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Blair most likely WILL be president

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2456

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    #32
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    turgon wrote: »
    So you openly admit you haven't even informed yourself about the issue? Because it is an elected position, ye know.

    For informational purpose can you explain how he/she would be elected democratically?


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    #33
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    procure11 wrote: »
    Paulie,are you giving up already?
    It is still too close to call as far as I know

    No, Procure, I am not giving up. I have put another 50.00 euro on a NO vicotry with BetFair. Great odds, 15-1.


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    #34
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    procure11 wrote: »
    For informational purpose can you explain how he/she would be elected democratically?

    The would be elected by QMV by the European Council. The Council comprises the 27 Heads of Government of the 27 EU member states. Those heads of government are all elected as heads of government in their respective states through national democratic elections.


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    #35
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    procure11 wrote: »
    For informational purpose can you explain how he/she would be elected democratically?

    Elected by the European Council. Sorry, I know you dont like to hear it but tis the fact. Article 15 Section 5 Lisbon TEU.


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    #36
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    The would be elected by QMV by the European Council. The Council comprises the 27 Heads of Government of the 27 EU member states. Those heads of government are all elected as heads of government in their respective states through national elections.

    Thats sounds more like elitist concensus than an election tbh!


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    #37
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    procure11 wrote: »
    For informational purpose can you explain how he/she would be elected democratically?

    For the last 33 years the President of the European Council has never been elected.


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    #38
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    procure11 wrote: »
    Thats sounds more like elitist concensus than an election tbh!

    The same elites that were elected head of government in their respective governments??? Your arguments falling apart pretty rapidly.


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    #39
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    marco_polo wrote: »
    For the last 33 years the President of the European Council has never been elected.


    The difference now is that this is a full time job akin to an head of state .


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    #40
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    procure11 wrote: »
    Thats sounds more like elitist concensus than an election tbh!

    When the Dáil ratifies a Law/Bill etc. is that 'elitist concensus'? It's called representative democracy!


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    #41
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    When the Dáil ratifies a Law/Bill etc. is that 'elitist concensus'? It's called representative democracy!

    does it worry anyone that we have to explain the diference between representative and direct democracy models in a politics forum?

    :eek:


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    #42
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    procure11 wrote: »
    The difference now is that this is a full time job akin to an head of state .

    The roll of the position isnt changing asfaik, just the method of (s)election and the length of term. I know its disappointing that it wont be the Mugabe-esque position that you want it to be but "you cant always get what you want."


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    #43
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    marco_polo wrote: »
    But looking at the TEU article here it says it is the President of the EU Council, with an extended term and a different metthod of appointment and has no mention of an EU President.

    Is your version of the treaty different to mine? :confused:

    Yes and they can change the title and term of the 'presidency' as soon as Lisbon is passed. How bout Tony Blair as EU President for 5 years?


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    #44
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    does it worry anyone that we have to explain the diference between representative and direct democracy models in a politics forum?

    Well it might not matter by tomorrow either way. Irish Democracy 1916 - 2009.


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    #45
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    procure11 wrote: »
    The difference now is that this is a full time job.

    Fixed


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    #46
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    free-man wrote: »
    Yes and they can change the title and term of the 'presidency' as soon as Lisbon is passed.

    Let me guess, by the self amending clause? :D


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    #47
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    turgon wrote: »
    The same elites that were elected head of government in their respective governments??? Your arguments falling apart pretty rapidly.

    Fairplay to you.
    The difference is that that QMV was not used in voting them in.They were voted in by popular vote(thats democracy in my opinion),if the EU felt a need to have a full time president then they should be able to bear the cost of putting that to the european people.


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    #48
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    free-man wrote: »
    Yes and they can change the title and term of the 'presidency' as soon as Lisbon is passed. How bout Tony Blair as EU President for 5 years?

    They can if all member states agree to it and amend the treaties and ratify it in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.


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    #49
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    marco_polo wrote: »
    They can if all member states agree to it and amend the treaties and ratify it in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    Exactly.


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    #50
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    procure11 wrote: »
    Fairplay to you.
    The difference is that that QMV was not used in voting them in.They were voted in by popular vote(thats democracy in my opinion),if the EU felt a need to have a full time president then they should be able to bear the cost of putting that to the european people.

    President of the European Council only.....The European Council is just one of many institutions of the EU...Do you know what actual 'powers' this 'new' president that you object to actually has??


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    #51
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    President of the European Council only.....The European Council is just one of many institutions of the EU...Do you know what actual 'powers' this 'new' president that you object to actually has??

    Of course. But my point is that any organisation that would seek to hire a man who led an illegal war based on a lie should not be blindly trusted.

