Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

For those interested in the Public / Private sector wage debate

Options
245

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,455 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Because of the shorter working lives of some public servants before they get their pension ( eg Gardai 30 years, Judges 15 years ), ps people in these sectors should be paying something like 48% and 80 % of their salary respectively if they were to pay for the full economic cost of their pension....this was confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on frontline RTE tv exactly 8 days ago.

    Senior barristers who accept a seat on the bench (i.e. become judges) do so for no other reason that that they get a pension, all of them take an income hit when they go from private practice to a judge's salary but the pension cannot be bought so in return for a few years on the bench their retirement is taken care of.

    Against that it has to be said that you'd never be able to get decent lawyers as judges if the system didn't operate the way it does.


  • Options
    #33
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    I think there is a few myths flying around here.

    First of all PS worker have contributed to their pensions before the introduction of the pension levy. The pension levy is an additional contribution. You may argue their pension is better than yours or you may argue they haven't contributed enough but when your saying this is the first time they contribute to it you're following a myth/lie.

    Secondly, the state has provided defined benefits pensions to PS workers in the past and a lot of those have to mature yet. Nobody does provide defined benefits pensions anymore and neither does the state. One can hardly argue that those people who have older defined benefit pension contracts need to have those contracts annulled. Newer pensions are defined contribution pensions and while they may be more secure than 'our' pensions they're hardly 'gold plated'.


  • Options
    #34
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    optocynic wrote: »
    Once again I ask. How much of my basic salary would I have to pay to a pension each month to receive a pension as lucrative as the PS one?

    I don't think this is how it works Opto. You can't argue against this and ask your opponent to provide your arguments for you.

    This can be done if it is a rhetorical question, but in this case I don't think it is. To me it seems that instead the following is the case:

    If there is such a thing as an average value of a typical PS pension that someone could work out... You have no idea what that would be.

    And to how much of a pension contribution that would translate for a similar salary in the private sector... You have no idea either.

    So you're basing your arguments on assumptions and trying to trap someone into saying something - doing the work for you - that you probably have no facts against either, but surely you would try to slate that someone over it.

    I say lol.


  • Options
    #35
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Because of the shorter working lives of some public servants before they get their pension ( eg Gardai 30 years, Judges 15 years ), ps people in these sectors should be paying something like 48% and 80 % of their salary respectively if they were to pay for the full economic cost of their pension....this was confirmed by Eddie Hobbs on frontline RTE tv exactly 8 days ago.

    indeed it was and the public sector suit the other side in his protestations decided to stick his fingers in his ears and shout , wah wah wah wah wah wah wah , i cant hear you


  • Options
    #36
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    realcam wrote: »
    I don't think this is how it works Opto. You can't argue against this and ask your opponent to provide your arguments for you.

    This can be done if it is a rhetorical question, but in this case I don't think it is. To me it seems that instead the following is the case:

    If there is such a thing as an average value of a typical PS pension that someone could work out... You have no idea what that would be.

    And to how much of a pension contribution that would translate for a similar salary in the private sector... You have no idea either.

    So you're basing your arguments on assumptions and trying to trap someone into saying something - doing the work for you - that you probably have no facts against either, but surely you would try to slate that someone over it.

    I say lol.

    It was rhetorical!
    We all know the numbers... on average, 29% - 33% of a private sector workers pay would have to be going to their pension to provide the chubby pension a Public sector worker gets.
    To get the same as a Garda... 48%..
    And the PS are pissin' and moaning about 7%..
    That's just damn rude!

    No assumptions.. I was just not expecting to be talking to obtuse children!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    And the PS are pissin' and moaning about 7%..
    That's just damn rude!

    no..they are moaning about an additional 7% for no extra benefit


  • Options
    #38
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    You give a group of people an increasingly valuable subsidised handout all their lives and then some of them object to pay a higher cost towards same. Most still realise what a great pension it is despite the 7% though. For example, ask a Garda who has just taken early retirement aged 50 and who has an pension pot worth over a million, and who is likely to live for another 30 years. The average wage of a Garda is 60 grand a year. What group from the private sector can retire after only 30 years service ? Well ? ?????????
    The insult though is those PS who are "are pissin' and moaning about 7%.", as another poster put it. Some in the public service do not appreciate how lucky they are to have the big pensions they do, when most p.s. have seen their pensions + investments to fund their pensions decimated.


