Brian Lenihan - We never said we'd have a strong economy and loads of jobs [YES vote]

Tir

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??

Brian Lenihan on Vincent Browne show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCxoL0gjtFY


Also, you might want to watch this one if you haven't seen it already.. the crooks win again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

Long Onion

Here we go again methinks ...

thebman

:P
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1005/breaking47.htm

http://www.generationyes.ie/2009/09/21/lisbon-greening-the-irish-jobs-market/

And Lisbon isn't actually in force yet.

hatrickpatrick

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

free-man

Disgraceful.

The man has no shame, even lying about lying :eek:

free-man

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

meditraitor

Tir wrote: »

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

The recovery wil happen,

You heard it here first folks, just lets hope we get shot of FF and the Yellows first

opinion guy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There is one good thing to come out of all this. The current government is almost certainly going to collapse sooner rather than later and they will never, ever gain power here again by the looks of things...

Are you kidding me ? as usual by the time the next election roles around all will be forgotten.....better the devil you know....and all that and we'll be doubly screwed.

on the plus side - havne't u heard - house prices are up 4% - yes thats unsustainable but its great for nama. the great gamble will pay off and nama will make them a fortune and we'll be stuck with these clowns for even longer

Long Onion

Tir wrote: »

The backtracking continues!!! Economically speaking this country is screwed for years to come, whether it was yes or no, the only difference is we would have been sovereign if we had sent a loud and clear NO. Will Irish people ever learn??

Brian Lenihan on Vincent Browne show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCxoL0gjtFY


Also, you might want to watch this one if you haven't seen it already.. the crooks win again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE



Ah well - the next budget will wake "the people" up with its massive cuts in spending. You will be wondering how "Yes to Recovery" ever got by you.

Change the record please. The fact is that many of our largest employers believed that a No vote would be harmful to employment in the future as we are viewed as a stepping stone to the EU market.

Was this misrepresented and spun by a number of Yes side supporters - undoubtedly so. Did the informed believe it - I doubt it.

The only people who fell for this were those who failed to exercise any idependant thought and chose not to research issues for themselves but instead to base their choice on a poster campaign.

The No side did the same with ill-informed posters on a number of issues. I was under no impression that a yes vote would create jobs, but I do think that it will benefit our economy and citizens in the long run.

It is only a conspiracy if you are lazy or poorly informed.

free-man

Interesting quotes from that IT article:

However, it added that while the Yes vote was "rating supportive," the negative outlook remains with Moody's expecting a further deterioration of Ireland's debt affordability.

Although the Yes vote is supportive for Ireland’s creditworthiness, the outlook on Ireland's Aa1 long-term government bond ratings remains negative, reflecting the risk of a further, gradual deterioration in its debt affordability,"

"Ireland’s ability to reverse negative debt dynamics in a low growth environment will be tested.”

Sounds like a great environment for FDI, and job creation.

hobochris

free-man wrote: »

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

The Irish people endorsed the Lisbon treaty not the ff/yellows(:D) government.

It would be very silly of the government to mistake a yes on Lisbon to approval of the government.Only a fool would think otherwise.

time will tell what happens as a result of a yes vote, but approval of Lisbon != approval of government.

Sam Vimes

free-man wrote: »

Are you joking? There's no chance now after the endorsement of the Government with a Yes vote.

Nama will pass and the country will be f****cked

It's truly mind boggling that you're so absolutely sure that a yes vote will keep the government in power until 2012 while being equally sure that it won't bring a single cent into the country that wouldn't otherwise have come. can you point to the article that says a yes vote saves Fianna Fail please?

free-man wrote: »

Interesting quotes from that IT article:

However, it added that while the Yes vote was "rating supportive," the negative outlook remains with Moody's expecting a further deterioration of Ireland's debt affordability.

