Anyone set up a DVB-S/S2 Tuner Card in their HTPC?

tech-e

Ok, i see what your saying.I'll have to have a rethink of how best to connect everything up.currently have all uk freesat channels thru decoder inc. five us ,fiver etc. via uk freesat card and don't want to loose them.
maybe a combination of seperate conection from tv card to dish and decoder connected to tv card also?
or is there a tv card that will accept the sky freesat card and still have the function of the HVR4000 ?
easy to make expensive mistakes with a htpc setup so trying to eliminate any chance .

plan is to loose none of the channels i already receive with the uk freesat card and be able to record any of these channels to the htpc.using the digibox for viewing and the htpc for recording and playback might be the way to go?
if i can't make the setup a doddle to use for the wife i'm wasting my time.

thanks again for the help and if you think of anything else no matter how obvious it might seem then fire away.

PyeContinental

tech-e wrote: »

.currently have all uk freesat channels thru decoder inc. five us ,fiver etc. via uk freesat card and don't want to loose them.

Ah, right - well what you have there isn't actually Freesat. That's Sky FreeToView, which is a little different. I know the brands are confusingly named.
[Edit - hey, just checked that again and Sky FreeToView is also called "Freesat from Sky", from http://www.freesatfromsky.co.uk/freesat.aspx

Freesat from Sky is an easy way of getting digital satellite television for a simple one-off payment of £146.81.

So it's certainly confusing. Not quite the same thing though as Freesat. Not bad value at all though if it includes installation of the dish and the sky box. Of course, the marketing angle is that they are happy to have the box in your house so that you can "easily ugrade to any Sky digital package once you have Freesat from Sky."

maybe a combination of seperate conection from tv card to dish and decoder connected to tv card also?

Yes that might work, but I haven't done it. I used to have a Hauppauge PVR150 which I used to connect a DTT box to via scart to the composite connectors on it in XP MCE.

or is there a tv card that will accept the sky freesat card and still have the function of the HVR4000 ?

In theory yes, but I've not done it so can't confirm if it's difficult to set up or maintain if the card is out of the sky box for any certain length of time (don't know if the sky freetoview card needs to see the digibox again or not once it's installed - can anyone confirm?).

Anyway, you would need a card like this FloppyDTV which accepts a CAM:
http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_4348.html
or externally, http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_4354.html

I haven't tried either, but I have bought other stuff from that website and can confirm that KustomPCs are a reputable site and have good customer service. They are happy to answer customer queries by email and phone.

easy to make expensive mistakes with a htpc setup so trying to eliminate any chance.

Yes, good to do a bit of research first alright. Tough to find out everything though. A lot of times, information isn't very clear.

plan is to loose none of the channels i already receive with the uk freesat card and be able to record any of these channels to the htpc.using the digibox for viewing and the htpc for recording and playback might be the way to go?
if i can't make the setup a doddle to use for the wife i'm wasting my time.

thanks again for the help and if you think of anything else no matter how obvious it might seem then fire away.

I can understand you not wanting to lose any existing channels or make the wife confused or irritated by the setup.

I can tell you though that it's all worth the effort when you've got it sorted out. Although it does have its flaws and minor bugs, Windows Media Center is the first Microsoft product I've been genuinely impressed with. My main TV has been a Media Center HTPC for several years now (XP MCE and then W7) and both versions have been very reliable and my girlfriend can use it just fine (Media Center Remote Control and USB receiver makes all the difference to usability, and it's a great remote too). We have the standard jokes that I pay the media center more attention, and of course it's true!

Now, I'm so used to it myself that if ever I'm watching someone else's telly without PVR, I'm always looking for the skip back button to rehear something I didn't catch properly, it's just instinctive at this stage. Hate having to watch a non time-shifting enabled telly now! :pac:

tech-e

i bought the freesat card a few years back before it was possible to tune in itv on an irish digibox so it owes me nothing , cost about £40 at the time .there not tied to a particular sky box so will work in any digibox.catch is you must have a uk address to get one - supposedly-
has served me well an i don't pay sky a cent for it.
once i can sort out a htpc to record these channels i'll be happy.
only pay 1 basic subscription for the std sky+ channels in ireland to get the irish stations.
have looked at putting up my own aerial and cancelling this subscription too but sky+ is handy.
might consider this again if i can get the htpc up and running and stable.
i'll keep browsing to see what else is available but you comments have been a good help.