  • Options
    #39
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »
    no..they are moaning about an additional 7% for no extra benefit

    It's still only 7%... If they were on a sh!t basic I would understand that.. but we ALL know that is not true!.. The ESRI have the proof..

    So, to moan about it is still rude!..


  • Options
    #40
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Some in the public service do not appreciate how lucky they are to have the big pensions they do, when most p.s. have seen their pensions + investments to fund their pensions decimated.

    Defined contribution benefits by their nature will go down in value as well as up. It is only those who are currently approaching retirement that need worry. The DC pensions while decimated now have the potential to regain and even exceed their previous peak values and even exceed the value of a DB pension.


  • Options
    #41
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    EF wrote: »
    Defined contribution benefits by their nature will go down in value as well as up. It is only those who are currently approaching retirement that need worry. The DC pensions while decimated now have the potential to regain and even exceed their previous peak values and even exceed the value of a DB pension.

    I agree with you, but, that is reliant on business allowed to generate profit and success!.
    Something that will never happen in this country, since our unions don't like to see the successful get rich and generate profit!..


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    bauderline
    Registered Users Posts: 898 ✭✭✭bauderline


    InReality wrote: »
    I've worked in both.

    The key difference , which I've seldom seen mentioned , is that in a private company you can be promoted as quickly as your ability allows.

    This is not the case in the public sector.

    Private sector... If things are going well and in some situations rapid promotion is possible.... not a given by any means...

    Public sector.... Promotion is rarely linked to performance.... position to be filled... will be filled either by the "next in line" or he/she who is on good termsn with the line manager....

    My wife works in a certain hospital in the North East.... so I have gained a decent account of how things work over the years...


  • Options
    #43
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Ah, the old pensions debate. There is a lot of misinformation and half truths flying about on both sides.

    Firstly, it is possible to calculate out the cost of a public sector pension on an actuarial basis. The fact is that the pension payment is linked to the salary of the role and includes future increases for those who are employed in that role. So, if you were perfoming a certain job when you retired 10 years ago and the salary for that job increases, your pension increases accordingly. The pension is worked out to give a certain percentage of final salary for every year worked up to a maximum of 2/3rds of that final salary (the exact percentage per year may be different for Gardai who retire earlier than it would be for clerical officers). To add such escalating benefits to a standard DB pension scheme would be massively expensive as the pension providers would be taking a huge risk, their future liabilities would depend on pay increases agreed into the future for workers - they would have open ended commitments.

    Secondly, Jimmmy asks about where in the private sector one can retire on full pension benefits after 30 years. Company directors can quite easily amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 if they cut ties with the company. There is nothing from stopping them from setting up another business after this. If a PAYE worker is willing to contribute enough into a personal pension or PRSA, they could in theory max their pension between the ages of 35 and 65 (or 30 and 60 if they retire early).

    The truth is, as always, somewhere in between - the public sector pension is generous and valuable and I would be willing to pay 7% of my salary for such a benefit in a heartbeat. At the same time, a canny employee or employer in the private sector can do equally as well with some forward planning (though they would have to contribute large amounts of their salary/company funds to get there).


  • Options
    #44
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    It's still only 7%...

    7.5% average its actually up to 10%

    therefore I am paying


    Levy 7.5%
    Superannuation 6.5%
    Widows and children contribution 1.5%
    PRSI 10.75% (and the ceiling removed this year)

    so, over 26%.....

    and I am expecting the levy to be increased further in the budget


  • Options
    #45
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bauderline wrote: »
    Public sector.... Promotion is rarely linked to performance.... position to be filled... will be filled either by the "next in line" or he/she who is on good termsn with the line manager....

    thats no longer in most sectors of the public service.....although you are talking about the HSE...and nothing would surprise me about that cracked system


  • Options
    #46
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Secondly, Jimmmy asks about where in the private sector one can retire on full pension benefits after 30 years.

