The Government Could Not Have Continued In Office If There Had Been A "No" Vote

PaulieD · 04-10-2009 12:56am

namloc1980 wrote: »

I must have missed the part where this was a referendum on the Governemnt....silly me :rolleyes:

Read me earlier posts in this thread. Cowen could not have suffered another electoral defeat, he was a dead man walking, Lisbon 1, local elections, european elections and Lisbon 2. He would have been pushed. After that Fianna Fail would have had to call a general election. Not now, he will claim he has the backing of the people to make the "tough decisions" and will stay in power until the summer of 2012 at the earliest.

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 12:57am

jank wrote: »

Oh yes it was. Ask or listen to any politcol commentator from any newspaper and they would have said the same. In fact I have heard 3 different commentators say this. Cowen would have resigned and an election would follow suit.

Damn straight.

K-9 · 04-10-2009 12:59am

So a FF Insider means it must be true.

No, at worst Cowen would be gone with probably Martin taking over.

This shower will stay in power for as long as possible. Why wouldn't they?

CCCP^ · 04-10-2009 1:00am

K-9 wrote: »

So a FF Insider means it must be true.

No, at worst Cowen would be gone with probably Martin taking over.

This shower will stay in power for as long as possible. Why wouldn't they?

The only thing Fianna Fail have ever been able to do in this country is survive politically, hanging on by whatever means.

prinz · 04-10-2009 1:01am

jank wrote: »

Oh yes it was. Ask or listen to any politcol commentator from any newspaper and they would have said the same. In fact I have heard 3 different commentators say this. Cowen would have resigned and an election would follow suit.

No. It really wasn't a general election. Could you identify these commentators?

CCCP^ wrote: »

No you clown. I am calling on people to fight this tooth and nail. Lisbon is over, drop your rhetorical posturing now, from this point on there is no Yes and No sides, just an economically devastated country on the brink.

We need to work together, make the sacrifices etc and get Ireland moving again.... but you just said you wouldn't suffer that and would leave

K-9 wrote: »

This shower will stay in power for as long as possible. Why wouldn't they?

Exactly, they have nothing to lose. If they hadn't done it already they wouldn't do it now.

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 1:03am

prinz wrote: »

No. It really wasn't a general election. Could you identify these commentators?

Well I can identify my source but nobody has asked me to.

PaulieD · 04-10-2009 1:07am

Mario007 wrote: »

as much as i love seeing willi o'dea debate i missed him today so i won't argue with you on that point.
still would you rather hold the whole of europe in ransom just to change our government, when the EU can actually help us and monitor that our politicians wouldn't do anything too stupid...

The EU will not interfere with our politicians running(ruining) the country, they have their Yes vote.

The simple fact is this, an awful lot of Irish people have serious concerns about the EU. Otherwise, they would not have rejected Nice 1 and Lisbon 1. Remember 33% of the population voted against Lisbon despite all the major parties, unions, and major businesses calling for a Yes vote. That in itself, is staggering.

We had a chance to vote No to Lisbon, force Fianna Fail out, elect a government with a clear mandate from the people. Then, the new government could have approached Brussels, after discussing the issues with the No voters, and explained the Irish peoples concerns. I do not believe that 33% of the Irish electorate are eurosceptics, but they do have major concerns about the EU. For the EU to really benefit Ireland we need everyone on board.

Now, the country is split. The chips are down, united we stand, divided we fall. Now, the country is most definitely divided.

CCCP^ · 04-10-2009 1:09am

prinz wrote: »

We need to work together, make the sacrifices etc and get Ireland moving again.... but you just said you wouldn't suffer that and would leave

Leaving this country for me might as well be jumping into the sea. I have lived abroad before, it was a great experience, but this is home, always will be, and despite all the problems and things wrong with Ireland, I firmly believe its the best country in the world because of the people in it. Maybe earlier I put the post across wrong - sorry and excuse me, but I am not prepared to leave Ireland. I agree 100% we need to work together now. Hundreds of thousands of people suspended their anger with the government during this referendum for the better of the country and Europe, but now Lisbon is over - and now....its payback time *sound of shotgun being cocked*

prinz · 04-10-2009 1:10am

dresden8 wrote: »

Well I can identify my source but nobody has asked me to.

I was presuming you wouldn't say

So go on, tell us..

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:12am

PaulieD wrote: »

The EU will not interfere with our politicians running(ruining) the country, they have their Yes vote.

The simple fact is this, an awful lot of Irish people have serious concerns about the EU. Otherwise, they would not have rejected Nice 1 and Lisbon 1. Remember 33% of the population voted against Lisbon despite all the major parties, unions, and major businesses calling for a Yes vote. That in itself, is staggering.

