Should we be ashamed for ignoring the irish who died in WWI?

bunny shooter

drumaneen wrote: »

Just think we need to remind ourselves as to the title of this thread Should we be ashamed for ignoring the irish who died in WWI?.

Too right ! Don't bull****e a bull****ter

And to answer the OP....................... NO we/I haven't ignored them

drumaneen wrote: »

Posters seem to be straying quite a bit.

Yes you WERE

bunny shooter

Happy Monday wrote: »

The first Dail as agreed met on 21 Jan 1919.
Read further down the page.
Once elected - 14 Dec 1918 - they resolved to create the Dail.

I'm sure the British were very worried about a crowd of Irishmen and one Irishwoman resolving to declare independence two years after they murdered the leaders of the 1916 Rising

partyatmygaff

We should not exclusively mourn any one race of soldiers. Young men some only 14 lost their lives fighting a war without meaning. A british man/child's life is not worth more than an Irishman. Both fought for different personal reasons be it money or dissimiliar, the fact is both the allies and the axis forces ordinary soldiers fought a war of politics without purpose. These young men had entire lives ahead of them, they never experienced all what life had to offer and they never shall again. They all lost their lives without reason so we cannot dare value one race above another.
It is a great source of shame for us to ignore not only the millions who dead but our OWN race of people.

bunny shooter

Happy Monday wrote: »

Wrong - the dail first met on the 21/1/1919 but was put in place in 1918.
The General Election was held across all of the UK including of all Ireland.
The SF MPs didn't take their seats at Westminster - they ignored their mandate at that level rather than it being ignored across the water.
Plus at Soloheadbeg two Irish policemen with families - Patrick MacDonnell and James O’Connell - both unarmed - were shot dead by Dan Breen and his colleagues. Hardly an assault on the Curragh now was it?

RIC constables were always armed :rolleyes:

Agreed they were shot.

None of the incidents can be looked at on their own you have to look at it in context of everything that was happening.

When you know more about it we will continue this discussion

drumaneen

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It is a great source of shame for us to ignore not only the millions who dead but our OWN race of people.

I agree .... what will you do differently to change that?

bunny shooter

Looks like ignore you for a start

drumaneen

bunny shooter wrote: »

Looks like ignore you for a start

Well Bunny, the question is deceptively difficult - thats my excuse :rolleyes:

bunny shooter

drumaneen wrote: »

Well Bunny, the question is deceptively difficult - thats my excuse :rolleyes:

That's the most sense you've made on this thread so far

siltirocker

Had no opinion on this, until i told my father about this thread, he then told me my great-Grandfather served in WWI and was killed by a 'Tan two years later (whom he probably served with prior to).

Manic Moran

It may be instructive to note that the concept of fighting for the British Army in order to further the goals of home rule was not unique to just Ireland. Indeed, it was the policy of Ghandi to actively recruit Indians to fight in the British Forces in WWI, preferably with their standing up Indian regiments for just that declared goal.

NTM

Manic Moran

By the way, putting the moderator hat on for a second, a couple of posts have been reported for being divisive/sectarian/etc. As the reporters may have figured out, I'm not planning on doing anything about them: By the very nature of this topic, pointing out divisions and differences of opinion between protestants/catholics/unionists/nationalists/dogs/cats etc are going to be inherent in the conversation and are unavoidable.

Do not interpret this as a license to go all-out in accusations, or to take false umbrage at a perceived swipe at 'your' side. Rules of civility will still apply, and ultimately I (and presumably my fellow mods) will make decisions on an arbitrary, case by case basis depending on how I feel and how much coffee I've had this morning.

NTM

Fuinseog

we should honour our gallant countrymen (no not the 7 Irish army UN soldiers) fighting for queen and country in afghanistan. if it wasn't for them we would not be able to enjoy the freedom we have now.

Fuinseog

drumaneen wrote: »

The IRA could do that much damage with just 1 bomb - get real

sorry, on what day do we commemerate the heroic deed of the PIRA? do tell and i'll mark it in my calender

Fuinseog

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where was that then?

imperial war museum

Fuinseog

drumaneen wrote: »

If I was Protestant and I read the Irish Times would I have anything to worry about in Fuinseog's Ireland??