    I actually asked "What group from the private sector can retire after only 30 years service ? Well ? ?????????"
    Long Onion wrote: »
    Company directors can quite easily amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 if they cut ties with the company.

    lol lol. No, company directors can not " quite easily amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 "......the very very few lucky fliers can, but there are a lot of limited companies in the country - most are not making money - and 99.9% of the directors of these companies do not have a pension fund 5 grand by age 50 ? lol. What a wind up merchant you are. Why do you not go in to business if its quite easy to " amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 " ??????????????:D
    Long Onion wrote: »
    At the same time, a canny employee or employer in the private sector can do equally as well with some forward planning (though they would have to contribute large amounts of their salary/company funds to get there).
    Compared to the average Garda pension pot, it would take something like 30 years of take home pay of the average industrial worker to amass that. Do you think the average industrial worker could live on air, not eat and not have a car or clothes or a roof over his head for 30 years ?


  • Options
    #47
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I actually asked "What group from the private sector can retire after only 30 years service ? Well ? ?????????"

    anybody can retire whenever they decide to
    the very very few lucky fliers can,

    I'd say there are more of them than there are public servants earning over €700,000 that you keep mentioning
    lol. What a wind up merchant you are

    Mr Kettle to Mr Pot: "You are black"


  • Options
    #48
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Thats 7.5% less pension tax relief Riskymove, probably a 3%-4% reduction?


  • Options
    #49
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »
    7.5% average its actually up to 10%

    therefore I am paying


    Levy 7.5%
    Superannuation 6.5%
    Widows and children contribution 1.5%
    PRSI 10.75% (and the ceiling removed this year)

    so, over 26%.....

    and I am expecting the levy to be increased further in the budget

    You know I agree with you on how we need to tackle this situation Riskymove... but, when I read the post above.. I feel like saying... 'Boo-F*cking-Hoo'....

    I get a quarterly bonus based on performance and team success... I eventually get to see about 51% of it. I work HARD to get to that level of success... as do my team.. Do you get hit that hard for successful business and results?

    And 26% is still a far cry from 33% pension cpontribution, which is what I would have to contribute to get a pension on the same scale as yours..

    I pay PRSI too you know!!!..
    And the health Levy..
    And heavy BIK on any additional benefits!

    And my job could be gone tomorrow if my company gets in trouble...


  • Options
    #50
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    optocynic wrote: »
    I agree with you, but, that is reliant on business allowed to generate profit and success!.
    Something that will never happen in this country, since our unions don't like to see the successful get rich and generate profit!..

    In the budget in April VAT was left pretty much untouched but the revenue generated fell.
    Yet Corporation Tax was left untouched and the amount of revenue taken in increased. That would imply to me that indigenous Irish firms are not attracting custom because they are uncompetitive. The Unions can take their own position but mutli nationals are doing pretty well from the figures in the latest exchequer statement.


  • Options
    #51
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    EF wrote: »
    In the budget in April VAT was left pretty much untouched but the revenue generated fell.
    Yet Corporation Tax was left untouched and the amount of revenue taken in increased. That would imply to me that indigenous Irish firms are not attracting custom because they are uncompetitive. The Unions can take their own position but mutli nationals are doing pretty well from the figures in the latest exchequer statement.

    Did you just compare multinational corporate tax to VAT?
    Apples and Oranges doesn't even being to explain the difference..

    Apples and battleships is a closer analogy!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats 7.5% less pension tax relief Riskymove, probably a 3%-4% reduction?

    everyone is entitled to that are they not? is it really at a 50% rate?

    in any event 7.5% is the average, it can be up to 10% before any relief

    You know I agree with you on how we need to tackle this situation Riskymove... but, when I read the post above.. I feel like saying... 'Boo-F*cking-Hoo'....