We had a chance to vote No to Lisbon, force Fianna Fail out, elect a government with a clear mandate from the people. Then, the new government could have approached Brussels, after discussing the issues with the No voters, and explained the Irish peoples concerns. I do not believe that 33% of the Irish electorate are eurosceptics, but they do have major concerns about the EU. For the EU to really benefit Ireland we need everyone on board.

Now, the country is split. The chips are down, united we stand, divided we fall. Now, the country is most definitely divided.

You will never ever have "everyone" on board, to suggest that you will is plain foolish.
The country has always been "split" whether it be on national politics or european politics. The country has been divied on EU politics since we joined the EU.
Thems the joys of democracy. I dont always agree with the outcomes of democracy but I prefer it to the other options available. Most of the time.

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 1:12am

Why the bold Conor Lenihan. Coming from a party of corrupt lying scumbags Conor can be refreshingly honest at times. Must have inherited it from Mammy O'Rourke, not the da.

http://www.tv3.ie/news.php?video=14481&locID=1.2.141

Thread title is Conor's words. OP is my opinion. All quotes are accurate.

Missed a chance boys, missed a chance.

p.s. you've got to start researching other stuff. Don't stay on boards all day. It's decidedly yes-ish around here.

prinz · 04-10-2009 1:13am

CCCP^ wrote: »

I agree 100% we need to work together now. Hundreds of thousands of people suspended their anger with the government during this referendum for the better of the country and Europe, but now Lisbon is over - and now....its payback time *sound of shotgun being cocked voting pencil being picked up*

FYP

and yeah absolutely, can't wait. It's going to be one satisfying election.

PaulieD · 04-10-2009 1:17am

kippy wrote: »

You will never ever have "everyone" on board, to suggest that you will is plain foolish.
The country has always been "split" whether it be on national politics or european politics. The country has been divied on EU politics since we joined the EU.
Thems the joys of democracy. I dont always agree with the outcomes of democracy but I prefer it to the other options available. Most of the time.

You know quite well what I meant. The government should take the concerns of the 33% who voted No, in spite of all the major parties, unions, Catholic Church, and big businesses calling for a Yes vote, and address them.

The Irish people have serious concerns about the direction of the EU. When some Yes voters realise "Yes for Jobs" and "Yes for Recovery" was a spoof, they will not be happy. Is that the EU we want?

*apologies for any typos in my previous posts, smoothered with the flu and doped up on anti-biotics. I havent been able to sleep much over the past few days.

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:17am

dresden8 wrote: »

Why the bold Conor Lenihan. Coming from a party of corrupt lying scumbags Conor can be refreshingly honest at times. Must have inherited it from Mammy O'Rourke, not the da.

http://www.tv3.ie/news.php?video=14481&locID=1.2.141

Thread title is Conor's words. OP is my opinion. All quotes are accurate.

Missed a chance boys, missed a chance.

Wheres the rest of the interview.
ALL major political parties were advocating a yes vote, not just those in government.
To suggest that a No vote would mean and end to the government would be like suggesting, Coir, SF and Libertas amoung others, were the chosen parties.....

Again, none of this was an issue last time we voted no, I dont get what changed.....

Mario007 · 04-10-2009 1:19am

PaulieD wrote: »

The EU will not interfere with our politicians running(ruining) the country, they have their Yes vote.

The simple fact is this, an awful lot of Irish people have serious concerns about the EU. Otherwise, they would not have rejected Nice 1 and Lisbon 1. Remember 33% of the population voted against Lisbon despite all the major parties, unions, and major businesses calling for a Yes vote. That in itself, is staggering.

We had a chance to vote No to Lisbon, force Fianna Fail out, elect a government with a clear mandate from the people. Then, the new government could have approached Brussels, after discussing the issues with the No voters, and explained the Irish peoples concerns. I do not believe that 33% of the Irish electorate are eurosceptics, but they do have major concerns about the EU. For the EU to really benefit Ireland we need everyone on board.

Now, the country is split. The chips are down, united we stand, divided we fall. Now, the country is most definitely divided.

EU will intervene with the economic policy if they decide to just keep borrowing more. which is great, because they might be tempted to just run us into a huge debt so they wont discredit themselves more.
the fact is the as much as we dont like this ff government it has a mandate from people. we can't be having an election everytime the economic situation changes(this can also be applied to the argument about having a referendum everytime the economic situation changes). basically we were dumb enough to trust them, now we must take the consequences since we enjoyed the bonuses for far too long.

there is about 25% of eurosceptics in most eu countries. i know its a really high figure. and they usually go to vote no everytime so in a turnout of 58% they might get the old 30%, leaving 3% of people that voted no to lisbon not to the eu.

the thing is the lies or 'concerns of the irish people' from lisbon 1 were addressed. anything else would require changing the treaty which would make lisbon dead.

