The backtracking has already started!

odoylerulez

Anyone with a vague grasp of English? Seriously, what proportion of the Yes votes do you think were cast on the basis of posters alone? Given that we had 47% yes vote the last time without the Jobs line being thrown out there, are you honestly suggesting that on the order of 20% of the voters made their call based on three words on a piece of plastic stuck to a pole?

***


To answer your question do you think people cast their votes on posters alone? Probably most of them not but certainly coupled with the state sponsored propaganda from our national broadcaster this would have been enough to sway people's minds. Why would they even bother to put up posters if they didn't want them to have an effect on people's decision?

Its pretty obvious what 'yes to jobs' means and stop pretending you don't know damn well what it implies. It didn't state 'yes to jobs but really what we mean is not really creating jobs but you know the general idea that perhaps in the e.u economic zone some jobs may be created leading to other jobs being created here in ireland' Thats the governments fuzzy logic again.

Most people didn't have the time to read the full text of the treaty or understand all the reprecussions of it and thats just the way the politicans like it. I can gaurentee you if they did it would be a 80 per cent no vote.

Its the democractic will of the people respected from the government and its supporters but only when it suits their agenda. But hey like i said the fun lies ahead.

overdriver

Surely this revolves around the Minister's use of the word "promise" ?

They put up posters which said " Yes To Jobs". This lead people to BELIEVE that they would get jobs if they voted Yes to Lisbon.

The fact Lenihan says he didn't actually "promise" it means nothing to me - and now they're backtracking before the votes are even all counted.

Say what you want but its disingenuous at best.

prinz

odoylerulez wrote: »

Wouldn't want to become ever self reliant like say switzerland or sweden..

You mean Sweden that's in the EU, and currently holds the EU Council presidency?

odoylerulez wrote: »

You do realise switzerland is the most economically successful country in the world right now and the only country to have overtaken the usa as the worlds number one economy. Ireland says they are doomed if they don't join? Oh right...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29#cite_note-0

Do you see the European Union, Eurozone, and European Union....

RandomName2

meglome wrote: »

I think you'll find he said there was no promise of jobs, which there wasn't - ever.

There WAS a promise of economic recovery tied directly to ratifying Lisbon

There WAS a distinct threat whereby there would be economic consequences if there was a second no.

Both of these were plain lies - and don't be hypocritical.

It would be the same as if I said that Coir didn't attempt to tap into traditional Catholic beliefs.

But what's the point - it's all over now, unless the UK gets a vote (which is so tenuous that it depends on the will of a single man in a distant land we know little about - to quote Chamberlain)

Some rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Brussels to be born

Teferi

Long Onion wrote: »

I'd like to put you all to work this minute taking down all the "vote No or the baby jeebus will cry" posters.

You lost, deal with it.

You know the one thing people hate more than a sore loser is a sore winner, right?

odoylerulez

prinz wrote: »

You mean Sweden that's in the EU, and currently holds the EU Council presidency?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29#cite_note-0

Do you see the European Union, Eurozone, and European Union....

Right.. your quoting wikipedia over MSNBC, CNN, NBC news, bbc news and the financial times. Ok then

Switzerland is a member of the european free trade association but not the E.U. Do you understand the difference or do you need to keep quoting wikipedia ?

Fuhrer

Teferi wrote: »

You know the one thing people hate more than a sore loser is a sore winner, right?

No, people hate a sore loser more.

bigpoppa

such bitter losers, the attitude of ganley, mary lou and higgins is nothing short of appalling

time to accept it folks, it was decided by the people

free-man

meglome wrote: »

I'll just keep posting this until people actually read it.
Lads you seem to have reading different things to me. I think it's quite clear from my post and AtomicHorror's what us Yes campaigners thought. And which we said in here on numerous occasions.

To be honest I'm fairly feckin astonished that after the number of times we discussed the whole 'yes for jobs' poster that none of you actually bothered to read what we kept saying.

In fairness meglome,

Shouting from the rooftops that you disagreed with the Yes for Jobs side of the Yes campaign on a political forum is fairly irrelevant.

The Yes result has come in, in large part due to these posters, scaremongering and fear have had the desired result.

