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The backtracking has already started!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    turgon wrote: »
    Wait for the No side backtracking begins. Were all about to find out abortion and euthanasia and 1.84 wont be brought in, and that democracy still lives.
    To be fair-these sort of crazy claims were made by the lunatics and we all know that and most of us knew these were non-issues. The "yes for jobs" posters were erected by mainstream political parties and now Lenihan is already claiming they did no such thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    "Yes to jobs" is fairly easy to understand

    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭natsuko


    This is interesting...

    Someone sayin that the yes campaign didnt imply that a yes vote would be good for employment and another saying that the minimum wage issue IS something that is to be looked at???

    Oh and the most brainwashin poster i saw was the sean kelly one... "Yes to Sport"... i mean... wtf???

    uh, it makes me sick to the stomach that the majority of the voters are just sheep... anyone who voted yes without even understanding the whole thing are crazy... like i said to a friend who flipped a coin to vote(and came out yes)... "would you take a drink from a stranger without knowing what was in it???" ... but us being irish it was a stupid example.... :P

    Anyway, so can we(the No side) ask for another vote cos we didnt get our own way??? No? Didnt think so...


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Well, I am guessing the no side will need to do some back tracking when in three years time we still have no abortion, no military conscription, when Ireland will not be an aircraft carrier and the minimum wage is not €1.84

    Oh wait scrub the last one, Coir backtracked on that one before the vote.
    But the no side (I'm on it but not a lunatic on any fringe) aren't in government and aren't the ones now backtracking about the jobs promises (which now appear (already) to have been lies).


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    its directly implied. Vote yes to jobs would infer that the opposite vote would have the opposite result. Simple really
    Rosco1982 wrote: »
    I'd imagine it was from the "Yes to Europe, Yes to Jobs" posters.

    Lads if you read back on the posts in here we were all saying (Yes campaigners) that a no vote might be bad for jobs and a Yes vote could be good for jobs. We gave reasons why we thought this but at no stage did anyone promise jobs.


    And to put it another way...
    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    Well, I am guessing the no side will need to do some back tracking when in three years time we still have no abortion, no military conscription, when Ireland will not be an aircraft carrier and the minimum wage is not €1.84

    Oh wait scrub the last one, Coir backtracked on that one before the vote.

    Coir are a minority. Please stop lumping all us No voters together.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    turgon wrote: »
    Wait for the No side backtracking begins. Were all about to find out abortion and euthanasia and 1.84 wont be brought in, and that democracy still lives.

    That was part of the 'no' campaign's problem.

    They backtracked before the vote.

    Numerous figures on the no side disagreed with one another (run an image search of Declan Ganley and you're likely to find anti-Libertas propaganda produced by Sinn Fein).

    Patricia McKenna was too honest to give credence to the 1.84 claim. Even Coir backtracked on this ('we did put a question mark at the end')

    Ultimately the yes vote came down to the fact that

    1) People were afraid of being thrown out of the EU or sidelined in terms of grants and fiscal liquidity

    2) The public's confidence was shot due to the unanimous party support for Lisbon (so the people were seemingly fighting both the government parties, and the EU at the same time), and the fact that voting did not produce a veto of Lisbon.

    3) Some sort of compromise seemed to have been reached with regards to the guarantees.

    I liked how 'no' campaigners gave out free copies of the Lisbon Treaty to the public at the last vote. Wouldn't have minded seeing that again. Should have given one to Biffo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    meglome wrote: »
    Lads if you read back on the posts in here we were all saying (Yes campaigners) that a no vote might be bad for jobs and a Yes vote could be good for jobs. We gave reasons why we thought this but at no stage did anyone promise jobs.
    Perhaps "yes for jobs" posters hanging off lamp posts was at best disingenuous then, eh?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 odoylerulez


    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.

    Exactly i understand your point. I can see how you would believe this. After all remember who can take from from a simple 'no' vote that the people really mean yes. This is the government and its supporters logic my friends. Fuzzy if you will.

    I mean yes to jobs its not just a conjob to take advantage of an economic recession and play on people's fears promising them jobs if you vote for lisbon. Not at all it means something entirely different. Who would have thought 3 simple words could have so many conjugations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    meglome wrote: »
    Lads if you read back on the posts in here we were all saying (Yes campaigners) that a no vote might be bad for jobs and a Yes vote could be good for jobs. We gave reasons why we thought this but at no stage did anyone promise jobs.


    And to put it another way...

    What about the 'recovery ==> Lisbon' poster?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.

    The Yes campaign lied.