'if i were protestant' surely.
I read the IT myself, but would not necessarily agree with all the sentiments expressed therein

Fuinseog

McArmalite wrote: »

It could also be argued that british imperialism was little different from fascism.

.

they would lynch you on the mainland for saving that. Old adolf was quite an admirer of the Empire, just like some people here. a lot of the racist notions the nazis held were based on what the Brits were doing, especially in India, where there were masters and slaves.

only recently did the gurkhas get recognition from the country for which they shed blood.

getz

Fuinseog wrote: »

they would lynch you on the mainland for saving that. Old adolf was quite an admirer of the Empire, just like some people here. a lot of the racist notions the nazis held were based on what the Brits were doing, especially in India, where there were masters and slaves.

only recently did the gurkhas get recognition from the country for which they shed blood.

most indians believe it was the british who united the country,under one kingdom,from the muslim rule,and dutch/french/russian,rule.as for the gurkhas,their only ever export has been soldiers,they have fought for many countries,and still do,but but for some reason that i dont fully understand,its the british uniform that is their first wish,and i am glad that they have the same rights as the citizens of the republic of ireland to settle with their families in the UK,

Fratton Fred

Fuinseog wrote: »

we should honour our gallant countrymen (no not the 7 Irish army UN soldiers) fighting for queen and country in afghanistan. if it wasn't for them we would not be able to enjoy the freedom we have now.

all the soldiers in Afghanistan are UN soldiers. There is nothing special about the Irish ones.

The IED experts there from the PDF are operating under the same UN resolution (Which the Irish government voted in favour of) as the British, American, German, Australian, French, Danish, Polish, Spanish etc etc troops.

Fratton Fred

Fuinseog wrote: »

imperial war museum

Just one? you said Museums.

would you be able to point to the bit about Irish people being considered Sub Human, or the bit where it says British troops returned fire? If it does say that, it is vastly out of synch with what the people of Britain think happened.

You have been to the Imperial War museum haven't you?

drumaneen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

all the soldiers in Afghanistan are UN soldiers. There is nothing special about the Irish ones.

....except they haven't got a decent helicopter to their name. We really ought to serve these guys better and stop scrounging

drumaneen

siltirocker wrote: »

Had no opinion on this, until i told my father about this thread, he then told me my great-Grandfather served in WWI and was killed by a 'Tan two years later (whom he probably served with prior to).

... want to share your opinion?

FiSe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

all the soldiers in Afghanistan are UN soldiers. There is nothing special about the Irish ones.

The IED experts there from the PDF are operating under the same UN resolution (Which the Irish government voted in favour of) as the British, American, German, Australian, French, Danish, Polish, Spanish etc etc troops.

Yes, but Americans are leading the fight over there, as were during Korea war, which was UN mandated mission as well, and so we have every right to hate every nation and every soldier involved in there equally

drumaneen

God Bless Them ALL

siltirocker

drumaneen wrote: »

... want to share your opinion?

I think that sectarian reasons and republician issues along with the timing of WWI in relation to our independence, hindered any chance of rememberance intially in Ireland.
So to all of a sudden now celebrate these men, who in the 40s, 50s & 60's were comemerated, after the propaganda raised about them in the 70's, i find it hard for us to just flick on a switch.
But my Grandmother who lives in Drumcondra (where i will be visiting this weekend for the soccer and rugby), will most certainly be wearing a wild poppy in honour of her father, a proud Irishman.
And i wish i could do the same with out being called a 'hun' down the local (thank you IRA).:(

drumaneen

Extract from longer article http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/thesomme/p7top.htm

"The Volunteers and other Irishmen who had fought at the Somme and the other battles of the first World War returned to a changed Ireland. Some of them, such as Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton, joined the IRA and took part in the War of Independence. However, many were victimised.

