Brian Lenihan - We never said we'd have a strong economy and loads of jobs [YES vote]

RandomName2

What?

Sorry responding to nonsense with nonsense


Tbh, most No voters didn't vote No because of Lisbon either. It's something that works both ways. The No vote last time was hardly based on the Treaty.

Touche. Although I only agree with you in relation to the first vote (which actually was on the treaty, albeit with erroneous assumptions and information). A no vote based on principle I think, was entirely acceptable in the second vote. A tad different than a whole campaign predicated by our political parties on one big lie - that a yes vote will make the recession go away and that a no vote was damage Ireland's economy. Okay, it's not the treaty's fault that this lie was concocted around it, but a whole reason why people were voting yes was based on trust, and that the no side were all loonies who couldn't be believed. Moreover, this same lie was propagated by some of those who wrote the treaty. Fair play to the handful of yes campaigners who actually referred to the treaty (generally to refute no side allegations) but you were out-of-step with the general trend of your political movement.

Btw, didn't anyone tell you that K-9 under the gun all-in is a risky move?

truthisfree

RandomName2 wrote: »

What?

Sorry responding to nonsense with nonsense


Tbh, most No voters didn't vote No because of Lisbon either. It's something that works both ways. The No vote last time was hardly based on the Treaty.

Touche. Although I only agree with you in relation to the first vote (which actually was on the treaty, albeit with erroneous assumptions and information). A no vote based on principle I think, was entirely acceptable in the second vote. A tad different than a whole campaign predicated by our political parties on one big lie - that a yes vote will make the recession go away and that a no vote was damage Ireland's economy. Okay, it's not the treaty's fault that this lie was concocted around it, but a whole reason why people were voting yes was based on trust, and that the no side were all loonies who couldn't be believed. Moreover, this same lie was propagated by some of those who wrote the treaty. Fair play to the handful of yes campaigners who actually referred to the treaty (generally to refute no side allegations) but you were out-of-step with the general trend of your political movement.

Btw, didn't anyone tell you that K-9 under the gun all-in is a risky move?

+1

jank

truthisfree

jank wrote: »

I know, there's dozens of them! What a con job it was!

roosh

.!. wrote: »

As a fellow No voter do you really expect all expectations to come to fruition in the following days?

Seriously.

No, I also know that the "expectations" won't come to fuition full stop, because they had/have nothing to do with the Lisbon referendum.

The likes of the G20 and G8 are working on actual solutions to the problem, as will the EU be.

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

I think that the yes campaign was the most disgraceful campaign I have ever witnessed, scaremongering, bullying and downright lies from the ruling parties. It must be a very hollow victory for the yesmen, and if not, well give it about another six months!

Well, seeing as posters are so important, the No posters last time were worse.

The problem with the No posters this time was they outdid themselves with the lies, to such an extent, they lost the campaign.

Posters don't win campaigns, but they can lose it. We all know what the Yes side posters were like last time. Contrast that with the No posters last time.

The SF poster with the big Union Jack alienated many Yes voters and well, well Coir and Libertas posters will go down in legend.

What the 2 Referenda showed me is there is 2 committed campaigns when it comes to EU Referenda. There is an undecided vote of 30-40% which is up for grabs.

truthisfree

K-9 wrote: »

Well, seeing as posters are so important, the No posters last time were worse.

The problem with the No posters this time was they outdid themselves with the lies, to such an extent, they lost the campaign.

Posters don't win campaigns, but they can lose it. We all know what the Yes side posters were like last time. Contrast that with the No posters last time.

The SF poster with the big Union Jack alienated many Yes voters and well, well Coir and Libertas posters will go down in legend.

What the 2 Referenda showed me is there is 2 committed campaigns when it comes to EU Referenda. There is an undecided vote of 30-40% which is up for grabs.

I could have made up posters myself, what I am highlighting is the obvious lies and scaremongering by the elected government, yes that's right the governing party, and the other three parties are just as much to blame, a stain on democracy!

