Stoat, Mink or something?

Kess73

210 wrote: »

http://www.nonnativespecies.org/documents/Mink,%20American%20(v3b).pdf

Mink V otter data - hope connection works. Mink are widespread in ireland so take dispersion map with a pinch of salt.

Yeah that map is really wrong.


Munster in particular has plenty of mink, and even has Mink/european polecat hybrids which it turns out are fertile and can breed further.

BryanL

Kess73 wrote: »

Otters kill mink and go out of their way to do so. And one of the best lures that illegal trappers used/use to catch otters is either a live mink or mink scent.

Have you got any links or info. to support that?
Thanks, Bryan

Kess73

BryanL wrote: »

Have you got any links or info. to support that?
Thanks, Bryan

Thought it was common knowledge that otters hunt mink, as the other way around was always just an excuse used in the past by those who hunted otters. Poachers, farmers, and hunters being the most obvious culprits. Maybe that excuse, mainly used in the UK, has been passed on to here in Ireland as being a fact when it is only a made up thing. Here are a few newspaper links and a few other links that mention that otters kill mink.




http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/boost-for-wildlife-as-resurgent-otters-kill-marauding-mink-706062.html



http://www.daelnet.co.uk/countrynews/country_news_13092006.cfm


And a link that mentions the effect that even the scent of an otter can have on some mink.



http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115481/40-years-after-vanishing-otters-return-nationwide






http://www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th1i.htm




This link I put up as most people think the European mink is the one we have in Ireland, when in fact our most common mink is the American mink, which often gets confused with being a young otter.


http://www.norfolkwildlifetrust.org.uk/naturalconnections/species_profiles/american_mink




The otters killing minks has pretty much helped the water rat and water vole numbers to rebound again.

cuddlycavies

There is no such thing as a water rat and there are no water voles in Ireland. There is no population crash of rats which live near to water as a result of minks or otters. Also I find it difficult to see how otters expanding their range in England will lead to a mink decline. Why? Because our otter population never really crashed as bad as England but mink have definitely expanded their range. IMHO both species are growing in numbers and range here.

Kess73

cuddlycavies wrote: »

There is no such thing as a water rat and there are no water voles in Ireland. There is no population crash of rats which live near to water as a result of minks or otters. Also I find it difficult to see how otters expanding their range in England will lead to a mink decline. Why? Because our otter population never really crashed as bad as England but mink have definitely expanded their range. IMHO both species are growing in numbers and range here.

A brown rat that has adapted to living in and around water is often referred to as a water rat. We have plenty of them in Ireland.

I never said anything about the rat populations being harmed by otters, I said it was harmed by mink.In areas in Ireland where otters are growing in numbers, the mink populations in those areas are decreasing, and at the same time the water rat/brown rat populations are growing too.

You state that the otter population here in Ireland never crashed like the English one, I would like to know how you can prove that when the first baseline study of otter numbers in Ireland only happened in late 1981 and early 1982, so Irish records only go back 28 years. That baseline study only started in this country because the British government passed a new bylaw for protecting Otters as part of the The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and the Irish government started our study and protection of otters for the first time from that year.

Between 1950 and the mid 1970's the otter population in the UK was almost wiped out, and there were regular otter hunting trips organised here in Ireland in the 70's for otter hunters for the UK to come over to, so there is no doubt that the population here was affected, but as Ireland, unlike the UK, never kept any track on the otter population until 1981, there is no way to no how badly it was affected. Ireland did offer the otter some protection in 1976 though, as otters became listed under schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act 1976 was brought in to curb the hunting of otters here, and it made it illegal to do so after that date. But to say it never crashed at all when this country has no population records at all from the 60's and 70's is folly, but my best guess based on the figures and growth rates since the 80's is that our population was affected, but not as badly as in Britain and in Mainland Europe.



I never said that we had water voles in Ireland, I was just stating what the link I posted was saying how the otter killing the mink has caused both those populations to increase. The article in the link clearly states it is in the UK.

cuddlycavies

Rats live around water because they like it. The term water rat comes about from the assumption that there is a specific type of rat that lives around water. You are correct to point out that there were no surveys pre 81. I never said the population wasn't affected. I said it never crashed. It didn't.

''I never said anything about the rat populations being harmed by otters, I said it was harmed by mink.In areas in Ireland where otters are growing in numbers, the mink populations in those areas are decreasing, and at the same time the water rat/brown rat populations are growing too.''

I take it that you just made this bit up.

Kess73

cuddlycavies wrote: »

Rats live around water because they like it. The term water rat comes about from the assumption that there is a specific type of rat that lives around water. You are correct to point out that there were no surveys pre 81. I never said the population wasn't affected. I said it never crashed. It didn't.