Some estimates suggest that the IRA murdered around 200 ex-servicemen between 1919 and 1922. Changing political circumstances also served over time to obliterate the memory of those who died in the first World War. Initially, though, the dead were widely remembered. In the early 1920s, thousands of people would gather at various centres around the country on Remembrance Day, such as College Green in Dublin, where the Ginchy Cross was temporarily erected each year as an Irish cenotaph.

In 1923, 150,000 poppies were sold within a few days in the Irish Free State. In November, 1925, The Irish Times reported that 120,000 people attended the College Green commemoration. However, a smoke bomb was let off in the crowd and there was violence following a Sinn Féin protest. The escalating violence accompanying Sinn Féin protests led to the relocation of the commemorations. Subsequently the Dublin event was held in the Phoenix Park but crowds of up to 30,000 continued to attend during the 1920s.

...After the victory of Fianna Fáil in 1932, Remembrance Day commemorations were scaled back as the political climate grew increasingly hostile. Wearing the poppy was regarded as a provocative political symbol.


....In the 1980s there was also controversy about the formal representation at the annual Remembrance Day service in St Patrick's Cathedral. The president, Dr Patrick Hillery, was invited to attend by the British Legion, and was willing to go, but then taoiseach Charles Haughey refused to allow it ."


Good old Fianna Fail ...


...as to Shame ...... If the cap fits .. you should wear it!

In December 1916, Willie Redmond wrote to his friend, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: “There are a great many Irishmen today who feel that out of this war we should try to build up a new Ireland. The trouble is, men are so timid about meeting each other half way. It would be a fine memorial to the men who have died so splendidly, if we could, over their graves build a bridge between north and south.”

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:FUGDarYmJzUJ:www.greatwar.ie/ire-war-down/4eremdw.rtf+1923+college+green+remembrance&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-a

therewillbe

Heres my penneys worth. No to remembering them ,Why? In my view They joined at the time an occupying forces army (ww1) and they freely enlisted in ww2 for a foreign goverment.Yes some died but NOT in my name.This country was not involved so they went and got themselves killed/injured for money.You want to remember the dead ,get over to the uk and celebrate with them.Thats my view.

therewillbe

Heres my penneys worth. No to remembering them ,Why? In my view They joined at the time an occupying forces army (ww1) and they freely enlisted in ww2 for a foreign goverment.Yes some died but NOT in my name.This country was not involved so they went and got themselves killed/injured for money.You want to remember the dead ,get over to the uk and celebrate with them.So to answer your question, NO! When it comes to celebrating OUR lads involved in peacekeeping etc well then yes.

johnjohn3423

Read what happened in the link
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/claremuseum/acquisitions/patrick_harry_loughnane_mem_card.htm

I can’t understand how anybody who calls themselves Irish would join the British army after this happened.

Fuinseog

why does nobody mention a national day of commemeration for all the Irish who fell while serving France, whether it be the Wild Geese or The Foreign legion? perhaps because France is a foreign country to most Irish people and Britain is.....well, we are unable to decide on that on.

Fuinseog

johnjohn3423 wrote: »

Read what happened in the link
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/claremuseum/acquisitions/patrick_harry_loughnane_mem_card.htm

I can’t understand how anybody who calls themselves Irish would join the British army after this happened.

those vile Irish rebels.

Irish people served in Northern Ireland during the troubles, but most keep stumm. i wonder why?

Fuinseog

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Just one? you said Museums.

would you be able to point to the bit about Irish people being considered Sub Human, or the bit where it says British troops returned fire? If it does say that, it is vastly out of synch with what the people of Britain think happened.

You have been to the Imperial War museum haven't you?

indeed I did, The Army Museum, The Guards Museum.

what the people of Britain think and what the british military think are very different.
Go to Hereford and with a paddy accent and see how they receive you.
we are constantly been told we should forget the past, yet our colonial masters still live in the past. WW2 it seems only happened yesterday.

i am interested in militaria but the obsession with which the english glorify war is sickening.

WW1 probably made more sense that the current war in Afghanistan.

LordSutch

Fuinseog wrote: »

WW1 probably made more sense that the current war in Afghanistan.