PyeContinental

If I were you I'd be very tempted to try that card in one of those FloppyDTV cards.

Put up that aerial and get the Irish channels via DTT. Sure it's only an "engineering test" and sometimes one of the channels seems to be taken off air for a few days occasionally, but I can live with that.

The amount of money you'd save on your sky plus subscription over a year would pay for your HTPC and aerial I'd say. Anyway, Media Center can do everything Sky+ can do and more. Also, you can order your EPG in any way you want that suits you (see attached pic). Great satisfaction to have one less bill to worry about too.

Apogee

This might be of interest to some here. Rather than using a dreambox to read the cards, use a Linux PC and a USB card reader - for personal use only of course!
http://www.satellites.co.uk/satellite/dreambox-general/155494-how-setup-linux-pc-card-server.html

From what I've read on other forums, the Phoenix Smartmouse reader/NDSCam I linked to in #61 will only work with non-premium channels on the white cards. Similarly, the only hardware based CI module working with the new white cards is the Diablo cam and again, it'll only work for the non-premium channels.

The Ritz

Mod Comment:

Discussion of card-sharing or using any means to obtain subscription tv services without paying for them is not welcome here.



Ritz.

Nelbert

The Ritz wrote: »

Mod Comment:

Discussion of card-sharing or using any means to obtain subscription tv services without paying for them is not welcome here.



Ritz.

Bit much considering he mentions using a white sky card and that it is for non-premium channels in the post. And if you follow the link it's about obtaining the channels you subscribe to through Media Center not for viewing without paying.

The Ritz

@Nelbert,

My Mod comment was a general warning, (not directed at the previous post by Apogee) and is also reflected in a Stickey on top of the forum. The warning was necessitated by earlier posts which I've snipped and the poster in question has been in touch by PM.

Questionning Mod decisions on-thread is not welcome. If you have some comment to make about the running of this or any other forum, feel free to PM the Mods on the forum (me in this case) or take it to the Feedback forum.

Ritz.

Nelbert

Sorry I started the thread and did not mean it to go down a potentially illegal topic of discussion, which for the most part I think it has avoided. I think it was a fair assumption that it was directed at that individual post given the fact that it was directly after it and made no mention of it being in reference to multiple posts.
I also think your response to me was excessive in the extreme when all I tried to do was clarify where I felt a fellow poster was coming from, which may not have been evident. As far as I could understand it he was pointing to a site which guides you on how to access the channels you pay for through Media Center. Your a Mod here, on the Internet, is there any real need for the what come's across as a be all and end all attitude i.e.

Questionning Mod decisions is a good way to earn yourself a ban, I'll let it slide this time, but don't post on this thread again

. I mean I thought the whole thread was fairly well behaved and has some quite useful information in it for any readers.

The Ritz

Nelbert,

There seems to be a fairly major misunderstanding here, I was not commenting on your starting the thread, just on the fact that you chose to comment on my intervention as a Mod. Just for future reference, if I direct a Mod coment at someone in particular, I usually start with @PosterName - general comments intended for everyone are headed "Mod Comment". The need for the intervention was necessitated by a poster earlier opening a discussion of card-sharing.

As for the "be-all and end-all" attitude, that wasn't my intention - on reflection, I recognise that my post was a bit heavy-handed and I've edited my response to you to reflect that.

I'm sending you a PM and request again that you keep discussion of Mod decisions or the running of the forums off this thread.



Ritz.

FrankGrimes

Very interesting thread, great read for a novice on satellite in MCE.

Does seem like adding Sky into the equation really complicates things though, would be great to have a clear view of what is needed to setup freesat without any requirement for Sky.

What's the difference between Freesat and Free To Air - is the difference in the set-top box and if using a DVB-S card in a HTPC with direct feed from LNB and accessing TV through Media Center in Windows 7, is the difference largely irrelevant?

Is there any definitive list of the channels available in each of the configurations in Ireland - i.e. 'with a combo DVB-S and DVB-T tuner you can get channels A, B, C etc. via Freesat/Freeview/Free To Air and then you can get RTE etc. via DTT'?