''I never said anything about the rat populations being harmed by otters, I said it was harmed by mink.In areas in Ireland where otters are growing in numbers, the mink populations in those areas are decreasing, and at the same time the water rat/brown rat populations are growing too.''

I take it that you just made this bit up.

I take it that you are just trying to bait me.


I have already said to you that brown rats who live near rivers are often referred to as water rats. No they are not actual water rats, but often get called so in Ireland and the UK.

You are also incorrect to say that the term water rat comes from the assumption that there are specific rats that live in and around water.

It is no assumption as there are 18 species of rat that are termed water rats because their habitats are very specific. They include the earless water rat , the African water rat, the golden-bellied water rat, and the Peruvian fish eating rat. 11 of the water rat species live in the Western Hemisphere. So to say that the term water rat does not exist just shows that you have no idea what you are on about here.

I was asked to show links that said that otters kill minks, to disprove an assumption on the thread that mink kill otter. I did that.

You came on and made a ridiculous claim that there is no such thing as a water rat. I have given you some names there to google to show you that there are 18 types of rat that have been specifically grouped together and officially termed water rats.



You say I am making things up. Well I am able to back up what I am saying, whereas all you seem able to do is come out and claim that animals don't exist despite them having 18 different and listed species.

My experience in this field is due to my involvement with the department of zoology's Wildlife Ecology Group in Trinity college. I was part of the team that did the field work and data imput for their otter survey for Ireland. We worked alongside the National Parks and Wildlife Service for this survey and for the upcoming one.

The next official Irish otter survey survey is due to be done in 2010/2011, and if you wish to get facts and figures, then I suggest you find a way to get involved, or wait for those figures to be published so that you can compare them to the last survey.

I would also ask you to go online and read through the results of the three otter surveys done in Ireland since 1981. The results of those have shown that otter figures had decreased significantly in Ireland between the 1981/82 survey and the 1990/91 survey. That rate of decrease has been shown to have decreased by the results of the urvey I was involved in, which was in, which was the 2004/2005 survey.






The below link will put you on the website where you can access the otter surveys.


http://www.environ.ie/en/



After you do a bit of research on it, please do come back to me and state where you got your "facts" on how the Irish otter population never declined badly here. When the surveys show that there has been a drop of almost 20% in otter numbers here in Ireland during the 80's and 90's alone, despite otters being a protected species during that time, and despite the otter hunts that did occur here in the 70's being a thing of the past.

cuddlycavies

I know how I'm expected to answer the above post. But wont bother as you are way off topic anyway and getting abusive. Enough to say, you answered misinfomation(or what you saw as such) with more misinformation. Stoats are sometimes called weasels in Ireland but they are still stoats, ''Water'' Rats are brown rats. Where is your information to prove that rat populations have been dented by minks or otters in Ireland?

Kess73

cuddlycavies wrote: »

I know how I'm expected to answer the above post. But wont bother as you are way off topic anyway and getting abusive. Enough to say, you answered misinfomation(or what you saw as such) with more misinformation. Stoats are sometimes called weasels in Ireland but they are still stoats, ''Water'' Rats are brown rats. Where is your information to prove that rat populations have been dented by minks or otters in Ireland?

There was nothing abusive in my post and yet again you try to change what I said. At no point did I say that rat populations were decreased by otters, I said over and over that it was by minks.

You placed a "water" before the term water rat, so I guess that must not exist either.

You ask about information regarding the rat population being dented by mink, so I take it that you did not bother to go through the environ website where it gets stated in the Otter survey that the rat population improved in areas where the mink population was decreased due to otter predation.


All three surveys that I mentioned, which are the only surveys ever done in this country on Otter populations and on the other species that otter have impacted on in either a positive or negative manner, are available online to read. You had the years given to you, and all of them state what I have said to you.

If you want to call what I said to you misinformation, then I guess those surveys must be misinformation then.

You say that you won't bother to reply to my questions. That does not surprise me as you seem to be unable to list anywhere where your facts have come from. All you were able to do was try to throw smart remarks like that the term water rat was based on an assumption and then you said there was no such thing as a water rat, when in fact there are 18 species of water rat, of which I named a few for you.

You then made a remark about how the otter populations were not heavily impacted here in Ireland like they were in England. The surveys I mentioned to you all say that otter numbers are still decreasing in ireland and that during the 80's and 90's that that population decreased in a very significant manner. That information is there in the surveys in black and white, and I checked with a quick google search and the pages with that informations comes up fairly early in the search.