    That's how reality works


  • Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭natsuko


    O and not to mind our leading broadcaster, the one we trust to provide us with accurate and fair accounts of matters, are biased.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    murphaph wrote: »
    Perhaps "yes for jobs" posters hanging off lamp posts was at best disingenuous then, eh?
    meglome wrote: »
    Lads if you read back on the posts in here we were all saying (Yes campaigners) that a no vote might be bad for jobs and a Yes vote could be good for jobs. We gave reasons why we thought this but at no stage did anyone promise jobs.
    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.

    Lads you seem to have reading different things to me. I think it's quite clear from my post and AtomicHorror's what us Yes campaigners thought. And which we said in here on numerous occasions.

    To be honest I'm fairly feckin astonished that after the number of times we discussed the whole 'yes for jobs' poster that none of you actually bothered to read what we kept saying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭moondogspot




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 odoylerulez


    Yes the one whose board is appointed by the government. But no real surprise in the coverage by them during the referendum. Some of it was downright hilarious in the extremes of support for the yes campaign. They proved very effective at fooling your average gombeen to which there are many populating these isles apparently. Now back to eastenders! I wonder if charlie is getting married!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,526 ✭✭✭Peckham


    I'm still waiting for one person who voted Yes to be of the opinion that the "Yes to Jobs" was a direct promise that jobs would be created as a result of a vote in this way. The only people who seem to be making such a link are those on the No side.

    In the same way that I'd be surprised if anyone voting No actually believed that a Yes vote would lead to the end of Irish democracy.

    You have to give enough credit to people that they are intelligent enough to distinguish between political hyperbole and promise.

    Many people (including me) voted Yes for reasons of economic recovery (which links in turn leads to jobs) on the basis that we're better off in the heart of Europe than on the margins of Europe. As one of the academics on RTE said about an hour ago - much of what happens in the EU is based on negotiations, bargaining and compromise - compromises wouldn't be in our favour if we had voted No.

    This is what I took the "Yes to jobs" to mean.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,025 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I knew all along that Lisbon wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to our economic prospects. The problems are most all internal to Ireland after all. I am just a little surprised at how quickly the Minister for Finance is now backtracking.

    Lisbon never meant more jobs for Ireland. if anything it'll see faster EU expansion and more jobs leaving Ireland for even lower cost economies. That's what happened after Nice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭whatisayis


    meglome wrote: »
    Did they promise jobs for a yes vote? references?

    http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/-/images/feature/blenihan_20sept09_600.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    What about the 'recovery ==> Lisbon' poster?

    That really grinded my gears.. do you know which group it is that endorsed that one?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 odoylerulez


    Peckham wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for one person who voted Yes to be of the opinion that the "Yes to Jobs" was a direct promise that jobs would be created as a result of a vote in this way. The only people who seem to be making such a link are those on the No side.

    In the same way that I'd be surprised if anyone voting No actually believed that a Yes vote would lead to the end of Irish democracy.

    You have to give enough credit to people that they are intelligent enough to distinguish between political hyperbole and promise.

    Many people (including me) voted Yes for reasons of economic recovery (which links in turn leads to jobs) on the basis that we're better off in the heart of Europe than on the margins of Europe. As one of the academics on RTE said about an hour ago - much of what happens in the EU is based on negotiations, bargaining and compromise - compromises wouldn't be in our favour if we had voted No.

    This is what I took the "Yes to jobs" to mean.

    You do realise switzerland is the most economically successful country in the world right now and the only country to have overtaken the usa as the worlds number one economy. They aren't a member of the E.U either. Did you know that as well? So much for your 'we'd rather be in then on the margins theory'

    On March the 4th, 2001, 77.3% of the Swiss people have rejected in a popular vote an initiative to join the EU. This is a clear an expression of the people's will you can get. Joining the EU is not on Switzerland's agenda.




    ********


    Switzerland Overtakes US In Global Competitiveness Rankings, by Ulrika Lomas, Tax-News.com, Brussels
    Thursday, September 17, 2009

    Switzerland tops the overall ranking in The Global Competitiveness Report 2009-2010, released today by the World Economic Forum. The United States falls one place to second position, with weakening in its financial markets and macroeconomic stability.

    Singapore, Sweden and Denmark round out the top five. European economies continue to prevail in the top ten with Finland, Germany and the Netherlands following suit. The United Kingdom, while remaining very competitive, has continued its fall from last year, moving down one more place this year to 13th, mainly attributable to continuing weakening of its financial markets.



    *****************

    How that non e.u membership working out for ya switzerland? Ireland says they are doomed if they don't join? Oh right...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome



    Yes and those things could and hopefully will happen. I don't see the promise.

    I'm going to go back and get the at least ten posts of mine where I talk about how these things could happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    hellboy99 wrote: »
    http://www.fiannafail.ie/page/-/imag...sept09_600.jpg

    There's some "Yes for Jobs" posters there for you.

    lmao.. that one is very apt

    :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    I'll just keep posting this until people actually read it.
    meglome wrote: »
    Lads if you read back on the posts in here we were all saying (Yes campaigners) that a no vote might be bad for jobs and a Yes vote could be good for jobs. We gave reasons why we thought this but at no stage did anyone promise jobs.
    Apparently some of you didn't.

