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The backtracking has already started!

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    #122
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Quote where the voters were called stupid or ignorant? And if you could find it, would that then make your assertions right? Why don't you cut the whither sarcasm and build an argument. Hopefully you'll be better at the former than the latter.

    They had a referendum. Had they justified a second referendum on mere assumption, then I might agree that this would imply much about their view of the electorate. But they didn't do that. They collected data, looked for specific reasons and tried to address them. Whether those reasons were accurate is beside the point. Whether the solutions were adequate is beside the point. They looked, they did not assume. They did not treat the voters like idiots, did not assume anything at all. They took the approach that the voters were being reasonable in their no vote and were open to being convinced by evidence and by efforts to address their problems. Does the yes vote prove the electorate were in fact as reasonable and rational as assumed? No, we'd need more information to see why they voted yes to establish that. But conversely, the yes vote does not indicate the electorate are stupid, fearful or easily-led.

    That is your assumption, which you are making because it is far easier to assume they're fools than that they... heaven forbid, rationally and reasonably think you are wrong.

    One thing we can see is that they are not as apathetic this time round.

    Translation: We're allowed call you fools when we dont get the result we like, when the opposite occurs low and behold you again are the fools!! It's amazing isn't it? And in case you dig up a quote of us calling you idiots its doesn't matter!!

    Seriously have you considered a job in FF PR?


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    #123
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    odoylerulez wrote: »
    Lets be honest if they truely respected the vote of the people we wouldn't be having a second vote would we?

    We wouldn't have divorce either..


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    #124
    natsuko
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭natsuko


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    The idea that we, in our full mental competence, rationality and independence, simply think you are wrong... that's just too much for you guys to take isn't it?

    Turn that statement around... Can YOU handle it?????


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    #125
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    prinz wrote: »
    We wouldn't have divorce either..


    Or more then one election.

    We already elected someone! We have to vote again? Every four years!? Thats not respecting the will of the people!


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    #126
    odoylerulez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭odoylerulez


    I made a turd cake. I showed it to my friends. They woudn't eat it. I put icing on it second time round. Hell yesssss!!!!


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    #127
    shapez
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭shapez


    Can someone please tell me what kind of a government that runs a second referendum after the people have spoken the first time to get a final answer!!! They did it with the Nice Treaty, now the Lisbon Treaty. That's not a democracy, that's boarderline dictatorship!!


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    #128
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    What demonstratable lies are you talking about?

    I think you know full well. :mad:


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    #129
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    shapez wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me what kind of a government that runs a second referendum after the people have spoken the first time to get a final answer!!!

    Um...a Fianna Fail government?


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    #130
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    free-man wrote: »
    I think you know full well. :mad:


    Can someone point out a single one?


    All ive got so far were vague, highly debatable opinions. No one has been able to go, here, this is a lie, here is the proof.


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    #131
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    shapez wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me what kind of a government that runs a second referendum after the people have spoken the first time to get a final answer!!! They did it with the Nice Treaty, now the Lisbon Treaty. That's not a democracy, that's boarderline dictatorship!!

    :confused: and I suppose Vaclav Klaus should he refuse to sign the ratification, going against the Czech Constitutional Court, the Czech Parliament, and the Czech Senate would be a defender of democracy...


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    #132
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    shapez wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me what kind of a government that runs a second referendum after the people have spoken the first time to get a final answer!!! They did it with the Nice Treaty, now the Lisbon Treaty. That's not a democracy, that's boarderline dictatorship!!

    The kind of government that addresses the concerns held by the public. The undemocratic bastards! How DARE they have the neck to address concerns. Thats BANG out of ****ING order. I demand that every issue must only ever be voted on ONCE regardless of a change in circumstances.


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    #133
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Mac daddy wrote: »
    I would like to say Thank you to all the puppets who voted yes! once again the fianna fail train has taken a load of suckers onboard AGAIN and are riding the country.

    I voted NO last time I voted NO this time.