    I didnt say I have any problem paying this or more.....

    ... I simply wanted to make a point that many are under the illusion that there is little or no contributions to state pensions (i.e. that the levy is the only contribution and before that there was nothing) which is not the case

    Do you get hit that hard for successful business and results?

    we dont get any bonuses regardless of results...the performance management system is hopeless as you know...is it really any wonder why there are issues

    would you expect your colleagues to all work as hard if there was no recognition of that and all were dealt with the same waster and hard-worker alike?

    seeking to treat both waster and hard-worker alike is ultimately self-defeating....looking for the reform would be better or as Impact have put it today...go beyond reform and have transformation

    And 26% is still a far cry from 33% pension cpontribution, which is what I would have to contribute to get a pension on the same scale as yours..

    well, I also had a 12% reduction in a pay award which was supposed to to be because of the value of my pension


  • Options
    #53
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats 7.5% less pension tax relief Riskymove, probably a 3%-4% reduction?
    It was not subject to pension tax relief as it was not a pension contribution. Did you not read the legislation?

    It was treated by Revenue the same as a pay-cut. Situation similar to private sector employees whose pay was cut, they were not taxed on what they did not receive.


  • Options
    #54
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I actually asked "What group from the private sector can retire after only 30 years service ? Well ? ?????????"

    As already stated by another poster, you can retire whenever the hell you like. I presumed that you meant on full pension as to do otherwise would mean that the question was really, really stupid - oh well ...
    jimmmy wrote: »
    lol lol. No, company directors can not " quite easily amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 "......the very very few lucky fliers can, but there are a lot of limited companies in the country - most are not making money - and 99.9% of the directors of these companies do not have a pension fund 5 grand by age 50 ? lol. What a wind up merchant you are. Why do you not go in to business if its quite easy to " amass a maximum pension fund of just over €5m and retire at ge 50 " ??????????????:D

    Obviously your company has to be profitable. I deal with large numbers of small private limited companies, believe me there are a huge number who can do this quite easily, the money is shielded from creditors and can be passed to family after death in a very tax efficient manner. Just because people decide not to phone you and tell you their pension arrangements does not mean that they don't have any. Anyone with a tax bill should have a pension, if you end up with only 5K in it you either had a sh1te business or sh1te accountant.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    Compared to the average Garda pension pot, it would take something like 30 years of take home pay of the average industrial worker to amass that. Do you think the average industrial worker could live on air, not eat and not have a car or clothes or a roof over his head for 30 years ?

    Show me the figure for the average Gardai pension pot and I will tell you within 10 mins how much you would need to contribute to a personal pension to get there. You mentioned a sum of €1,000,000 so lets run with that - A 35 year old paying any tax at the 41% marginal rate would have a €1,000,000 pension pot (assuming growth of 6% p.a. which is below the average) by the age of 65 for a net monthly contribution of €488.99 per month. Hardly ultra high flier stuff there Jimmmy.


  • Options
    #55
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Long Onion wrote: »

    Show me the figure for the average Gardai pension pot and I will tell you within 10 mins how much you would need to contribute to a personal pension to get there. You mentioned a sum of €1,000,000 so lets run with that - A 35 year old paying any tax at the 41% marginal rate would have a €1,000,000 pension pot (assuming growth of 6% p.a. which is below the average) by the age of 65 for a net monthly contribution of €488.99 per month. Hardly ultra high flier stuff there Jimmmy.

    Does anyone here know the average annual salary of a Garda? I'm just curious.
    A Net monthly contribution of €488.99 seems pretty steep to me for someone on the national avergae wage... or someone even on twice the average wage!..
    Also, can't Gardai retire after their 30 years are up? (I'm not sure if this is true.. correct me if it's not).. that would allow for retirement well before 65...
    Not completely disagreeing with you LongOnion.. just raising questions..