Although the Yes vote is supportive for Ireland’s creditworthiness, the outlook on Ireland's Aa1 long-term government bond ratings remains negative, reflecting the risk of a further, gradual deterioration in its debt affordability,"

"Ireland’s ability to reverse negative debt dynamics in a low growth environment will be tested.”

Sounds like a great environment for FDI, and job creation.

Yes the article says that, while the yes vote helped, it's not the solution to all of our problems. It's only people on the no side who ever suggested that Lisbon must mean either total economic recovery or nothing

Tir

thebman wrote: »

:P
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1005/breaking47.htm

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

hobochris

Tir wrote: »

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

Viva la firesale!

Rb

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

hobochris

Rb wrote: »

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

Em.. WTF?

bugler

The thing that made me so sick of Lisbon was how hysterical it had become. Once either side was going to stray from the truth both were. And of course, truth is a subjective concept in politics.

The electorate is sadly not sophisticated enough to weigh up these matters on their actual details. How many people voted based on what the treaty actually meant? Few. Most votes were based on loose, general concepts or fears. People weren't stirred by the promise of the Citizens Initiative, or the increased transparency of the Council of Ministers meetings. You'd do well to find many who would have a clue of what you were talking about if you asked them about these topics. The electorate were motivated by a fear of being left behind, or a fear of being taken over. The nuances were lost on them.

As such, there was no point in either side being nuanced in their campaigns. The Yes side couldn't hope to respond to fears over the minimum wage being cut with rational dialogue, so they stuck the words "Jobs", "Investments", and "Recovery" up on their posters instead. In the same way "Independence" and "Race To The Bottom" tended to feature on the No side. There really isn't enough room on a poster for an intelligent riposte to the fears of either side, so instead we have catchphrase campaigning. I thought Labour's literature was generally more moderate (or vague, depending on your viewpoint) on the issue of 'Yes' meaning jobs or recovery. I could be wrong on that though.

The type of political culture we have doesn't lend itself to reasoned debate or even proper information. People don't want to take your leaflets in the street, so they certainly don't want to listen to you harping on about what they see as political small print.

As ever, it is a chicken and egg scenario. Have the Irish people got the political system they deserve, or are we simply the victims of it?

Anyway, politicans make unreasonable claims, promises and lie outright in every campaign...why should this be any different? And are you going to revisit the No campaigners with similar vigour when abortion, euthanasia and a €1.84 minimum wage fail to materialise?

Tir

Rb wrote: »

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

.. Please take the time to read your post again before coming out with such nonsense!

Remember the good old days when we had the confidence, fair judgement and intelligence to rule ourselves in an Irish Ireland - what an outrageous concept!?

I don't have the Irish inferiority complex that afflicts your kind, sorry.

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

A government is only as bad as the people it administers; the referendum belied the substance from which modern Irish people are now made. They are not of the same stuff as their fathers, and what Ireland is known for.

Handsome Bob

hobochris wrote: »

Em.. WTF?

Self-styled intellectual snobbery I believe.

hobochris

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Self-styled intellectual snobbery I believe.

I was wondering..

thebman

Tir wrote: »

That the markets still rise, sometimes in a seemingly unstoppable fashion, when millions are continuing to be laid off in Europe and US would indicate what?

Major Banks posted record profits in the last year.. yet the economy is still in decline. People are more in debt than ever, can't pay their mortgages, demand for luxury goods is in decline [depression], commodities continually rise in value.. stock markets, they are not a representation of reality. Maybe if they revalued everything for what it's actually worth the markets would tell a very different story!!

Some will focus on the markets, but still others, some the more wiser will see grim reality in the next budget, markets be damned.

Its a sign that convidence is increasing that less companies will go under. If a company doesn't go under, they will still be employing people and are getting business.

Consumer convidence is also increasing and as they start spending more or investing more, jobs will follow as companies start to have more demand than they have had recently and are making more profits.

Rb

Tir wrote: »

.. Please take the time to read your post again before coming out with such nonsense!