    Well done you. You are aware that lots of no voters also voted for FF, when the issue was domestic governance, and not a euro treaty? And that either outcome of this referendum was unlikely to shift FF out of power until it's wrung from their cold dead hands anyway?

    And for those hung up on the 'Yes to jobs' posters (which were pretty inane in promoting the merits of the treaty imo) - There's no promise of jobs implied - the point (such as it is) is that FDI and EU generated jobs would be threatened by the perception that Ireland might move outside the european consensus (the two speed europe argument that could come from a rejection of the treaty). A concern supported to some degree by the statements of the big FDI players. You have to give pause when the employers say option A secures ongoing investment more than option B.


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    #134
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    shapez wrote: »
    Can someone please tell me what kind of a government that runs a second referendum after the people have spoken the first time to get a final answer!!! They did it with the Nice Treaty, now the Lisbon Treaty. That's not a democracy, that's boarderline dictatorship!!


    No Shapez, running a Referendum is what a democracy would do, a dictatorship would just implement it...



    Is this really what people believe?


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    #135
    odoylerulez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭odoylerulez


    http://www.blather.net/zeitgeist/nude_brian_cowen_toilet.jpg


    This guy can. Here he is s&&&ting all over the so called electorate of ireland.


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    #136
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    I asked you to show me when the Yes campaigners called the electorate stupid. I'm still waiting.
    odoylerulez wrote: »
    Bwahaha seriously you believe that..ok then..i mean thats ok whatever floats your boat. I mean i guess it seems plausible enough doesn't it.

    More condescending rubbish. You and UKIP have more in common than the no mantra. You're both great at defeating yourselves.

    Tell you what, how about you refute my point with evidence? Give me a good, non-speculative reason to doubt the data on why people voted no last time.
    odoylerulez wrote: »
    Lets be honest if they truely respected the vote of the people we wouldn't be having a second vote would we?

    Was it disrespect to ask about abortion more than once? Will it be disrespect the next time we go to the polls on that? Is it only respectful when you wait more than 18 months to ask again? Or is it longer?
    odoylerulez wrote: »
    Addressed their concerns? Its the same treaty.

    That'd be down to the fact that most of the concerns were not actually in the treaty. Few people on either side read the treaty, so it's quite possible for a rational, intelligent person to have developed such significant misconceptions. But kinda hard to alter what isn't there.


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    #137
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    Can someone point out a single one?


    All ive got so far were vague, highly debatable opinions. No one has been able to go, here, this is a lie, here is the proof.

    Adolf, the more you keep trying to trot out this nonsense, the more reason you are giving people not to bother with your posts.

    "Yes to jobs" is a lie. It's as much a lie as coir's "1.84" poster.


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    #138
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Adolf, the more you keep trying to trot out this nonsense, the more reason you are giving people not to bother with your posts.

    "Yes to jobs" is a lie. It's as much a lie as coir's "1.84" poster.


    How is it a lie?

    EU investment creates jobs in Ireland, you dont know that?


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    #139
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    prinz wrote: »
    :confused: and I suppose Vaclav Klaus should he refuse to sign the ratification, going against the Czech Constitutional Court, the Czech Parliament, and the Czech Senate would be a defender of democracy...

    Maybe he should ask the Czech people what they think.


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    #140
    d0gb0y
    Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭d0gb0y


    Watching the RTE coverage and I keep hearing the word mature been used by the yes side now that they got their way:(

    I voted no because of FF & NAMA which is far more important in my eyes than the eu constitution


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    #141
    odoylerulez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭odoylerulez


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    No Shapez, running a Referendum is what a democracy would do, a dictatorship would just implement it...



    Is this really what people believe?

    No your right we have an oligarchy not a democracy. Somewhere on the road to dictatorship which lisbon allows for.

    Bascially its an appearance of a democracy by the ruling elite. Whats the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy such as ours?. Your right i agree in a dictatorship they wouldn't hold a referendum too much time money and expense.