Indeed it did, which takes us full circle to ask again "Should we ne ashamed for ignoring the Irish who died in WWI" and my answer is YES, or at least the State & (the leaders) of the RC Church in Ireland should be very very ashamed for their ambivalence towards the memory of those 'tens of thousands' who served & in the Great War & WWII.

Fuinseog

Camelot wrote: »

Indeed it did, which takes us full circle to ask again "Should we ne ashamed for ignoring the Irish who died in WWI" and my answer is YES, or at least the State & (the leaders) of the RC Church in Ireland should be very very ashamed for their ambivalence towards the memory of those 'tens of thousands' who served & in the Great War & WWII.

i am not ashamed of them. i do not think we need to commemerate a graoup of people who fought for a foreign power. what exactly did they die for?

France was part of the Third Reich for five years. they tend to tend to remember the murdering terrorists more than those who took arms with the whermacht to fight the evil that was communsim.

people like cathal shannon fought to maintain the britisch empire in asia. he served an empire that treated its subjects as slaves. the british was an evil and racist empire. those who fought who defend its glory need to consider this.

johnny_doyle

Fuinseog wrote: »

indeed I did, The Army Museum, The Guards Museum.

what the people of Britain think and what the british military think are very different.
Go to Hereford and with a paddy accent and see how they receive you.
we are constantly been told we should forget the past, yet our colonial masters still live in the past. WW2 it seems only happened yesterday.

i am interested in militaria but the obsession with which the english glorify war is sickening.

WW1 probably made more sense that the current war in Afghanistan.

there are absolutely no problems going to Hereford with an Irish accent. Where on earth do you get the idea that there's a problem? Utter nonsense.

drumaneen

Fuinseog wrote: »

i am not ashamed of them. i do not think we need to commemerate a graoup of people who fought for a foreign power.

Jaysus Fuinseog the question in this thread is not whether we should be ashamed of them what served and died but whether WE (Irish U and ME) should be ashamed for having ignored their contribution and sacrifice.
Do pay attention ... I know you've been away and had your dinner but no need to be post-prandial.

drumaneen

Fuinseog wrote: »

indeed I am interested in militaria but the obsession with which the english glorify war is sickening.

I too am interested in militaria as are many here but
your obsession with gorifying the English war is just as sickenening

McArmalite

Happy Monday wrote: »

British law - if Collins and Dev were willing to accept British law on all of this why then rebel in the first place. The same people who would have condemned Redmond for his Home Rule bill accepted self rule over a smaller part of the Ireland.

The UVF was formed because of fears of a lack of political influence for Unionists in an all Ireland parliament even if it was within the UK. The Rising ended any realistic hope of accommodating Unionists. A mistake Redmond made - IMO the key political error in Ireland in the 20th century - is that in 1912 he didn't agree a Home Rule Bill with Unionists which would have guaranteed their rights. Then there could have been a joint Home Rule Bill on an agreed basis within the UK at that time - decades before the GFA.

The only Home Rule bill for Ireland you unionists would ever accept is no Home Rule bill for Ireland. As a journalist from the New York Times once said, no seems to the only word in the dictionary unionists ever understood. No to the the Civil Rights movement in 1969, no to Sunningdale Agreement 1973, no to the Anglo Irish Agreement in 1985, no to the GFA*, no to street signs in Irish in nationalist districts, no to the changing of the RUC cap badge no, no, no, no, :rolleyes:

*( they only accepted the GFA when Blair told them he was going to implement it anyway with officals from the Irish govt so it didn't matter what they had to say and therefore were compelled to join it )

Happy Monday

therewillbe wrote: »

Heres my penneys worth. No to remembering them ,Why? In my view They joined at the time an occupying forces army (ww1) and they freely enlisted in ww2 for a foreign goverment.Yes some died but NOT in my name.This country was not involved so they went and got themselves killed/injured for money.You want to remember the dead ,get over to the uk and celebrate with them.So to answer your question, NO! When it comes to celebrating OUR lads involved in peacekeeping etc well then yes.

