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Tallys & Results in the morning.

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    #122
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    Sam Vimes wrote: »

    The matter was important to them last time but they thought the result was in the bag and it probably was until Ganley et all showed up. The failings of the Irish government, while many and varied, are irrelevant to whether the treaty would be good for the country and the EU or not. What we got last time was not the will of the people, it was the will of Declan Ganley and Gerry Adams who fooled the people.

    See there you go making the conclusion that the people make the wrong choice.You as an oridnary person are entitled to your view on that.

    The Government isnt though. The Government is supposed to represent its people and if the people make a decision, give an order, adopt a policy or whatever by referednum then it is supposed to execute that decision.

    It does not have the right to have its own view that the people got it wrong and that is exactly what has happened. Otherwise as i have said repeatly at this point it is only pretense to ask the people.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Also, as Mike65 says we already have a precedent for multiple votes

    That doesnt make it right. It only further serves to allow the Government to f**k up in the future because we'll give them another shot at it.


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    #123
    dan719
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭dan719


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Please read the preceding few pages to see how it's not a lie

    It is a lie. Companies are shedding jobs in Ireland by the bucketload, will Monday morning see all those newly unemployed rehired?


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    #124
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    Dinner wrote: »
    Delighted with the Kildare North results;

    Yes - 76.2
    No - 23.8

    Up 21.6% on the last referendum.

    Christ. Didnt expect KN to jump that much.
    Although informally on the station yesterday i definatly felt it was going to be 2/1 in favour.


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    #125
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    Agent J wrote: »

    The Government isnt though. The Government is supposed to represent its people and if the people make a decision, give an order, adopt a policy or whatever by referednum then it is supposed to execute that decision.

    they probably would had been told to go to f#ck if they asked people to vote on nama....


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    #126
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    dan719 wrote: »
    It is a lie. Companies are shedding jobs in Ireland by the bucketload, will Monday morning see all those newly unemployed rehired?

    all down to labour cost my friend,thats why im suspicious about ryanair/intel asking people to vote yes...


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    #127
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    dan719 wrote: »
    What we got today was the result of scaremongering and downright lies regarding the impact on our economy were we to vote no. Do we go again in six months?

    Well... IMO... The stuff the NO campaign were putting out a lot more disinformation than the YES campaign...

    Again... The 1.84 minimum wage thing, was that not a downright lie on the part of the NO camp ?


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    #128
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    bauderline wrote: »
    Well... IMO... The stuff the NO campaign were putting out a lot more disinformation than the YES campaign...

    Again... The 1.84 minimum wage thing, was that not a downright lie on the part of the NO camp ?

    I think that the No camp gets to claim more credit for the Yes vote the the actual yes vote do.


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    #129
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Agent J wrote: »
    See there you go making the conclusion that the people make the wrong choice.You as an oridnary person are entitled to your view on that.

    The Government isnt though. The Government is supposed to represent its people and if the people make a decision, give an order, adopt a policy or whatever by referednum then it is supposed to execute that decision.

    It does not have the right to have its own view that the people got it wrong and that is exactly what has happened. Otherwise as i have said repeatly at this point it is only pretense to ask the people.



    That doesnt make it right. It only further serves to allow the Government to f**k up in the future because we'll give them another shot at it.

    The problem is this...

    It would appear that most people who voted NO last time did not have a problen voting a second time on the issue, if they did, they would have either voted NO again or not voted at all. Given the fact that the turnout was up it is unlikely that they abstained. They voted again and they voted YES which would indicate they welcomed the opportunity to change their mind.

    If that's not democratic I don't know what the hell is....

    You have an opinion, and you are entitled to it, but you are clearly in a minority....


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    #130
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Agent J wrote: »
    I think that the No camp gets to claim more credit for the Yes vote the the actual yes vote do.

    the 1.84 things was clearly absurd. you might aswell say 25c a pint. what was far more odious was the lies by the peoples movement, ukip et al about workers rights where they took quotes from the labour court and changed them to support their view when they clearly said the opposite

    http://www.people.ie/leaflet/lisbon2.pdf

    http://www.teeu.ie/downloads_teeu/La...trical_REA.pdf

    i hope people bear these in mind the next time these people pop up again. although i cannot see ukip getting involved again


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    #131
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Agent J wrote: »
    I think that the No camp gets to claim more credit for the Yes vote the the actual yes vote do.

    There's a lot of truth in that. The No campaign went too far with the lying this time and a lot of people knew enough about the treaty and the issues to know it.


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    #132
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Agent J wrote: »
    I think that the No camp gets to claim more credit for the Yes vote the the actual yes vote do.

    In fairness to you, that is correct, that is the problem right there. If NO campaign had credible reasons for voting NO then why could they not articulate this in their campaign ?

    I would imagine a lot of people thought to themselves .... "If they can't come up with valid reason to vote NO then we will hedge our bets and vote YES in the hope it brings some benifits..."

    I agree the NO campaign went along way to getting the treaty passed.... no question about it....


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    #133
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    bauderline wrote: »
    The problem is this...