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

I could have made up posters myself, what I am highlighting is the obvious lies and scaremongering by the elected government, yes that's right the governing party, and the other three parties are just as much to blame, a stain on democracy!

But ignoring the lies and scaremongering of the No side or giving the Yes side greater weight.

Understandable as that is, over the 2 campaigns, the problem isn't the Yes or No side.

truthisfree

K-9 wrote: »

But ignoring the lies and scaremongering of the No side or giving the Yes side greater weight.

Understandable as that is, over the 2 campaigns, the problem isn't the Yes or No side.

The Government lied to the electorate. There is no way you can talk your way out of that one much as you would like to sideline it. They lied and it will not be forgotten.

vinylbomb

RandomName2 wrote: »

Because multinationals like AerLingus are rolling in money and just interested in how pro-European Ireland is. Moreover, the EU will bail out any company like AerLingus in the unlikely event of it getting into fiscal distress.

This post shows how misguided your whole knowledge of the truth is.

Not only can the EU not intervene, under EU Competition Law it is illegal for Ireland to intervene with financial aid.

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

The Government lied to the electorate. There is no way you can talk your way out of that one much as you would like to sideline it. They lied and it will not be forgotten.

Well, given the fabrication of many of the claims on this and other threads, just about anything is possible.

All hail Emperor Blair, king of the Lizard people and Supreme Commander of the European Secret Armies

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

The Government lied to the electorate. There is no way you can talk your way out of that one much as you would like to sideline it. They lied and it will not be forgotten.

Yep, no doubt you will not forget it.

Spain voted Yes and have 16% unemployment and such other nonsense.

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

the governing party, and the other three parties are just as much to blame, a stain on democracy!

It was the only game in town to be honest. The only party really in opposition was Sinn Fein, and for all your talk of the government scaremongering it ain't a patch on what the Shinners were at

truthisfree

vinylbomb wrote: »

Well, given the fabrication of many of the claims on this and other threads, just about anything is possible.

All hail Emperor Blair, king of the Lizard people and Supreme Commander of the European Secret Armies

We are not discussing anything other than the false claims made by the government, they lied, scaremongered and bullied the people into a choice and the results of this will be felt in the coming months with a back-lash from the people who changed their minds about the Treaty.

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

We are not discussing anything other than the false claims made by the government, they lied, scaremongered and bullied the people into a choice and the results of this will be felt in the coming months with a back-lash from the people who changed their minds about the Treaty.

Has the Treaty come into effect yet?

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

We are not discussing anything other than the false claims made by the government, they lied, scaremongered and bullied the people into a choice and the results of this will be felt in the coming months with a back-lash from the people who changed their minds about the Treaty.

There will be a backlash, of that you can be certain. But it will be a backlash due to 6-8 years of historic mismanagement of public finances, and nothing to do with Lisbon.

I wonder will you feel vindicated then?

truthisfree

vinylbomb wrote: »

There will be a backlash, of that you can be certain. But it will be a backlash due to 6-8 years of historic mismanagement of public finances, and nothing to do with Lisbon.

I wonder will you feel vindicated then?

6-8 years, more like 30-40 years of "mismanagement" don't kid yourself, downright corruption and cronyism. There is a widespread culture of it in Ireland and it is only when you watch a government lie to it's electorate about something as important as the treaty does it focus just how little respect it has for the people of this country.

K-9

truthisfree wrote: »

6-8 years, more like 30-40 years of "mismanagement" don't kid yourself, downright corruption and cronyism. There is a widespread culture of it in Ireland and it is only when you watch a government lie to it's electorate about something as important as the treaty does it focus just how little respect it has for the people of this country.

This sums it up well:

http://www.politics.ie/lisbon-treaty/110198-yes-jobs-over-700-jobs-gone-4.html#post2173727

truthisfree

K-9 wrote: »

This sums it up well:

http://www.politics.ie/lisbon-treaty/110198-yes-jobs-over-700-jobs-gone-4.html#post2173727

Brings me to the page but not the post, copy and paste?