I'm currently using a stone-age PVR 500 MCE setup with 2 NTL set-top boxes and IR blaster and it's a bit clunky so I'm considering installing a satellite dish (saw PyeContinentals great DIY install guide) and upgrading the tuner card in my HTPC accordingly but knowing what channels I will and won't have will be necessary to convince herself!

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Very interesting thread, great read for a novice on satellite in MCE.

Does seem like adding Sky into the equation really complicates things though, would be great to have a clear view of what is needed to setup freesat without any requirement for Sky.

What's the difference between Freesat and Free To Air - is the difference in the set-top box and if using a DVB-S card in a HTPC with direct feed from LNB and accessing TV through Media Center in Windows 7, is the difference largely irrelevant?

Is there any definitive list of the channels available in each of the configurations in Ireland - i.e. 'with a combo DVB-S and DVB-T tuner you can get channels A, B, C etc. via Freesat/Freeview/Free To Air and then you can get RTE etc. via DTT'?

I'm currently using a stone-age PVR 500 MCE setup with 2 NTL set-top boxes and IR blaster and it's a bit clunky so I'm considering installing a satellite dish (saw PyeContinentals great DIY install guide) and upgrading the tuner card in my HTPC accordingly but knowing what channels I will and won't have will be necessary to convince herself!

As I understand it:

DVB-T will get you Irish DTT (RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4) - Aerial Needed
DVB-S will get you freesat (http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=whatson.Main) - Satellite dish needed

Dual cards would be required to give Sky+ functionality i.e. record one program, watch one, record 2, watch something recorded, etc.

Tea 1000

Anyone got any info on the BGT3595? Is it available to buy yet? Seems to be the real sucessor to the Pinnacle 7010i (which is excellent!).

FrankGrimes

eddiem74 wrote: »

As I understand it:

DVB-T will get you Irish DTT (RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4) - Aerial Needed
DVB-S will get you freesat (http://www.freesat.co.uk/index.php?page=whatson.Main) - Satellite dish needed

Dual cards would be required to give Sky+ functionality i.e. record one program, watch one, record 2, watch something recorded, etc.

Great stuff, thanks for that eddiem74. I'll definitely need to be able to watch/record at least 2 channels simulataneously. I've got an m-Atx motherboard so don't have space for two full size tuner cards - are there any that allow this functionality (e.g. does the Pinnacel 7010)?

Tea_1000 - seems from their website that the BGT3595 will be release to OEMs in January with Retail release likely to be in February. I could hang on until then if necessary.

eddiem74

FrankGrimes wrote: »

Great stuff, thanks for that eddiem74. I'll definitely need to be able to watch/record at least 2 channels simulataneously. I've got an m-Atx motherboard so don't have space for two full size tuner cards - are there any that allow this functionality (e.g. does the Pinnacel 7010)?

Tea_1000 - seems from their website that the BGT3595 will be release to OEMs in January with Retail release likely to be in February. I could hang on until then if necessary.

Yes, the 7010 and the new BG that I am aware of. Could be others?

I've explored TV a little but never set it up totally even though I have a 7010 installed.

TskTsk

If anyone has the time and patience, I'd appreciate a few pointers regarding my setup. I have the following:

- Windows 7
- For DVB-S2: Terratec Cinergy S2 PCI HD
- For DVB-T: Hauppauge HVR-1700

I don't have a Sky subscription, so I only watch Freesat channels (on a Grundig receiver) or the DTT trials via the DVB-T tuner in my TV. I spent hours yesterday throwing random DVB software and codecs onto the HTPC and I suspect that I've probably made a mess of it, so I've no problem with doing a fresh install of Windows 7 and starting from scratch. If anyone can answer any/all of these for me, I'd be very grateful.

1. Are there any Windows 7 updates that I should avoid installing for fear of messing with how the DVB cards work?
2. I've downloaded Win7codecs_v221. Which codec pack would you recommend to cover all the bases?
3. Assuming I have the right codecs and hardware drivers installed, is there any reason why I shouldn't be able to use Windows Media Centre to view/record DVB-S and DVB-T with those cards?
4. Is it best to avoid installing the viewer/application software that comes with the Terratec and Hauppauge cards?
5. Both DVB cards come with their own IR remotes, but I'd rather just a Logitech Harmony 895 to control the HTPC entirely. Will I need to use the Logitech wireless extender to control the cards separately, or can WMC control them internally?
6. I don't have a separate AV receiver at the moment and I'd like the HTPC to downmix everything to analogue stereo, particularly the audio from BBC HD. Is there a way to do this?