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 1:20am

kippy wrote: »

Wheres the rest of the interview.
ALL major political parties were advocating a yes vote, not just those in government.
To suggest that a No vote would mean and end to the government would be like suggesting, Coir, SF and Libertas amoung others, were the chosen parties.....

Again, none of this was an issue last time we voted no, I dont get what changed.....

No seriously, it's there. The words were spoken, they are unambiguous.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

K-9 · 04-10-2009 1:21am

CCCP^ wrote: »

The only thing Fianna Fail have ever been able to do in this country is survive politically, hanging on by whatever means.

Exactly, this reminds me of Haugheys last years. Power for the sake of power. The Greens have no reason to go either.

PaulieD wrote: »

The EU will not interfere with our politicians running(ruining) the country, they have their Yes vote.

The simple fact is this, an awful lot of Irish people have serious concerns about the EU. Otherwise, they would not have rejected Nice 1 and Lisbon 1. Remember 33% of the population voted against Lisbon despite all the major parties, unions, and major businesses calling for a Yes vote. That in itself, is staggering.

We had a chance to vote No to Lisbon, force Fianna Fail out, elect a government with a clear mandate from the people. Then, the new government could have approached Brussels, after discussing the issues with the No voters, and explained the Irish peoples concerns. I do not believe that 33% of the Irish electorate are eurosceptics, but they do have major concerns about the EU. For the EU to really benefit Ireland we need everyone on board.

Now, the country is split. The chips are down, united we stand, divided we fall. Now, the country is most definitely divided.

No, as shown today, we have our hardcore Anti EU Vote, for various reasons. Twice, they have scaremongered people into voting No by lies, twisting and misrepresenting and of course, a protest vote.

CCCP^ wrote: »

Leaving this country for me might as well be jumping into the sea. I have lived abroad before, it was a great experience, but this is home, always will be, and despite all the problems and things wrong with Ireland, I firmly believe its the best country in the world because of the people in it. Maybe earlier I put the post across wrong - sorry and excuse me, but I am not prepared to leave Ireland. I agree 100% we need to work together now. Hundreds of thousands of people suspended their anger with the government during this referendum for the better of the country and Europe, but now Lisbon is over - and now....its payback time *sound of shotgun being cocked*

In a strange way, the longer they are in, the longer FF are finished as a big party in Ireland.

PaulieD · 04-10-2009 1:22am

CCCP^ wrote: »

Leaving this country for me might as well be jumping into the sea. I have lived abroad before, it was a great experience, but this is home, always will be, and despite all the problems and things wrong with Ireland, I firmly believe its the best country in the world because of the people in it. Maybe earlier I put the post across wrong - sorry and excuse me, but I am not prepared to leave Ireland. I agree 100% we need to work together now. Hundreds of thousands of people suspended their anger with the government during this referendum for the better of the country and Europe, but now Lisbon is over - and now....its payback time *sound of shotgun being cocked*

Good post and I can sense your passion. That is what we need to get us out of this mess. The potential in this small wee island is unreal. Unfortunately, the definition of an entrepreneur in Ireland, is somebody who buys a house, with others money, and rents it out to somebody who can barely afford it.

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:24am

dresden8 wrote: »

No seriously, it's there. The words were spoken, they are unambiguous.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

That was his opinion, not fact or anything backed up by any form of evidence.
Voting no did not bring down the government last time, what changed since to bring it down with a no vote this time?

K-9 · 04-10-2009 1:25am

dresden8 wrote: »

No seriously, it's there. The words were spoken, they are unambiguous.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Yes, but taking the word of a FF politician is bizarre. Who knows what would have happened? Just because he says it does not make it true. He's a die hard FF'er FFS!

K-9 · 04-10-2009 1:27am

PaulieD wrote: »

Good post and I can sense your passion. That is what we need to get us out of this mess. The potential in this small wee island is unreal. Unfortunately, the definition of an entrepreneur in Ireland, is somebody who buys a house, with others money, and rents it out to somebody who can barely afford it.

Them days are over, our property and land fixation is long gone.

free-man · 04-10-2009 1:29am

PaulieD wrote: »

The potential in this small wee island is unreal.

Tell that to the masses of young people who will emigrate next year.

You think there's potential with FF in power? What will change if FG get in?
Sweet f**k all.

In any event they'll be little more than an admin office for unelected decision makers in the EU so I guess it doesn't really matter.

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:30am

PaulieD wrote: »

You know quite well what I meant. The government should take the concerns of the 33% who voted No, in spite of all the major parties, unions, Catholic Church, and big businesses calling for a Yes vote, and address them.

The Irish people have serious concerns about the direction of the EU. When some Yes voters realise "Yes for Jobs" and "Yes for Recovery" was a spoof, they will not be happy. Is that the EU we want?