At the time they joined in WW1 there were many Irish regiments in the British Army. They joined to ensure that the Home Rule Bill of 1912 was enacted in Ireland. THEY SERVED IRELAND BY SERVING IN THE BRITISH ARMY.

In WW2 they served in the British Army to defeat fascism.
The very fact that you can openly express your opinion on these forums is because powerful people in Nazi uniforms who would have taken that right away were narrowly defeated and fellow Irishmen of ours helped in that cause.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

There are still Irish regiments in the British Army. Irishmen have served with the British Army since the year dot, be it through conscription or working towards Home Rule, against facism, against terrorism, whatever.

The long and the short of it is that these men were our Irish brethren fighting for many causes which, judging by some of the posts i've read, have been lost on many people. They did it not as an act of abohorration towards their own country, but for causes that they saw fit to fight for. They left these shores knowing that they might pay the ultimate sacrifice and never return, and for that I think that they deserve our respect and admiration as a nation of people, even if it was under the British flag.

McArmalite

deccurley wrote: »

There are still Irish regiments in the British Army. Irishmen have served with the British Army since the year dot, be it through conscription or working towards Home Rule, against facism, against terrorism, whatever.

Yes, and pedophiles have been around too since the year dot, that doesn't make them legitimate either.

The long and the short of it is that these men were our Irish brethren fighting for many causes which, judging by some of the posts i've read, have been lost on many people. They did it not as an act of abohorration towards their own country, but for causes that they saw fit to fight for. They left these shores knowing that they might pay the ultimate sacrifice and never return, and for that I think that they deserve our respect and admiration as a nation of people, even if it was under the British flag.

That's some logic and morality. According to the above, it's ok to go off to some unfortunate country and to carry out what the british had been doing to us and we should view those from Ireland who carried out these atrocities as " think that they deserve our respect and admiration as a nation of people " Words defy me :rolleyes:

Happy Monday

McArmalite wrote: »

what the british had been doing to us

BTW did you know that big Jim Larkin whom you quote below was in fact an Englishman. :rolleyes:

Fuinseog

drumaneen wrote: »

Jaysus Fuinseog the question in this thread is not whether we should be ashamed of them what served and died but whether WE (Irish U and ME) should be ashamed for having ignored their contribution and sacrifice.
.

NO we should not be ashamed. I find it amusing that whenever an Irishman criticises the English they are labelled childish or immature.

the Brits glorify their wars, some of which were less than honourable.
honouring dead RAF bomber pilots for example is akin to honouring the German guy who poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers.

Fuinseog

Happy Monday wrote: »

At the time they joined in WW1 there were many Irish regiments in the British Army. They joined to ensure that the Home Rule Bill of 1912 was enacted in Ireland. THEY SERVED IRELAND BY SERVING IN THE BRITISH ARMY.

In WW2 they served in the British Army to defeat fascism.
The very fact that you can openly express your opinion on these forums is because powerful people in Nazi uniforms who would have taken that right away were narrowly defeated and fellow Irishmen of ours helped in that cause.

they fought for the freedom of small nations just like the brits invaded Iraq to destroy the weapons of mass destruction.

they fought in WW2 for the craic and because they wanted a bit of adventure. anything else is blarney.

Fuinseog

Happy Monday wrote: »

BTW did you know that big Jim Larkin whom you quote below was in fact an Englishman. :rolleyes:

criticise the British war machine and you are anti-british. the avergae brit is fine. those who glorify the 'heroic' deeds of the military establishment are another matter. i believe in Britain you more or less have to wear the poppy if you are on TV. aything less is not accepted.

partyatmygaff

Fuinseog wrote: »

they fought for the freedom of small nations just like the brits invaded Iraq to destroy the weapons of mass destruction.

they fought in WW2 for the craic and because they wanted a bit of adventure. anything else is blarney.

Only a madman goes into war for "The craic and a bit of adventure" either that or some seriously misguided fool.

Whats the "craic" in constant fear for your life, watching all your friends die painful and brutal deaths infront of your very eyes day in day out and suffer terrible conditions for 3 years? Only a fool(Or a politician/high ranking officer) would call war fun as they have never seen the horrors of war. No matter how tough you may be or may think yourself to be, constant views of death in the most brutal way imaginable would never be what I call fun.