What does matter is that the main political parties lied about economic recovery and are now backtracking on the day of the result.

hellboy99

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Anyone with a vague grasp of English? Seriously, what proportion of the Yes votes do you think were cast on the basis of posters alone? Given that we had 47% yes vote the last time without the Jobs line being thrown out there, are you honestly suggesting that on the order of 20% of the voters made their call based on three words on a piece of plastic stuck to a pole?

It would be interesting to have a poll done to see just how many people did vote "yes" due to the "Yes for jobs" message.

namloc1980

odoylerulez wrote: »

Right.. your quoting wikipedia over MSNBC, CNN, NBC news, bbc news and the financial times. Ok then

Switzerland is a member of the european free trade association but not the E.U. Do you understand the difference or do you need to keep quoting wikipedia ?

So you're saying that Switzerland has a bigger economy than the Eurozone.....:eek:

odoylerulez

bigpoppa wrote: »

such bitter losers, the attitude of ganley, mary lou and higgins is nothing short of appalling

time to accept it folks, it was decided by the people

In fairness though they aren't asking for the result to be cancelled and another referendum to be called because people don't properly understand all the ramifications of the treaty terms.

Fuhrer

free-man wrote: »

In fairness meglome,

Shouting from the rooftops that you disagreed with the Yes for Jobs side of the Yes campaign on a political forum is fairly irrelevant.

The Yes result has come in, in large part due to these posters, scaremongering and fear have had the desired result.

The yes vote for all the people I know came in entirely from understanding the what to vote for then making that decision.


But hey, let the side who had pictures of crying children claim the other side were scaremongering.

My name is URL

cornbb wrote: »

If you don't believe the foreign multinationals, then listen to the IDA, IBEC, or any of the plethora of homegrown employers that with absolute authoritative certainty that a yes vote would facilitate the creation of jobs.

Based on what part of the Treaty?

Where is the mention that Ireland would have been ostracised for voting No?

It was/is simply conjecture, and used to it's fullest extent by the Yes side

odoylerulez

namloc1980 wrote: »

So you're saying that Switzerland has a bigger economy than the Eurozone.....:eek:

Yes thats exactly what im sayin..... :rolleyes: Sweet jesus. Go back and read my original point and you'll understand what it was in relation to.

AtomicHorror

odoylerulez wrote: »

nah nah you guys have gotten it all wrong. In this new ireland Yes means no and no means yes. Jeez you guys are naieve.

You just cherry-picked data on a non EU country that's economically strong as evidence that the EU can't help the economy of some other country... And we're naive?

Hey, I knew this woman who drank and smoked her whole life. She lived to a ripe old age and never got cancer. Therefore, I can drink and smoke my whole life and never get cancer. It's technically true, but removes so many of the caveats and specifics of reality as to render the story meaningless. Cherry picked, single sample data is not compelling evidence.

Switzerland is not Ireland but on the basis of the "evidence" you've given us here, we could conjecture that they might well have done even better within the EU. But it would only be conjecture, because we have nothing meaningful to compare their success against, given the information at hand. So lets not pretend that your assertion is any more meaningful than this counter conjecture.

Teferi

Fuhrer wrote: »

No, people hate a sore loser more.

Nah.

Tony EH

RandomName2 wrote: »

There WAS a promise of economic recovery tied directly to ratifying Lisbon

There WAS a distinct threat whereby there would be economic consequences if there was a second no.

Both of these were plain lies - and don't be hypocritical.

It would be the same as if I said that Coir didn't attempt to tap into traditional Catholic beliefs.

But what's the point - it's all over now, unless the UK gets a vote (which is so tenuous that it depends on the will of a single man in a distant land we know little about - to quote Chamberlain)

Some rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Brussels to be born

Unfortunately, meglome's recent posts display clearly the disingenuous attitude of some "Yes" siders. First of all they constantly bleat on about "abortion" and "neutrality" being the reason why people voted "No" the first time (which is of course bull****) and then they try to back off from the blatant lies by the "Yes" campaign, this time around, such as "Yes to Jobs."

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. :rolleyes:

Fuhrer

Tony EH wrote: »

Unfortunately, meglome's recent posts display clearly the disingenuous attitude of some "Yes" siders. First of all they constantly bleat on about "abortion" and "neutrality" being the reason why people voted "No" the first time (which is of course bull****) and then they try to back off from the blatant lies by the "Yes" campaign, this time around, such as "Yes to Jobs."