*apologies for any typos in my previous posts, smoothered with the flu and doped up on anti-biotics. I havent been able to sleep much over the past few days.

Sorry to hear about the flu, nasty dose goin round, and not the H1N1 either.....

They were able to take the concerns of them last time out, go to europe and try get some form of "Guarentees" to address them (whether or not these are/were binding or not though is a different matter.

The point is, there will always be a percentage who dont agree with something or vice versa.
The fact is we've never had more than a 60% turn out on an EU vote, theres a whole 40% of the population who dont seem to care either way, which is more worrying than those who chose to vote for or against an EU based vote.

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:32am

free-man wrote: »

Tell that to the masses of young people who will emigrate next year.

You think there's potential with FF in power? What will change if FG get in?
Sweet f**k all.

In any event they'll be little more than an admin office for unelected decision makers in the EU so I guess it doesn't really matter.

If thats what you believe we should disband the Dail, Seanad and all national politics as it appears irrelevent. After all, thats what all other countries that have ratified the treaty appear to be heading towards.......

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 1:34am

kippy wrote: »

That was his opinion, not fact or anything backed up by any form of evidence.
Voting no did not bring down the government last time, what changed since to bring it down with a no vote this time?

Fianna Fail Junior Minister says government could not have survived.

Nothing to see here, move along now.

kippy · 04-10-2009 1:36am

dresden8 wrote: »

Fianna Fail Junior Minister says government could not have survived.

Nothing to see here, move along now.

As mentioned above, you were quick enough not to believe him before he made that comment.
What changed?
Answer my question, what changed between the first no vote and this vote to potentially cause the government so much hassle?

jank · 04-10-2009 1:37am

kippy wrote: »

Good luck in N.Z, a country that has no problems what so ever.
You speak of people being meek and taking it up the ass, you do worse and feck off when the going gets slightly tough. Fair play to you, I wish you well, I hear the winter sports are good out there.

Yea a typical Irish response. "Go on, go sure because those other countries are just so perfect! We don't need your type here as we real Irish patriots are fighting it out."

Only a fool would think that any country has no problems but last time I checked unemployment in NZ wasn't at 14% (its about 7%), the IMF weren't talked about in entering the country to solve the 20 Billion euro black hole in the public finances. There isn't the layer of untouchables here as you have in Ireland. Public servants were sacked, yea thats right sacked this year to cut costs. Other departments went on a 4 day week. No strikes, they just got on with it.

See you don't know me. You don't know when or why I went away. I could be in NZ 5 minutes or 5 years. You don't know my personal situation so don't comment as if you do, its makes you look bitter.

If Ireland's future is supposed to be built on a future "smart" economy than I am exactly the type of person that should be encouraged to stay but comments like that above perfectly underlines the attitude of people and all the more makes me want to stay away.

johnnyskeleton · 04-10-2009 1:37am

PaulieD wrote: »

This is what will happen. Cowen and Co will claim the result of Lisbon gives him and his party a mandate "to implement the tough decisions."

-Nama will pass.

That's the real issue, and one we don't get to vote on. However, I see no reason to relent in putting pressure on the greens to go against it. If anything, people should redouble their efforts by saying "we said yes to lisbon but we say no to nama".

-Unemployment will reach 550,000 by mid spring.

If it will, it seems unavoidable no matter who is in power.

-Fianna Fail and the Greens will stay in power until the summer of 2012.

Maybe, maybe not. One theory runs that once nama is passed they will call an election, let FG/Lab clean up the mess, then in 5 years time ride back into power on the back of "sure don't ya remember the good times under bertie?"

-The budget will crucify the average worker, there will be devestating cuts across the board.

When you say cuts, I take it you mean PS pay cuts? I'm sorry, but the public sector are by no means the average worker. Necessary yes, overpaid arguably, but average no.

-Yes for recovery and all that malarkey will be conveniently forgotten about.

As will the €1.84 minimum wage, conscription etc.

-Multinationals will pull out and relocate to Eastern Europe and Asia.

Again unavoidable.

There has only been one winner in Ireland today, Fianna Fail. I hope Fine Gael and Labour enjoy their next three years in opposition.

I don't agree.

K-9 · 04-10-2009 1:38am

dresden8 wrote: »

Fianna Fail Junior Minister says government could not have survived.

Nothing to see here, move along now.

The point is, he wouldn't be saying that if it was a No.

This is grasping at straws now.

dresden8 · 04-10-2009 1:39am

kippy wrote: »

As mentioned above, you were quick enough not to believe him before he made that comment.
What changed?
Answer my question, what changed between the first no vote and this vote to potentially cause the government so much hassle?

Here's what you do, write to Conor and tell him how wrong he is.

The Government Could Not Have Continued In Office If There Had Been A "No" Vote

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