Many thanks, and apologies if I've missed obvious answers to these elsewhere in the thread or forum.

eddiem74

TskTsk wrote: »

If anyone has the time and patience, I'd appreciate a few pointers regarding my setup. I have the following:

- Windows 7
- For DVB-S2: Terratec Cinergy S2 PCI HD
- For DVB-T: Hauppauge HVR-1700

I don't have a Sky subscription, so I only watch Freesat channels (on a Grundig receiver) or the DTT trials via the DVB-T tuner in my TV. I spent hours yesterday throwing random DVB software and codecs onto the HTPC and I suspect that I've probably made a mess of it, so I've no problem with doing a fresh install of Windows 7 and starting from scratch. If anyone can answer any/all of these for me, I'd be very grateful.

1. Are there any Windows 7 updates that I should avoid installing for fear of messing with how the DVB cards work?
2. I've downloaded Win7codecs_v221. Which codec pack would you recommend to cover all the bases?
3. Assuming I have the right codecs and hardware drivers installed, is there any reason why I shouldn't be able to use Windows Media Centre to view/record DVB-S and DVB-T with those cards?
4. Is it best to avoid installing the viewer/application software that comes with the Terratec and Hauppauge cards?
5. Both DVB cards come with their own IR remotes, but I'd rather just a Logitech Harmony 895 to control the HTPC entirely. Will I need to use the Logitech wireless extender to control the cards separately, or can WMC control them internally?
6. I don't have a separate AV receiver at the moment and I'd like the HTPC to downmix everything to analogue stereo, particularly the audio from BBC HD. Is there a way to do this?

Many thanks, and apologies if I've missed obvious answers to these elsewhere in the thread or forum.

Which version of Windows 7?

If you have windows media center is should recongise your cards, and you just need to run the TV set-up. Once you have your aerial and satellite cable plugged into the card first. You can then control media center with your harmony (assuming your PC has an IR receiver), and this will take care of all channel changing via the tv guide you will use.

I think out of the box codecs are pretty good in W7 so there is minimal needed to start I would say. You should be able to try as is, without a fresh install or anything.

I've played with TV only a little, but don't think anything I have stated is to far off.

TskTsk

eddiem74 wrote: »

Which version of Windows 7?

If you have windows media center is should recongise your cards, and you just need to run the TV set-up. Once you have your aerial and satellite cable plugged into the card first. You can then control media center with your harmony (assuming your PC has an IR receiver), and this will take care of all channel changing via the tv guide you will use.

I think out of the box codecs are pretty good in W7 so there is minimal needed to start I would say. You should be able to try as is, without a fresh install or anything.

I've played with TV only a little, but don't think anything I have stated is to far off.

Cheers for the info.

It's Windows 7 Professional, should that make a difference? When I ran the TV setup option from inside WMC last night, it crashed three or four times in a row. That could be because of all of the additional rubbish I'd installed though.

The PC has an IR receiver built in to the front display panel, so hopefully that'll work with that Harmony then.

eddiem74

TskTsk wrote: »

Cheers for the info.

It's Windows 7 Professional, should that make a difference? When I ran the TV setup option from inside WMC last night, it crashed three or four times in a row. That could be because of all of the additional rubbish I'd installed though.

The PC has an IR receiver built in to the front display panel, so hopefully that'll work with that Harmony then.

Just asked which version to make sure you had media center.

Do you those cards have Win7 drivers or perhaps ensure they have the latest? I think the cards also need to be connected to aerial/sat cables prior to set-up as windows tries to determine a signal being present.

IR in PC should work I believe, not sure what software it uses, IMON? Should be workable though.

TskTsk

- DVB-S2: Terratec Cinergy S2 PCI HD
- DVB-T: Hauppauge HVR-1700

W7MC is currently detecting both receivers, but with mixed results. It successfully scans the DVB-T receiver and displays the four DTT channels without any apparent problems. It's handy to have these, but I'm not too concerned about them in the long run. As for DVB-S2...

