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What is the best way to reduce the PS wages?

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    #62
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    optocynic wrote: »
    Quiet simply... we are her dissatisfied customers!
    What is 'Lower middle management' anyway..?
    I'm guessing she does the work that the lazy half-wit she reports to should be doing!!!
    I am not as militant as Jimmmy, but I do believe the PS is a place for lazy feckless cheeky a55holes to hide behind union clowns!!

    This is what needs to be sorted... I have no idea how productive your GF is.. she may be a stellar worker... if so, she should be fighting to purge the lazy feckers from her office...

    Sorry, but - and I don't care if I get a ban for this - but you are talking out of your hole.
    You provided no arguments. Not even anecdotal stuff. I wonder have you even seen a PS office from inside once in your live? All you say is 'I believe'.

    Well I believe all sorts of things but I won't throw them around unless I can provide at least some sort of backup.

    If you have nothing to add beyond what you said here than there is simply no point of talking to someone like you.


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    #63
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    realcam wrote: »
    So after twenty years she slowly went to about just over 30k and was hit twice recently. How is she for example living way beyond her means when for instance teachers and nurses start on that? Would you call it fair if she was hit hard?

    I do not think she should be hit hard. Given the average p.s. salary is close to 50k, your g/f is among the lower paid of the p.s.....in fact after completion of service the average p.s. must be on near the same pension as much as your g/f gets for working ! ( due to age, promotion, 50% of finishing salary + lump sum etc etc ). The medium and high earners in the p.s. should be hit most. I know a lady in a responsible position with an american multinational...after nearly 20 years work, and with a diploma, she is in the 30 to 40 k a year bracket too. Yet , as reported in the media over the weekend, ( front page headlines in broadsheet ) there are people in the public service on 700k a year.


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    #64
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    realcam wrote: »
    I know this is going to sound like 'but not me please' but I can provide some anecdotal evidence here.
    My GF is for over twenty years in the PS and eventually she made it into lower middle management and she's actually doing a job, not like copying stuff or sitting on her arse all day or whatever some of the jimmys and irish_bobs are telling us what basically all PS people do all day long.

    So after twenty years she slowly went to about just over 30k and was hit twice recently. How is she for example living way beyond her means when for instance teachers and nurses start on that? Would you call it fair if she was hit hard? After all she was on crap money for all those years when we all made significantly more and she stayed on it for job security and a pension - which by the way is not 'fat' by any means (again reference to jimmiys and irish_bobs here), its just a pension.
    Who are we to tell her now that the job security thing wasnt really meant like that and she better go back to crap money?

    Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to make a general case. It can, however, be used fairly to prove or indicate that within a generality or an average there are particular instances that have different characteristics, and might merit different treatment.

    I cannot comment on your GF's case because I don't know enough about it. I suspect that you or she might not be in a position to make an informed judgement either, because to do so would require that you have a great deal of knowledge and understanding of what is involved in many other jobs in order to compare (I might be wrong in that).

    Because there might be anomalous cases, I think a comprehensive benchmarking system is the best road to take. I know that this would take time, and that time is against us. Perhaps thought might be given to an interim adjustment in PS pay, and then proceed with benchmarking with retrospective adjustment.
    optocynic wrote: »
    Quiet simply... we are her dissatisfied customers!

    Without knowing the work she does and how well she does it, such dissatisfaction can be based only on prejudice.
    I'm guessing she does the work that the lazy half-wit she reports to should be doing!!!
    I am not as militant as Jimmmy, but I do believe the PS is a place for lazy feckless cheeky a55holes to hide behind union clowns!!

    This is what needs to be sorted... I have no idea how productive your GF is.. she may be a stellar worker... if so, she should be fighting to purge the lazy feckers from her office...

    Not as militant as jimmmy? For the most part, jimmmy attacks pay and pension rates. You are trying to paint a picture of PS employees as work-dodgers. Sure, if you look, you can find some, but the overwhelming majority of PS staff do their jobs to the best of their ability.


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    #65
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    realcam wrote: »
    Sorry, but - and I don't care if I get a ban for this - but you are talking out of your hole.
    You provided no arguments. Not even anecdotal stuff. I wonder have you even seen a PS office from inside once in your live? All you say is 'I believe'.

    Well I believe all sorts of things but I won't throw them around unless I can provide at least some sort of backup.

    If you have nothing to add beyond what you said here than there is simply no point of talking to someone like you.

    Talking out of my hole?.. hmmm

    Well, here is actual evidence.. annual increments regardless of performance are a farce..
    Have I seen a PS office from the inside?..
    I have done several projects for PS offices.. and their side have always been lazy, slow and in some cases downright stupid! So yes... I have seen several from the inside.. and was not impressed with the 'workers'..