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

more like 30-40 years of "mismanagement" don't kid yourself, downright corruption and cronyism......

There is a widespread culture of it in Ireland

What are you saying exactly?
Are you blaming this current government for all the typically Irish balls-ups since the Anglo-Irish Treaty?
I think you're saying there's a culture of cronyism and the government are to blame as far as I can see. Thats laughable.
If I could vote in Germany, I would vote against the government because the Germans have a culture of being not very humourous, and I like a chuckle.

truthisfree wrote: »

it is only when you watch a government lie to it's electorate about something as important as the treaty does it focus just how little respect it has for the people of this country.

I've yet to see anything even remotely resembling a fact in relation to this, the Treaty isn't even in force yet.

Like I mentioned on another thread, the lack of any cohesion in what you are saying leads me to believe that all this is coming staright out of the anarchist playbook - "I've no better solution to offer, but everything is wrong so lets f*ck sh*t up"................

I'd like to stand corrected but wont be holding my breath

truthisfree

vinylbomb wrote: »

What are you saying exactly?
Are you blaming this current government for all the typically Irish balls-ups since the Anglo-Irish Treaty?
You're saying there's a culture of cronyism and the government are to blame as far as I can see. Thats laughable.
If I could vote in Germany, I would vote against the government because the Germans have a culture of being not very humourous, and I like a chuckle.

I've yet to see anything even remotely resembling a fact in relation to this, the Treaty isn't even in force yet.

Like I mentioned on another thread, the lack of any cohesion in what you are saying leads me to believe that all this is coming staright out of the anarchist playbook - "I've no better solution to offer, but everything is wrong so lets f*ck sh*t up"................

I'd like to stand corrected but wont be holding my breath

There is no point going away from the OP, The point I am making and lots of other posters have, and will make is that the government lied about the reasons for voting yes to the Lisbon treaty when it said vote yes for jobs and economic recovery. This was and is a wrong way to govern a people.

How anyone can accept this type of politic and not be repulsed is indicative of a cultural acceptance of this type of dis-respectful governance from a government that is corrupt. Does it not bother you that Michael O'Leary and Nigel Farage both compared Ireland to Zimbabwe?

It does bother me that we are governed by gombeen men only interested in their own personal gain, look at our CC John O'Donaghue, and before Him Bertie "I won it on the horses"Aherne, and before that Ray Burke, and on and on the list goes.

This has gone way too far and the bullying and lies told us by the government was just one more in a long and disgraceful litany of lies told us, the people they work for! Anyone who supports them is just as guilty of it as they are themselves.

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

Him Bertie "I won it on the horses"Aherne, and before that Ray Burke, and on and on the list goes.

Anyone who supports them is just as guilty of it as they are themselves.

I'm still confused. You citing examples going back into the distant past (all FF mind you), and saying that this government should pay for endemic cronyism in the Irish system.
Surely this will continue on to the next government as they are all part of the current political establishment, and you are tarring them all.

As previously noted it appears to me you are more anti-establishment than of any political persuasion.

truthisfree wrote: »

There is no point going away from the OP, The point I am making and lots of other posters have, and will make is that the government lied about the reasons for voting yes to the Lisbon treaty when it said vote yes for jobs and economic recovery. This was and is a wrong way to govern a people.

And yet again, please provide some FACTUAL basis for this claim, given that the treaty is NOT YET ENACTED.

Jesus wept.

truthisfree

vinylbomb wrote: »

I'm still confused. You citing examples going back into the distant past (all FF mind you), and saying that this government should pay for endemic cronyism in the Irish system.
Surely this will continue on to the next government as they are all part of the current political establishment, and you are tarring them all.

As previously noted it appears to me you are more anti-establishment than of any political persuasion.

And yet again, please provide some FACTUAL basis for this claim, given that the treaty is NOT YET ENACTED.