Honestly, you couldn't make it up. :rolleyes:

Blatant lies?

free-man

Fuhrer wrote: »

The yes vote for all the people I know came in entirely from understanding the what to vote for then making that decision.

But hey, let the side who had pictures of crying children claim the other side were scaremongering.

What portion of No voters do you think Coir represents?

The problem is the MAINSTREAM political parties lied, not some minority religious group, mainstream political parties.

And they are now backtracking - its disgusting.

Fuhrer

free-man wrote: »

What portion of No voters do you think Coir represents?

The problem is the MAINSTREAM political parties lied, not some minority religious group, mainstream political parties.

And they are now backtracking - its disgusting.

What demonstratable lies are you talking about?

K-9

Does this mean Abortion is compulsory and the EU Army is coming?

murphaph

meglome wrote: »

I think you'll find he said there was no promise of jobs, which there wasn't - ever.

Oh please. Then they SHOULD NOT have printed posters like this. If there was no implied promise of jobs then they should have printed "a better chance of jobs" or some such if that's what they believe but not a clear and simple promise of jobs.

namloc1980

odoylerulez wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what im sayin..... :rolleyes: Sweet jesus. Go back and read my original point and you'll understand what it was in relation to.

What is your point though? Switzerland is a successful country we know that. They also have borders with some of the largest economies in the world (germany, France, Italy) and are located in the very heart of Europe.

Ireland is a small island poking out into the Atlantic. We tried going it alone in the world up until the early 70's and that wasn't very successful. Your comparison is flawed sir.

AtomicHorror

hellboy99 wrote: »

It would be interesting to have a poll done to see just how many people did vote "yes" due to the "Yes for jobs" message.

It would be nice to see some in-depth data on voting reasons and understanding of the issues overall. Hopefully similar research will be conducted this time as it was for the Lisbon 1 aftermath. I'd be very interested in seeing the relative influences of turnout, change of mind, etc.

namloc1980

K-9 wrote: »

Does this mean Abortion is compulsory and the EU Army is coming?

Seems to be....don't foget your wage will drop to €1.84 an hour as well.

Tony EH

K-9 wrote: »

Does this mean Abortion is compulsory and the EU Army is coming?

No, it doesn't and it never did and NOBODY every believed it would, or voted "No" on that basis.

odoylerulez

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You just cherry-picked data on a non EU country that's economically strong as evidence that the EU can't help the economy of some other country... And we're naive?

Hey, I knew this woman who drank and smoked her whole life. She lived to a ripe old age and never got cancer. Therefore, I can drink and smoke my whole life and never get cancer. It's technically true, but removes so many of the caveats and specifics of reality as to render the story meaningless. Cherry picked, single sample data is not compelling evidence.

Switzerland is not Ireland but on the basis of the "evidence" you've given us here, we could conjecture that they might well have done even better within the EU. But it would only be conjecture, because we have nothing meaningful to compare their success against, given the information at hand. So lets not pretend that your assertion is any more meaningful than this counter conjecture.

Correction. I cherry picked the data from the country that is the strongest and most compeditive economically in the 'world' currently. The only country to have surpassed the united states ever bar japan as the most economically compeditive. Ireland suffers currently from a lack of compedition economically which is why we find ourselves in such a mess or haven't you been paying attention?

Now bar the courtroom mumbo jumbo and vague analogies which your reffering to that would suggest that the argument put fourth by the yes side that ireland which is similar in population, size, education, infrastructure cannot succeed and would be doomed without the e.u is a falsehood. You understand?

prinz

odoylerulez wrote: »

Right.. your quoting wikipedia over MSNBC, CNN, NBC news, bbc news and the financial times. Ok then

No, actualy those tables were from the IMF. Check it out. Now if you asked me who do I trust more, CNN or the IMF...hmm tough one.

overdriver

bigpoppa wrote: »

such bitter losers, the attitude of ganley, mary lou and higgins is nothing short of appalling

time to accept it folks, it was decided by the people

Just like the last time it was decided by the people? Did the EU accept it the Government? The shrill yes-siders? No.

And as for the "attitude" of Ganley, he was very complimentary about Biffo this morning, saying his campaign had been "politically masterful". Doesn't sound like a bad loser to me. Joe Higgins said he "accepted the vote". No bad losing there either.