  • Options
    #56
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    optocynic wrote: »
    A Net monthly contribution of €488.99 seems pretty steep to me for someone on the national avergae wage... or someone even on twice the average wage!..
    Most public & private workers are entitled to a state-guaranteed pension which is not based on the amount contributed.


  • Options
    #57
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    optocynic wrote: »
    Does anyone here know the average annual salary of a Garda? I'm just curious.

    the average wage in an garda siochana is around €1,200

    thats including all grades not just rank and file

    edit: thats weekly, including overtime

    A Net monthly contribution of €488.99 seems pretty steep to me for someone on the national avergae wage... or someone even on twice the average wage!..

    its not cheap certainly but the question is about raising a pension pot of €1m in 30 years, not about the average industrial wage

    there are many private sector people who could pay this contribution if they chose to

    Also, can't Gardai retire after their 30 years are up? (I'm not sure if this is true.. correct me if it's not).. that would allow for retirement well before 65...

    his figures seem to be based on a 35 year old paying a pension for 30 years and getting it at 65, i.e. 30 years, am not sure if making it a 20 yo paying until 50 would change figures?


  • Options
    #58
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    Riskymove wrote: »

    the average wage in an garda siochana is around €1,200

    thats including all grades not just rank and file

    I'm assuming that is weekly?
    Riskymove wrote: »
    its not cheap certainly but the question is about raising a pension pot of €1m in 30 years, not about the average industrial wage

    there are many private sector people who could pay this contribution if they chose to

    I doubt that... only a small handful of successful people could afford that amount each month. And the ones who could afford it, usually don't retire until very late in life.. as they are climbing the corporate ladder... unless they discover Golf of course...
    Riskymove wrote: »
    his figures seem to be based on a 35 year old paying a pension for 30 years and getting it at 65, i.e. 30 years, am not sure if making it a 20 yo paying until 50 would change figures?

    Isn't a Garda's pension being 'paid' into from his/her first day?.. What age would that be?.. early 20's?.. hence, the working till 65 thing is a bit off.


  • Options
    #59
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    optocynic wrote: »
    Does anyone here know the average annual salary of a Garda? I'm just curious.
    A Net monthly contribution of €488.99 seems pretty steep to me for someone on the national avergae wage... or someone even on twice the average wage!..
    Also, can't Gardai retire after their 30 years are up? (I'm not sure if this is true.. correct me if it's not).. that would allow for retirement well before 65...
    Not completely disagreeing with you LongOnion.. just raising questions..

    I can't say that i know the average salary of a Garda - Jimmmy raised this. The €488.99 is what would be required to have €1,000,000 pension fund after 30 years - you could start at 25 and finish at 55 if you so wished, the cost of funding does not change as long as there are 30 years to run.

    As for the cost, it is €122 per week to have a million euro on the day you retire. Many poeple spend this on car repayments, fuel, life cover, drinking, eating out. It is a matter of what your priorities are.

    As the average pension tends to be reflective of one's salary, it would be rare that someone on the average ind. wage would accumulate €1,000,000 in a pension. To have €500,000 (still a good sum) would cost €66 per week.

    Also people tend to have more disposable income as they get closer to retirement so they could contribute a smaller amount to begin with and increase it as their overheads decrease (kids grow up, mortgage reduces, salary increases etc.)


  • Options
    #60
    optocynic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭optocynic


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Most public & private workers are entitled to a state-guaranteed pension which is not based on the amount contributed.

    How much is it?
    I'm just asking, I have no idea... just curious..


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    optocynic wrote: »
    How much is it?
    I'm just asking, I have no idea... just curious..

    If I recall correctly (and I am a bit rusty here so am open to correction) full service (i.e. 40 yrs) would give you a pension for life of 2/3rd's of your final salary which would increase in line with salary increases for those who are doing your job (i.e. your replacement gets a 10% pay rise, your pension goes up accordingly - not sure if it goes up by 10% or 2/3rds of 10%)

    You also get a tax free lump sum of 1.5 times annual salary on leaving service.


Advertisement