    It would appear that most people who voted NO last time did not have a problen voting a second time on the issue, if they did, they would have either voted NO again or not voted at all. Given the fact that the turnout was up it is unlikely that they abstained. They voted again and they voted YES which would indicate they welcomed the opportunity to change their mind.

    If that's not democratic I don't know what the hell is....

    You have an opinion, and you are entitled to it, but you are clearly in a minority....

    You assume just because someone has a problem with voting meant they didnt vote.

    I very much object to having to vote again as do others i know( I know that is anedotoal).It does not mean that people didnt vote because they had a problem with it.

    It still does not address the issue of the actions of the Government as a reaction to our orignal vote though. They expressed a view that we got it wrong or at the very least acted as such.


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    #134
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    meglome wrote: »
    There's a lot of truth in that. The No campaign went too far with the lying this time and a lot of people knew enough about the treaty and the issues to know it.

    Aside from that.

    I'll give you the best quote i got on the station yesterday from a voter
    (This was after he voted and there was no one else on the room before anyone accuses of bias)

    "Take power away from the Irish government. Vote yes!"

    I personally think its more to do with a perception that Europe will probably saving our asses from our own government.


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    #135
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Agent J wrote: »
    You assume just because someone has a problem with voting meant they didnt vote.

    I very much object to having to vote again as do others i know( I know that is anedotoal).It does not mean that people didnt vote because they had a problem with it.

    It still does not address the issue of the actions of the Government as a reaction to our orignal vote though. They expressed a view that we got it wrong or at the very least acted as such.

    I think this is were you and I differ....

    I believe that we elect a government to run the country for us and act in the best interest of the country. (I know that's very debatable!) If the government believes that a NO vote is not in the best interest of the state I believe that they are entitled to try to persuade us to change our minds and put the question to us a second time... perfectly valid....


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    #136
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Biffo speaking.... you'd think he would be a bit happier about it....


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    #137
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    how was the no side lying?,look at irish ferries,he registered the company to cyprus so he could pay them cyrpriot rates and not one thing was done to stop all this..


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    #138
    EverEvolving
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭EverEvolving


    Yeah.. I'm off to euthanise my gran, that will has been a long time coming ... oh wait... has it not come in yet??


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    #139
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Fred83 wrote: »
    how was the no side lying?,look at irish ferries,he registered the company to cyprus so he could pay them cyrpriot rates and not one thing was done to stop all this..

    That indeed is a loophole that needs to be addressed, however it has sweet FA to do with the Lisbon treaty. A YES or NO to Lisbon does not impact upon this particular problem.

    The LISBON treaty WILL NOT impact our minimum wage, to suggest otherwise, as the NO campaign was doing was a complete and utter lie....


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    #140
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    Agent J wrote: »
    "Take power away from the Irish government. Vote yes!"

    And you could see how one arrives at that conclusion. What can you say to that?


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    #141
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    bauderline wrote: »
    I think this is were you and I differ....

    I believe that we elect a government to run the country for us and act in the best interest of the country. (I know that's very debatable!) If the government believes that a NO vote is not in the best interest of the state I believe that they are entitled to try to persuade us to change our minds and put the question to us a second time... perfectly valid....

    We'll have to agree to disagree then on this point

    My point as stated previously differs. In doing what you have outlined it means the government formed an opinion that the people made the wrong decision and i personally believe it shouldnt have that ability.


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    #142
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    bauderline wrote: »
    The LISBON treaty WILL NOT impact our minimum wage, to suggest otherwise, as the NO campaign was doing was a complete and utter lie....

    Not tomorrow, no. But in the medium/long term that's a statement I'd be very careful with.


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    #143
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    EverEvolving wrote: »
    Yeah.. I'm off to euthanise my gran, that will has been a long time coming ... oh wait... has it not come in yet??

    You've had your eye on that clothes mangle for a long time...haven't you !! ;)


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    #144
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    realcam wrote: »
    And you could see how one arrives at that conclusion. What can you say to that?

    Nothing.


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    #145
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    yes but the goverment doesnt look after the best intrest of the country,the public sector is a golden goose for blatant waste of money,high pensions,and feck all in return,if it was a business it would had been shut down a long time ago because it doesnt produce must of an income,i have feeling the ordinary taxpayer will be brought back to the 1980's again of been taxed to death because the goverment is so scared of the unions of the public service that the taxpayer will be easier picking to make up for it...


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    #146
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Fred83 wrote: »
    yes but the goverment doesnt look after the best intrest of the country,the public sector is a golden goose for blatant waste of money,high pensions,and feck all in return,if it was a business it would had been shut down a long time ago because it doesnt produce must of an income,i have feeling the ordinary taxpayer will be brought back to the 1980's again of been taxed to death because the goverment is so scared of the unions of the public service that the taxpayer will be easier picking to make up for it...

    That's a whole other argument..... however you'll find me standing right beside you on that one !!! No argument with the statement above !!


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    #147
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Fred83 wrote: »
    how was the no side lying?,look at irish ferries,he registered the company to cyprus so he could pay them cyrpriot rates and not one thing was done to stop all this..

    They were lying because that has nothing to do with the treaty


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