You kept repeating that I said Otter decreased the rat population as well as mink decreasing the rat population despite me never saying that otters did that, and you accused me of making it up.

meathstevie

The long and short of it is that the American mink is an extremely destructive non-native animal that does serious amounts of damage to native wildlife and poultry.

cuddlycavies

okay. There are no water rats in Ireland. They have all been eaten by minks which in turn have been eaten by otters. Rant over.

BryanL

Otters were legally hunted in Ireland until 1989. Kess have you anything better than articles from english news papers? like links to the actual studies?

You say above that mink scent is used to trap otters, but the only mention of otter or mink scent in the stories you put up is

" but otters drive away and even kill mink. The mere smell of an otter can frighten young mink to death"

I find it hard to believe the second part of that, which makes me question the first bit.

BryanL

Kess73 wrote: »

Otters kill mink and go out of their way to do so.

At the start of this decade there was a massive slump in mink numbers both here and in the UK, that coincided with the increase in otter numbers.

The otter numbers came back up, and they in turn killed and fed on the minks

There has been no increase in Otter numbers in Ireland!

Mink make up no part of otter diet.
Here's some information for you From Ireland, there is a bit of water between here and england.

From NPWS;
The otter is an opportunistic predator that exploits prey in proportion to its
availability in the environment (Breathnach & Fairley, 1993; Ottino & Giller,
2004). In Ireland, as throughout Europe, diet is predominantly of aquatic
origin. In freshwater areas, otter droppings, known as spraints, commonly
contain stickleback, salmonids, frogs and eels (Bailey & Rochford, 2006),
while crayfish can be a dominant prey species locally (McFadden & Fairley,
1983). Terrestrial prey is taken infrequently, with birds occurring in just 3%
of spraints and mammals occurring even more rarely (Bailey & Rochford,
2006).
1.5 The first national otter sign survey found otters throughout the Republic of
Ireland, and recorded signs at 88% of 2,042 sites (Chapman & Chapman,
1982). A smaller follow-up survey of 246 sites carried out a decade later
found a highly significant 13% decrease in otter presence (Lunnon &
Reynolds, 1991). The most recent otter survey, carried out 14 years later,
searched 525 sites and found that otter presence had declined by a further
5% to just over 70% (Bailey & Rochford, 2006). This trend was corroborated by a 10% decline in otter presence in Northern Ireland over the same period
(Preston et al., 2006). There has been little spatial variation to the decline in
either jurisdiction (Preston et al., 2004; Bailey & Rochford, 2006) suggesting
that there may be a general decline in the density of the island’s otter
population (Preston et al., 2006).

1.7 The otter has been protected in Ireland since 1976 (Wildlife Act 1976).
Licenses to hunt otters were issued under this Act until the 1990s. The
Wildlife Amendment Act (2000) removed the hunting clause entirely and it
is now illegal, to hunt, disturb, or intentionally kill otters

Kess73

BryanL wrote: »

Otters were legally hunted in Ireland until 1989. Kess have you anything better than articles from english news papers? like links to the actual studies?

You say above that mink scent is used to trap otters, but the only mention of otter or mink scent in the stories you put up is

" but otters drive away and even kill mink. The mere smell of an otter can frighten young mink to death"

I find it hard to believe the second part of that, which makes me question the first bit.

Otters became protected animals in Ireland from 1976. Yes they could be hunted up until onto the 1990's not 1989, but until upon being granted a licence which was only issued under certain circumstances.

cuddlycavies

Kess73 wrote: »

Otters became protected animals in Ireland from 1976. Yes they could be hunted up until 1989, but until upon being granted a licence which was only issued under certain circumstances.

Like if they were eating all your' mink and following ladies in fur coats down the street:)

BryanL

Kess73 wrote: »

Where have you gotten that from?

At the start of this decade there was a massive slump in mink numbers both here and in the UK, that coincided with the increase in otter numbers.

.

Kess , that just isn't true. Ireland is not the UK.
Bryan

who the fug

Any work been done on Stoat numbers since the Mink became widespread.

cuddlycavies

who the fug wrote: »

Any work been done on Stoat numbers since the Mink became widespread.

No. They're too busy eating otters:)

Valmont

I had a mink put his front legs on my boot and look up at me like a little dog last summer. I know how that sounds but I swear it happened. It was very strange to say the least.

OP, if you're worried about the mink getting at the chickens, it shouldn't be too much trouble to place a few conibear sets around the place. Put them in trees so the dogs don't get at them.

cuddlycavies

Yes this happened me on time also. I dont think their eyesight is that good.