Initially, I ran into a bug where the W7MC TV configuration wizard hangs while trying to download the TV Setup Data. The fix described on that site didn't work for me, but when I temporarily selected a US location instead of Ireland/UK it seemed to clear itself up. So now the receiver is being detected by W7MC and it's successfully scanning and detecting pretty much all of the available channels. The problem I have is that when I try to view one of them, MC complains that it cannot detect a signal.

As per meob's blog, I tried DVBViewer and DVBLink. I only had a short time to play with it, but it does appear to work to a certain extent. All the DVB-S channels detected via DVBViewer are viewable via W7MC, but:

• DVBLink starts DVBViewer automatically on bootup, leaving it running in the background (you can hear it but can't see it!) regardless of whether you start W7MC or not. DVBViewer doesn't appear in the taskbar or process list, so there's no way to kill it. Stopping the DVBLink service doesn't have any effect. (DVBLogic are aware of this bug, but have no fix for it right now)
• I can view the Freesat channels in W7MC all right, but as soon as I view a DVB-T channel and try to switch back to DVB-S, I get the 'no signal' error again. So switching between sources doesn't appear to work. I suspect this might be resolved if I set up another instance of DVBViewer that is configured to use my DVB-T card, and let DVBLink handle both of them.

So after all of that, I'm curious as to why I couldn't simply view the DVB-S channels in W7MC, independently of DVBLink/Viewer. I've seen a video on Youtube that indicates that it should definitely be possible to watch Freesat in W7MC.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

bazwaldo

I just browsed this thread quickly and may be missing something. But why do you need DVBViewer or DVBLink? Satellite TV should work in 7MC without any hacking or messing.

TskTsk

bazwaldo wrote: »

I just browsed this thread quickly and may be missing something. But why do you need DVBViewer or DVBLink? Satellite TV should work in 7MC without any hacking or messing.

W7MC just refuses to display DVB-S for me on it's own

I used DVBViewer to prove that there wasn't an issue with the Terratec card itself, nor with the Windows 7 drivers for the card. DVBLink is currently the only way I can get W7MC to display anything for DVB-S.

W7MC definitely 'sees' the card and scans it successfully, it just won't actually display any of the channels (complains of 'no signal').

bazwaldo

TskTsk wrote: »

W7MC just refuses to display DVB-S for me on it's own

I used DVBViewer to prove that there wasn't an issue with the Terratec card itself, nor with the Windows 7 drivers for the card. DVBLink is currently the only way I can get W7MC to display anything for DVB-S.

W7MC definitely 'sees' the card and scans it successfully, it just won't actually display any of the channels (complains of 'no signal').

Very strange. My card is dvb-s and worked without any problems. Can't comment too much on dvb-s2. All I can think of is the drivers for the card need changing which I'm sure you have done already.

There are bound to be others with that card who have tried it in 7MC too. Are others experiencing issues with that card?

Is this link any use?

And if the card if meant to be supported in 7MC, I'd contact Terratec support.

TskTsk

Thanks for getting back to me

bazwaldo wrote: »

Very strange. My card is dvb-s and worked without any problems. Can't comment too much on dvb-s2. All I can think of is the drivers for the card need changing which I'm sure you have done already.

I've got the most recent drivers available, and I have removed/reinstalled the card to make sure they're being applied correctly. No change. I've seen some people say that the Cinergy S2 HD is pretty much a clone of a certain Technisat card, so I might try one of their drivers.

bazwaldo wrote: »

There are bound to be others with that card who have tried it in 7MC too. Are others experiencing issues with that card?

Is this link any use?

Some useful info there, thanks. I'd read about restarting the Windows Media Receiver Service somewhere else this morning, and it does appear to pop up quite frequently where the Terratec card is concerned. The problem with restarting that service is that it's going to require manual intervention each time, and negates a lot of the convenience of a HTPC.

bazwaldo wrote: »

And if the card if meant to be supported in 7MC, I'd contact Terratec support.

I haven't gone down that route yet, their support is supposedly non-existent

kdobey

I'm having a similar problem to TskTsk with my technotrend dvb s2-3200 (tt-3200).

It works fine on tt-viewer (cut down dvbviewer application) on the PC.However while media center (win7-32bit) detects it correctly and all looks great I too get no signal on any channels when i try select !!