    Who would honestly translate a vague "yes to jobs" into a specific "vote yes and we promise you will get a job"? That's unreasonable. If you're going to assume a meaning, surely it would be "yes to increase the likelihood of economic recovery and thus employment", which given that a yes vote enhances our chances of attracting both foreign investment and EU funding, is true.

    Sorry if subtitles and shades of grey upset you guys, but sadly that's how reality works.

    Lads you seem to have reading different things to me. I think it's quite clear from my post and AtomicHorror's what us Yes campaigners thought. And which we said in here on numerous occasions.

    To be honest I'm fairly feckin astonished that after the number of times we discussed the whole 'yes for jobs' poster that none of you actually bothered to read what we kept saying.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    meglome wrote: »
    Yes and those things could and hopefully will happen. I don't see the promise.

    I'm going to go back and get the at least ten posts of mine where I talk about how these things could happen.

    So, the posters were all based on things that might happen? If this is the case why did the Yes side not say this? When Lenihan was questioned earlier he denied about any mention of jobs. Now that is a lie. There are pictures of him holding posters about yes to jobs and then he goes and says they didn't mention jobs. Do they think we're stupid?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    So, the posters were all based on things that might happen? If this is the case why did the Yes side not say this? When Lenihan was questioned earlier he denied about any mention of jobs. Now that is a lie. There are pictures of him holding posters about yes to jobs and then he goes and says they didn't mention jobs. Do they think we're stupid?

    Quote him. What did he say?
    Exactly i understand your point. I can see how you would believe this. After all remember who can take from from a simple 'no' vote that the people really mean yes. This is the government and its supporters logic my friends. Fuzzy if you will.

    They did no such thing. They made that assertion based on polls which showed a significant proportion of no votes made due to ignorance of the treaty contents and/or disagreement with issues not actually addressed in it. Unless you've got some evidence that this data was inaccurate?
    I mean yes to jobs its not just a conjob to take advantage of an economic recession and play on people's fears promising them jobs if you vote for lisbon. Not at all it means something entirely different. Who would have thought 3 simple words could have so many conjugations.

    Anyone with a vague grasp of English? Seriously, what proportion of the Yes votes do you think were cast on the basis of posters alone? Given that we had 47% yes vote the last time without the Jobs line being thrown out there, are you honestly suggesting that on the order of 20% of the voters made their call based on three words on a piece of plastic stuck to a pole? Should we deliver more complex messages on those posters and save the Irish people the hassle of reading the leaflets basically handed directly to them?

    I can get you having little respect for the Yes campaign. But you clearly think the Irish people are idiots too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 44 odoylerulez


    nah nah you guys have gotten it all wrong. In this new ireland Yes means no and no means yes. Jeez you guys are naieve.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    So, the posters were all based on things that might happen? If this is the case why did the Yes side not say this? When Lenihan was questioned earlier he denied about any mention of jobs. Now that is a lie. There are pictures of him holding posters about yes to jobs and then he goes and says they didn't mention jobs. Do they think we're stupid?

    I think you'll find he said there was no promise of jobs, which there wasn't - ever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,526 ✭✭✭Peckham


    You do realise switzerland is the most economically successful country in the world right now and the only country to have overtaken the usa as the worlds number one economy. They aren't a member of the E.U either. Did you know that as well? So much for your 'we'd rather be in then on the margins theory'

    Yes I did know this. However, I don't think the economic position of Ireland and Switzerland are comparable. Switzerland has always had a strong, wealthy economy and is somewhat unique in its situation (in that it relies on its independence). Our economy (probably) wouldn't have got as strong if it did without EU, and certainly won't recover fast enough without the help of Europe.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,790 ✭✭✭cornbb


    Wow just wow. No wonder this country is knee deep in recession with attitudes like that. Wouldn't want to become ever self reliant like say switzerland or sweden. Nah lets all just sit around on our a**ses and expect handouts from multinationals who pull out to china for cheaper labour costs whenever it suits them. After all they care about workers rights. Its not all about profits. Yes we owe these people our blind alligence and obediance. All hail dez magnificent super overlords!

    In some hypothetical utopia we could be self reliant. Unfortunately the REALITY is that for the last few decades we have relied on foreign multinationals and FDI, and that aint gonna change in the immediate future.

    If you don't believe the foreign multinationals, then listen to the IDA, IBEC, or any of the plethora of homegrown employers that with absolute authoritative certainty that a yes vote would facilitate the creation of jobs.


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