    So.. since I suggested that your GF not get hit hard (if at all).. you still choose to throw your toys outta the pram.. like a pissy union rep!..
    Obtuse and childish!.

    It was my recommendation, that if your GF was in fact a good worker, she should NOT have her pay cut.. All proposed cuts should be based on productivity... and in some cases, where productivity is non existant.. the jobs themselves should be cut!


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    #66
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to make a general case. It can, however, be used fairly to prove or indicate that within a generality or an average there are particular instances that have different characteristics, and might merit different treatment.

    I cannot comment on your GF's case because I don't know enough about it. I suspect that you or she might not be in a position to make an informed judgement either, because to do so would require that you have a great deal of knowledge and understanding of what is involved in many other jobs in order to compare (I might be wrong in that).

    Because there might be anomalous cases, I think a comprehensive benchmarking system is the best road to take. I know that this would take time, and that time is against us. Perhaps thought might be given to an interim adjustment in PS pay, and then proceed with benchmarking with retrospective adjustment.



    Without knowing the work she does and how well she does it, such dissatisfaction can be based only on prejudice.



    Not as militant as jimmmy? For the most part, jimmmy attacks pay and pension rates. You are trying to paint a picture of PS employees as work-dodgers. Sure, if you look, you can find some, but the overwhelming majority of PS staff do their jobs to the best of their ability.

    I am NOT tarring them all with the same brush at all. I am claiming that there are some in the PS that are lazy malcontents.. draining the system... and damaging the credibility of their hard working collegues..
    Add this to the petulant unions bosses... and they are NOT well represented..


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    #67
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Fighting with each other isn't quite the same as discussion. People should cool down a little, or bans will be used.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #68
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    For the most part, jimmmy attacks pay and pension rates. You are trying to paint a picture of PS employees as work-dodgers. Sure, if you look, you can find some, but the overwhelming majority of PS staff do their jobs to the best of their ability.

    But is the taxpayer getting value for money ? Many PS staff do their jobs to the best of their ability - nobody disputes that. Yet their pay + pensions are certainly among the highest if not the highest in the world - no p.s. employee can find higher average pay rates in any other country. Doing a job "to the best of their ability" sounds grand, but why do teachers work 735 hours a year in this country as opposed to 1200 hours in the OECD ? Doing a job "to the best of their ability" sounds grand, but do employees paid by direct debit really need to be paid half an hour to cash their cheque,just because they always did ? Do some p.s. need to be paid for a day before Xmas to do their shopping ? Doing a job "to the best of their ability" sounds grand, but why are their 15000 p.s. employees in the dept of Agriculture for only 100,000 full time farmers ?
    And how come as many are working in the govt planning departments now, when far far fewer developers / people are applying for planning permission ? Doing a job "to the best of their ability" sounds grand, but when the head of our central bank ( the highest paid in the world ) makes a mess , it it ok to excuse him, because he is / was p.s. and just doing a job to the best of his ability ? And what about the average of 19 sickies a year in the HSE ? Previous p.s. posters have tried to explain that by saying workers are more likely to get sick in hospitals ....but wht do workers in most other foreign hospitals not get sick as much ?
    Just because many or most of the p.s. do jobs "to the best of their ability" does not mean things should be or remain as they are. You could argue most other p.s. workers in the world do "jobs to the best of their ability"....are they not entitled to Irish rewards + conditions ?


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    #69
    deise blue
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭deise blue


    optocynic wrote: »
    Quiet simply... we are her dissatisfied customers!
    What is 'Lower middle management' anyway..?
    I'm guessing she does the work that the lazy half-wit she reports to should be doing!!!
    I am not as militant as Jimmmy, but I do believe the PS is a place for lazy feckless cheeky a55holes to hide behind union clowns!!

    This is what needs to be sorted... I have no idea how productive your GF is.. she may be a stellar worker... if so, she should be fighting to purge the lazy feckers from her office...
    And not a fact in sight to support your ridiculous assertions !


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    #70
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    deise blue wrote: »
    And not a fact in sight to support your ridiculous assertions !

    My assertion that there are lazy people in the PS, hiding behind reckless unions is ridiculous?... Are you serious?

    Now, once again, since the PS side seem to be quiet knee-jerkish... I am not saying ALL or evn most in the PS are lazy...
    But some are... and they should be purged... and the useful people rewarded in a manner they deserve...


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    #71
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    optocynic wrote: »
    I am NOT tarring them all with the same brush at all. I am claiming that there are some in the PS that are lazy malcontents.. draining the system... and damaging the credibility of their hard working collegues...

    That's not quite consistent with your response to realcam's first post about his GF's situation.