    But at least they are open about what they are instead of all the wasted time and money spent on pretending we have a democracy just to keep the average joe soap happy and not storming government buildings when he finds out the real scam that is going on.


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    #142
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    How is it a lie?

    EU investment creates jobs in Ireland, you dont know that?

    Voting "Yes" to Lisbon has NOTHING to do with creating jobs.


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    #143
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    odoylerulez wrote: »
    No your right we have an oligarchy not a democracy. Somewhere on the road to dictatorship which lisbon allows for.

    Bascially its an appearance of a democracy by the ruling elite. Whats the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy such as ours. Your right they wouldn't hold a referendum too much time money and expense. But at least they are open about what they are instead of all the wasted time and money spent on pretending we have a democracy just to keep the average joe soap happy and not storming government buildings when he finds out the real scam that is going on.


    No, its still a democracy. Im sorry if you were out the day at school when they explained those terms.


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    #144
    free-man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭free-man


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    Can someone point out a single one?

    All ive got so far were vague, highly debatable opinions. No one has been able to go, here, this is a lie, here is the proof.

    When you lose your job, have to research social welfare and return from collecting your first dole, your partner leaves you and you feel like you've no-one to turn to I'll be sure to remind you of this beautiful image.
    blenihan_20sept09_600.jpg]

    P.s. None of the above has happened to me before you say it.


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    #145
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    d0gb0y wrote: »
    I voted no because of FF & NAMA which is far more important in my eyes than the eu constitution

    It also has nothing to do with Lisbon. You have shown an immature streak by not being able to seperate issues. We were voting on Lisbon, not NAMA, not FF.


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    #146
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Voting "Yes" to Lisbon has NOTHING to do with creating jobs.


    The Lisbon treaty is about streamlining how the EU makes decisions.

    And what decisions do they make?

    Oh right, where and how to invest!


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    #147
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    free-man wrote: »
    When you lose your job, have to research social welfare and return from collecting your first dole, your partner leaves you and you feel like you've no-one to turn to I'll be sure to remind you of this beautiful image.
    blenihan_20sept09_600.jpg]

    P.s. None of the above has happened to me before you say it.


    You must lend me this magical time machine you have.


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    #148
    shapez
    Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭shapez


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    No Shapez, running a Referendum is what a democracy would do, a dictatorship would just implement it...
    Is this really what people believe?

    Do we need to keep running referendums, costing the tax payer serious money to get the "right" answer the government desires?? The people of the republic ALREADY voted, voted NO to the Nice treaty, voted NO to the Lisbon treaty.

    But, this wasn't what FF wanted. Oh no, we need to run this referendum again and promote, using the tax payers money again on the "Yes" vote. And, hey presto, you get it passed the second time round.

    Shambles. I mean are there that many people in the country easily lead on?


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    #149
    odoylerulez
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭odoylerulez


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    The Lisbon treaty is about streamlining how the EU makes decisions.

    And what decisions do they make?

    Oh right, where and how to invest!

    Exactly where and how to invest. Where and how they please they want to invest. So still no gaurentees for ireland. But then gaurentees from politicans that aren't worth the paper they are written on. (Usually toilet paper)


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    #150
    Fuhrer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,661 ✭✭✭Fuhrer


    shapez wrote: »
    Do we need to keep running referendums, costing the tax payer serious money to get the "right" answer the government desires?? The people of the republic ALREADY voted, voted NO to the Nice treaty, voted NO to the Lisbon treaty.

    But, this wasn't what FF wanted. Oh no, we need to run this referendum again and promote, using the tax payers money again on the "Yes" vote. And, hey presto, you get it passed the second time round.

    Shambles.


    What do you think of the divorce referendum?


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    #151
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Fuhrer wrote: »
    The Lisbon treaty is about streamlining how the EU makes decisions.

    And what decisions do they make?

    Oh right, where and how to invest!

    There won't be a single job created in Ireland because of a "Yes" result on Lisbon.


This discussion has been closed.
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