There are beta drivers for win7 which I am using and there are reports all over the net of it working for people ... just not me

Every couple of days I try google some more or try something different. Recently I thougth maybe I had a Diseqc switch on the coax near the dish (on roof so can't check - I won't go into it; but only one LNB setup but there might be a disequ up there)

Last night I noticed that in tt-viewer the signal strength is actually quite low when scanning 50-60 (maybe as low as 40% on some frequencies - I can't tell exactly there application just shows a signal strenght bar when scanning which looks about half full (or half empty).

Generally using tt-viewer I get good picture - if it's windy I get break up (but that's probably not helped by the roof location. Since tt-viewer fails the WAF the tuner rarely gets used at all (we have cable).

I wonder if the weak signal is part of the issue.
TskTsk how's your signal strength

TskTsk

Hey,

I was away for the weekend so I'm just starting again from scratch this morning. I have pretty decent signal strength though, and my regular Freesat receiver picks up everything just fine. I'll let you know how I get on, but I'd suspect it'll involves a lot of restarting of the Media Center Receiver Service

TskTsk

It took nearly ten hours of installs and reinstalls yesterday, but I now have W7MC working with both the DVB-S2 and DVB-T cards. Ultimately it came down to having to configure Media Center immediately after the initial Windows 7 Professional installation, before any Windows Update patches or additional software updates were applied. The Windows 7 driver for the Hauppauge DVB-T card worked fine, I just had to install the latest DVB-S driver from Terratec so that Windows could detect the device properly.

Having read about other people's similar experiences, I'd suspect that the Microsoft crypto keys (RSA) are changed somehow after a Windows Update, which seems to prevent Media Center from being able to contact it's servers for the 'Downloading TV Setup Data' segment of the setup routine.

Once it scanned the DVB-T and DVB-S cards, it picked up all of the channels and didn't have any problems displaying them, including BBC HD. Also, I no longer see the problem with switching between both TV sources, where a restart of the Windows Media Center Receiver Service would have been required previously.

Does anyone know if it's possible to configure which particular codecs Media Center utilises for decoding TV and other media sources? The SD picture doesn't look as clear as it does through DVBViewer or a dedicated set-top receiver.

Wiggy

TskTsk wrote: »

Does anyone know if it's possible to configure which particular codecs Media Center utilises for decoding TV and other media sources? The SD picture doesn't look as clear as it does through DVBViewer or a dedicated set-top receiver.

This thread details a way to change WMC codecs in Win 7.

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/t/78749.aspx

I tried it and it completely screwed my ability to play some audio files (MP3s) so I'm not recommending it!

Just passing on the information......

You don't need to mess with windows default codecs for TV viewing.

If you attempt to do anything in that Codec Bible thread, I'd recommend imaging your installation first, so that you can revert easily and quickly.

TskTsk

Wiggy wrote: »

You don't need to mess with windows default codecs for TV viewing.

If you attempt to do anything in that Codec Bible thread, I'd recommend imaging your installation first, so that you can revert easily and quickly.

Yeah, I think my feelings about the picture quality were based on the fact that I was using the TV as a monitor while I was building the box, and was probably just sitting too close to the screen to judge it fairly

The picture seems to take a few seconds to get up to normal speed after switching channels, either on satellite or terrestrial. Anyone know what causes this? It's not a big deal, it just seems odd because there's no CPU load on the machine. I'm assuming it's something to do with WMC transcoding from one format to another and having to buffer it.

ninja 12

Hi,

TskTsk wrote: »

The picture seems to take a few seconds to get up to normal speed after switching channels, either on satellite or terrestrial. Anyone know what causes this? It's not a big deal, it just seems odd because there's no CPU load on the machine. I'm assuming it's something to do with WMC transcoding from one format to another and having to buffer it.

I don't think the slight pause when changing channels is exclusive to WMC .

I'm using a compro S350 DVB-S card with MediaPortal and I get a 1 or 2 second lag with the video when changing channels .

I also got the same lag when i tried using Media Centre (W7 x64) .

Once the lag is gone (2 seconds max) , the picture is fine , I actually think the picture is better on my htpc than my sky box on sd channels .

I don't really take any notice of the lag any more , I guess I got used to it .