    The EU may have been good for us in the past. I don't like the direction its going in now if they're willing to contemplate putting Blair on the payroll.


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    #52
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    free-man wrote: »
    Of course. But my point is that any organisation that would seek to hire a man who led an illegal war based on a lie should not be blindly trusted.

    The EU may have been good for us in the past. I don't like the direction its going in now if they're willing to contemplate putting Blair on the payroll.

    That's fair enough and I agree with you with regards to Blair and Iraq. I do not agree at all with how he handled that whole affair. He did do great work in the North though, would you agree? Anyway, I don't think it's as signed, sealed and delivered as the UK media would have us believe, that he will take up the position.


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    #53
    granite man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭granite man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    President of the European Council only.....The European Council is just one of many institutions of the EU...Do you know what actual 'powers' this 'new' president that you object to actually has??

    Well, I'm sure you'll be able to clarify for us not in the know then? He'll hardly be up for opening the odd supermarket, will he?
    What will be this unelected warmongers role?


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    #54
    CCCP^
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭CCCP^


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    That's fair enough and I agree with you with regards to Blair and Iraq. I do not agree at all with how he handled that whole affair. He did do great work in the North though, would you agree? Anyway, I don't think it's as signed, sealed and delivered as the UK media would have us believe, that he will take up the position.

    I think Iraq will far outweigh whatever gone was done in the North. So do we get to vote for the President?


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    #55
    procure11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭procure11


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    President of the European Council only.....The European Council is just one of many institutions of the EU...Do you know what actual 'powers' this 'new' president that you object to actually has??

    Well someone said earlier said he/she would have powers and not be like the president of Ireland that is a "puppet"...so that position must have some considerable form of power attached to it.
    If it was going to be a fair election ...why has sarkozy and other heads of states approved his nomination.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/blair-favourite-to-be-europes-first-president-20091002-ggjm.html


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    #56
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Anyway, I don't think it's as signed, sealed and delivered as the UK media would have us believe, that he will take up the position.

    It just screams typical mentality to me, i.e. England qualifies for the World Cup = football's coming home! etc etc, Blair is one possibility for the job (increasingly unlikely given what people in Europe are saying) and suddenly it's lauded as a given in the UK.


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    #57
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    That's fair enough and I agree with you with regards to Blair and Iraq. I do not agree at all with how he handled that whole affair. He did do great work in the North though, would you agree? Anyway, I don't think it's as signed, sealed and delivered as the UK media would have us believe, that he will take up the position.

    I agree with you on the North, he actually did a decent job there. However it's massively overshadowed by Iraq.

    I really hope the UK media is wrong, the vote's over, I'm not trying to influence anyone, I won't disappear in 2 days time.

    I'm genuinely concerned :(

    I guess we'll find out soon enough if this thing goes through.


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    #58
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    granite man wrote: »
    What will be this unelected warmongers role?
    CCCP^ wrote: »
    So do we get to vote for the President?

    Did you vote for the current President of the European Council?


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    #59
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    procure11 wrote: »
    Well someone said earlier said he/she would have powers and not be like the president of Ireland that is a "puppet"...so that position must have some considerable form of power attached to it.
    If it was going to be a fair election ...why has sarkozy and other heads of states approved his nomination.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/blair-favourite-to-be-europes-first-president-20091002-ggjm.html

    While it pales in comparison to weighty evidence like someone said, going by the treaty he has no voting or executive powers.

    Alot like the current situation funnily enough.


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    #60
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    Any source for this story which is not the London Times, Telegraph or Sun?


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    #61
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,292 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    procure11 wrote: »
    Well someone said earlier said he/she would have powers and not be like the president of Ireland that is a "puppet"...so that position must have some considerable form of power attached to it.
    If it was going to be a fair election ...why has sarkozy and other heads of states approved his nomination.

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/blair-favourite-to-be-europes-first-president-20091002-ggjm.html

    These are the 'powers' from the Lisbon Treaty:
    Lisbon Treaty wrote:
    6. The President of the European Council:
    (a) shall chair it and drive forward its work;
    (b) shall ensure the preparation and continuity of the work of the European Council in cooperation
    with the President of the Commission, and on the basis of the work of the General Affairs Council;
    (c) shall endeavour to facilitate cohesion and consensus within the European Council;
    (d) shall present a report to the European Parliament after each of the meetings of the
    European Council.
    The President of the European Council shall, at his level and in that capacity, ensure the external
    representation of the Union on issues concerning its common foreign and security policy, without
    prejudice to the powers of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.
    The President of the European Council shall not hold a national office.

    Are they 'considerable'?


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