Oh dear, it seems to have gone straight over your head. Particularly when you go on to follow it up with:

Tir wrote:

Remember the good old days when we had the confidence, fair judgement and intelligence to rule ourselves in an Irish Ireland - what an outrageous concept!?

I don't have the Irish inferiority complex that afflicts your kind, sorry.

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

What?

Tir wrote:

A government is only as bad as the people it administers; the referendum belied the substance from which modern Irish people are now made. They are not of the same stuff as their fathers, and what Ireland is known for.

So let's go back in time, am I right?

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Irelands history isn't as glamorous as you might like to think.

turgon

Tir wrote: »

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

And what exactly is that?

hobochris

Consumer confidence is a great thing but given our current situation(where many consumers have previously relied on credit and have very little in un-borrowed cash), It appears that credit may be needed to unfreeze business trading, which Im guessing is the purpose of Nama(something im not a fan of), the problem with this though is while the government can lead the banks to water(free up their books), they cant make them drink(start lending again).

seamus

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?

If anyone had half a brain, it's clear that the posters were saying, "A Yes vote will improve our chances of economic recovery, thereby holding onto the jobs we already have and bringing job growth back to normal levels".

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

Tir, Ireland was an economic basket case back in 1973, a complete shambles. Proof that the DeValera view of a traditional Ireland which was enforced by the post-independence governments couldn't supply a quality of life comparable with the rest of Europe.

Sam Vimes

hobochris wrote: »

Consumer confidence is a great thing but given our current situation, It appears that credit may be needed to unfreeze business trading, which Im guessing is the purpose of Nama(something im not a fan of), the problem with this though is while the government can lead the banks to water(free up their books), they cant make them drink(start lending again).

That's exactly the purpose of NAMA. It's not very pleasant but its necessary or businesses will continue to collapse because of lack of credit. The banks are supposed to lend it all out instead of hoarding it for themselves but I don't know how good the government will be at ensuring that because they're not much good at anything

hobochris

seamus wrote: »

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?

If anyone had half a brain, it's clear that the posters were saying, "A Yes vote will improve our chances of economic recovery, thereby holding onto the jobs we already have and bringing job growth back to normal levels".

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

Tir, Ireland was an economic basket case back in 1973, a complete shambles. Proof that the DeValera view of a traditional Ireland which was enforced by the post-independence governments couldn't supply a quality of life comparable with the rest of Europe.

unfortunately we have no shortage of idiots in Ireland. To many on both sides voting for the wrong reasons.

We are now in the aftermath of Said DeValera view, which in turn hinders any progress,reform or recovery.

as for the likes of the coir posters,with the 1.84 minimum wage, they made it out as if its a bad thing, Id love to live in an Irish society where 1.84 was an acceptable hourly minimum wage that could be easily lived of. It would make us more competitive in the international market.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's exactly the purpose of NAMA. It's not very pleasant but its necessary or businesses will continue to collapse because of lack of credit. The banks are supposed to lend it all out instead of hoarding it for themselves but I don't know how good the government will be at ensuring that because they're not much good at anything

My concerns exactly.

Rb

seamus wrote: »

So when the sign said, "Yes for jobs", people actually thought that literally meant, "We have hundreds of thousands of jobs here stored up, waiting to be released, so long as you vote Yes"?
...
If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.
.

It's unfortunate that so many people thought that this is what the main parties were trying to imply by the slogans and consequently tried to push a No vote, for months, based on this misunderstanding.

Tir

seamus wrote: »

If anyone thought that a "Yes" vote would result in a job offer on Monday morning, they're an idiot.

You have just upset half of the country.

seamus

Tir wrote: »

You have just upset half of the country.

And you've just insulted half. Odd that someone so patriotic would think so little of his countrymen.

Rb

Sorry Tir, you missed Turgon's question.

turgon wrote:

Tir wrote:

"WE JUSTNEEEEDD EUROPE." Yes, but do we really need the Europe EU doing what it's currently doing?

And what exactly is that?