MarchDub

Happy Monday wrote: »

BTW did you know that big Jim Larkin whom you quote below was in fact an Englishman. :rolleyes:

Born in Liverpool to two Irish parents - grew up in Ireland - doesn't make him an "Englishman' in any ethnic or cultural sense.

http://www.pgil-eirdata.org/html/pgil_datasets/authors/l/Larkin,J/life.htm

johnny_doyle

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes, and pedophiles have been around too since the year dot, that doesn't make them legitimate either.


That's some logic and morality. According to the above, it's ok to go off to some unfortunate country and to carry out what the british had been doing to us and we should view those from Ireland who carried out these atrocities as " think that they deserve our respect and admiration as a nation of people " Words defy me :rolleyes:

paedophile might be one of those words that defy you. Shame on you for attempting to bring the word into the thread. Disgusting and unnecessary.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

McArmalite wrote: »

That's some logic and morality. According to the above, it's ok to go off to some unfortunate country and to carry out what the british had been doing to us and we should view those from Ireland who carried out these atrocities as " think that they deserve our respect and admiration as a nation of people " Words defy me :rolleyes:

Yeah cos that's exactly what I said. Erm.... I don't think that the Irish who served with the Brit Army imposed penal laws such as banning germans from speaking their own language or going to school. You'll probably find that they weren't busy burning down german gouses or beating the fúck out of german civilians, because the Irish soldiers were knee deep in sh1te dug into trenches trying to avoid machine gun fire.

What the Irish did in service in those wars is completely incomparable to the hundreds of years of oppression that went on here. We both know that! Or are you just taking the píss :eek:

Tony EH

Happy Monday wrote: »

At the time they joined in WW1 there were many Irish regiments in the British Army. They joined to ensure that the Home Rule Bill of 1912 was enacted in Ireland. THEY SERVED IRELAND BY SERVING IN THE BRITISH ARMY.

Sorry, but this business of joining up for "home-rule" or "Catholic Belgium" is a load of old bollocks.

The vast majority of men who joined the BA in BOTH world wars do so for reasons of finance, not any glorified political notion. The British Army paid well and promised a decent pension too, after you were de-mobbed.

...and I say this as the son of a man who served in the Royal Engineers in WWII and as a grandson of a man who was in the Dardenelles (his brothers died in France too) in WWI.

Many of the young men going to war in 1914, believed that they were getting involved in something that was going to be over by Christmas. Something, almost trivial.

Happy Monday wrote: »

In WW2 they served in the British Army to defeat fascism.
The very fact that you can openly express your opinion on these forums is because powerful people in Nazi uniforms who would have taken that right away were narrowly defeated and fellow Irishmen of ours helped in that cause.

This...is just unbelievably so far from any truth or reality that exists.

Tony EH

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Only a madman goes into war for "The craic and a bit of adventure" either that or some seriously misguided fool.

Whats the "craic" in constant fear for your life, watching all your friends die painful and brutal deaths infront of your very eyes day in day out and suffer terrible conditions for 3 years? Only a fool(Or a politician/high ranking officer) would call war fun as they have never seen the horrors of war. No matter how tough you may be or may think yourself to be, constant views of death in the most brutal way imaginable would never be what I call fun.

You're speaking from the comfort of almost a Century after the events.

The reality is that, yes indeed, many young men joined up (expecially in WWI) simply because their mates were doing so and their was a war on. There were regiments in WWI that brothers from an entire family in them. Many men from the same factory would join up to the same regiment, beliving that they'd all pop over to France and be back for Christmas...la di da.

There weren't too many people who had any notion whatsoever in 1914, who believed that the war was going to drag on til 1918 and people who joined up in later years probably believed that the were entering into the latter stages.

Nobody joining up had a single clue what they were letting themselves in for. They joined up because they believed that the Army would "make a man" of them, or that they would "see the world". This is how both world wars were sold to young men.