referendum the same day.

Why does this not happen you ask? Well the treaty hasnt a hope of being passed!

A Europe wide referendum sounds a bit too federalist for my liking.

humanji

Max Power1 wrote: »

of course - it should have been put to an EU-wide referendum. All these Yes pushers that are pro EU integration - theres a perfect situation to get interacting with the whole of Europe, lets all have a referendum the same day.

Why does this not happen you ask? Well the treaty hasnt a hope of being passed!

Or maybe they realise there's no point in asking the people because the majority don't give a f*ck, as they have elected people to take care of these things for them.

Max Power1

humanji wrote: »

Or maybe they realise there's no point in asking the people because the majority don't give a f*ck, as they have elected people to take care of these things for them.

I would beg to differ. Im sure a lot of EU skeptics in say the UK for example would be quite pleased to have the chance to vote on Lisbon.

meglome

Max Power1 wrote: »

of course - it should have been put to an EU-wide referendum. All these Yes pushers that are pro EU integration - theres a perfect situation to get interacting with the whole of Europe, lets all have a referendum the same day.

Why does this not happen you ask? Well the treaty hasnt a hope of being passed!

So you have no idea why some country's have banned binding referenda? You haven't been watching this campaign then?

meglome

Max Power1 wrote: »

I would beg to differ. Im sure a lot of EU skeptics in say the UK for example would be quite pleased to have the chance to vote on Lisbon.

The UK could easily be foolish enough to leave the EU, but that wouldn't make it a good idea in real life. The EU has been good for all the EU nations but that doesn't take away nationalistic stupidity.

Max Power1

meglome wrote: »

So you have no idea why some country's have banned binding referenda? You haven't been watching this campaign then?

Indeed I have.

It was a hypothetical question.

hatrickpatrick

Well I believe in direct democracy so in my political view a vote in parliament and a referendum should be the same thing...

humanji

Max Power1 wrote: »

I would beg to differ. Im sure a lot of EU skeptics in say the UK for example would be quite pleased to have the chance to vote on Lisbon.

Are they the majority in Europe?

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Well I believe in direct democracy so in my political view a vote in parliament and a referendum should be the same thing...

But not too much Direct democracy because that would be undemocratic.

thecornerboy

mickoneill30 wrote: »

We're not. Every country has their own ways of ratifying this treaty.
Do you think it's fair to tell other countries that their way is wrong?

This is satire right?

You're saying that holding an opinion that other nation states should hold a referendum on an issue of great importance to them is "telling other countries that their way is wrong".

What planet do you Yes-EU loons come from.