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    #72
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    That's not quite consistent with your response to realcam's first post about his GF's situation.

    I had ommitted my complete opinion from the reply... I felt my previous posts were clear enough on my rational feelings here.

    A person attempting to be pedantic because I didn't write an essay, in an attempt to steer their arguements is a poor form of debate...

    I clearly said, I do not know realcam's gf... and that she may be a stellar worker.. and if she is, she should be angered by the lazy wasters in her office...


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    #73
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    optocynic wrote: »
    I had ommitted my complete opinion from the reply... I felt my previous posts were clear enough on my rational feelings here.

    A person attempting to be pedantic because I didn't write an essay, in an attempt to steer their arguements is a poor form of debate...

    I clearly said, I do not know realcam's gf... and that she may be a stellar worker.. and if she is, she should be angered by the lazy wasters in her office...

    How do you know if there are lazy workers in her office?

    If you want anything other than a poor form of debate, temperate language is to be commended.


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    #74
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    When we set up the "realcam's GF" forum, there will be plenty of time to debate this. Otherwise, this thread has moved too far in the direction of the personal - even though I appreciate the lady is being discussed only as an example, this discussion can either come back onto topic, or be closed.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #75
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    When we set up the "realcam's GF" forum...

    Can we not just have a special thread for her?


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    #76
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    to get back on topic, I think the best and quickest way to reduce p.s. wages is to apply % reductions in different bands ; the size of the percentage reductions and the thresholds are a different matter.

    eg Those between 40 and 70 k should get a x % cut
    those in the public service get cut y % on the next 100 grand of income, and so on.

    Of course public sector pensions should be cut too ; eg there are some ex- p.s. employees on pensions of double and triple the average industrial wage : they do not need this, and the country cannot afford it.


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    #77
    Fat_Fingers
    Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Fat_Fingers


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    When we set up the "realcam's GF" forum, there will be plenty of time to debate this. Otherwise, this thread has moved too far in the direction of the personal - even though I appreciate the lady is being discussed only as an example, this discussion can either come back onto topic, or be closed.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    lol, oh man.. that was a good one. I think we all needed a bit of a good humor here. Thanks . :)


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    #78
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    they did offer early retirement schemes but nobody took them up,only thing i notice was this pension levy etc that teachers and other servants took early retirement to avoid been taxed again,dont think there is a way to reduce wages,its just something they wont touch like means testing child benefit*which like the welfare system favours the well off if you fiddle with the books enough...


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    #79
    dny123456
    Closed Accounts Posts: 431 ✭✭dny123456


    Just saw on the news, that in the UK, the conservatives have proposed capping the public sector pensions to 50K Sterling. A brave political party like that, promising cuts before an election. Here's hoping someone here, will sometime follow suit. That's 55K Euro cap for pensions. Would it be possible?


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    #80
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    When we set up the "realcam's GF" forum, there will be plenty of time to debate this. Otherwise, this thread has moved too far in the direction of the personal - even though I appreciate the lady is being discussed only as an example, this discussion can either come back onto topic, or be closed.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw

    I'm slightly embarrassed now. I hope she never sees this...


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    #81
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    to get back on topic, I think the best and quickest way to reduce p.s. wages is to apply % reductions in different bands ; the size of the percentage reductions and the thresholds are a different matter.
    As you know jimmmy, mortages being repaid to the private sector are among the highest in the known world. These mortgages are a contract based on the agreed value of a property and the anticipated income of the mortagee. Economists employed by subsidieries of the same banks who granted the mortgages are calling for wage cuts. Will these banks also adjust the other side of the equation and reduce the capital repayments based on new market realities?


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    #82
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    dny123456 wrote: »
    Just saw on the news, that in the UK, the conservatives have proposed capping the public sector pensions to 50K Sterling. A brave political party like that, promising cuts before an election. Here's hoping someone here, will sometime follow suit. That's 55K Euro cap for pensions. Would it be possible?

    Tories are promising a lot of things, some of which don't add up. Capping pensions is a decent way of cutting costs, but overpaid workers are also a problem.

    A massive problem with the public sector is that the rewards for hard-work aren't especially high anyway, so any attempts to cut wages at a higher level could stagnate it even more...


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    #83
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    As you know jimmmy, mortages being repaid to the private sector are among the highest in the known world. These mortgages are a contract based on the agreed value of a property and the anticipated income of the mortagee. Economists employed by subsidieries of the same banks who granted the mortgages are calling for wage cuts. Will these banks also adjust the other side of the equation and reduce the capital repayments based on new market realities?

    No!

    You were dumb enough to take out the big mortgage, you knew the dangers. Suck it up like the rest of us. It's what grown-ups do!


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