Jesus wept.

2004 is the distant past?

FG could never hold on to power long enough to get a decent slice of the pie :rolleyes: and do not look like they ever will. either way they are spineless as an opposition, SF, LAB and TGP to take out JOD.

Oh! the Treaty is not "Enacted" as if that will make the slightest difference!

hopalong85

Rb wrote: »

Well, at least you No voters didn't fall for it, eh?

So smart, what with your well argued, rational points of view and reasons for voting against the document.

If only the rest of the country were the same we could get back to the merry old days of living off the land, beating our wives who can't legally leave the marriage and hell, why not give up contraception while we're at it so we overbreed and overpopulate the country again. Goo sovereignity.

Says the guy who grinded small stakes nlh online for a "living" at some stage in his past. Possibly you still do, I'm not sure nor do I care. Without paying taxes as that's tax free obv. Unless you've changed greatly since you used to frequent the poker forum please go away.

As for what you said above? LOL. No=domestic abuse now does it? No=lack of contraception? Absolutely hilarious tbh. For someone who tries to come across as well informed on this treaty and life in general, you fail miserably to be honest.

hopalong85

Argh!!! No voters all want to go back to "living off the land". Because that's surely what a no vote would have led to. Begorrah!!

Scofflaw

hopalong85 wrote: »

Says the guy who grinded small stakes nlh online for a "living" at some stage in his past. Possibly you still do, I'm not sure nor do I care. Without paying taxes as that's tax free obv. Unless you've changed greatly since you used to frequent the poker forum please go away.

As for what you said above? LOL. No=domestic abuse now does it? No=lack of contraception? Absolutely hilarious tbh. For someone who tries to come across as well informed on this treaty and life in general, you fail miserably to be honest.

For those who might be a little hazy what an ad hominem argument looks like, the first paragraph is a classic example of one.

The second paragraph is simply insulting another poster, of course.

moderately,
Scofflaw

vinylbomb

truthisfree wrote: »

2004 is the distant past?

What are you on about?
Ray Burke pleaded guilty to corruption in 2004. He was not part of the current government.
What does this have to do with the current government "lying to the electorate"

truthisfree wrote: »

, SF, LAB and TGP to take out JOD.

Really?
Even with every independent on their side this lot wouldn't have enough for a coalition after the next election.

truthisfree wrote: »

Oh! the Treaty is not "Enacted" as if that will make the slightest difference!

I'm afraid it is.

RandomName2

vinylbomb wrote: »

And yet again, please provide some FACTUAL basis for this claim, given that the treaty is NOT YET ENACTED.

Jesus wept.

I am only going to say this once.

You have a point, but you are entirely missing the crux of the matter, which is understandable because

THE YES CAMPAIGN DID NOT RUN THIS REFERENDUM IN RELATION TO THE TREATY

Instead: the yes political campaign ran the campagin on the basis of Ireland's position in Europe and appearance to multinational companies.

Nothing to do with the treaty.
Nothing to do with the treaty.
Nothing to do with the treaty.
- Hope that's cleared that up.

So enactment of the treaty has nothing to do with the yes political campaign.

Because the campaign had nothing to do with the treaty.

Ratification of the treaty -BY ITSELF- is supposed to bring the benefits promised in the referendum by FF, FG, Labour, IBEC, Intel, etc
And that is to do with Ireland's APPEARANCE
I.e. the European commission will LIKE Ireland
That multinationals will think that Ireland LIKES Europe
That Ireland will look GRATEFUL to the EU.

And okay - the public shouldn't have been duped by this. But, as I already predicted, when you are broke you will grasp at any mirage - particularly if you trust your politicians who are almost without exception promoting this garbage.

Jesus wept!

PrestonDaly

when will the people ever learn?

P. Breathnach

RandomName2 wrote: »

I am only going to say this once...

I don't buy the slant of what you said, but it is a great relief that you have promised not to say it again.