Reactions to the Vote

Lame Lantern

Opinion pieces (the authors of which you did not name) from four newspapers on the continent are not an accurate (or at all legitimate) representation of the "European" view of Ireland in much the same way that anyone in Belgium reading a crazed John Waters attack on shoelaces should not assume Ireland is hostile to traditional footwear.

truthisfree

Lame Lantern wrote: »

Opinion pieces (the authors of which you did not name) from four newspapers on the continent are not an accurate (or at all legitimate) representation of the "European" view of Ireland in much the same way that anyone in Belgium reading a crazed John Waters attack on shoelaces should not assume Ireland is hostile to traditional footwear.

Speigel is one of the most respected newspapers in the world with an international circulation, hardly something to be taken as not being a "legitimate" source of European opinion?

seamus

It would look exactly the same to an observer looking in if you cherry-picked appropriate articles from Irish-based newspapers which supported the view.

The opening article shows the writer's biase in this regard:

The European Union has taken another step toward the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty after the Irish backed it in a second referendum on Friday. While most German commentators welcome the decisive "yes" vote, some also voice regrets that a campaign of fear was necessary to produce the desired result.

Interesting that a far-right German magazine admits that "most" German commentators are positive and then proceeds to only pick choice nagative quotes from far-left and fringe newpapers to try and get its own point across.

If you look back at its previous articles on Lisbon, you'll see that rather than actually realising the incorrectness of the various claims made, it subtley repeats them and then leaves them unanswered. Nice objective journalism there.

Any chance of a list of articles from popular national newspapers in Europe?

Scofflaw

truthisfree wrote: »

Interesting to see what our European neighbours had to say about the referendum

Irish Lisbon Vote Is 'A Cry for Help'

"There are still major differences between the big and small countries, and between the new and old members -- and it will take years, if not decades, before the new European Union is as close-knit as the old, smaller one."
Süddeutsche Zeitung

"The strong 'yes' vote may have been heartening, but it was also clouded by the fact that it was the result of a fear campaign. The Irish were persuaded by their politicians that a 'no' to the treaty could result in being kicked out of the EU -- something that naturally is not true. The EU would still function without Lisbon. It would just have been less efficient and the expansion process would have come to a halt."
Financial Times Deutschland

"The new treaty will never get over the blemish of how it came about. The people who said 'no' the first time, were either not asked a second time or were blackmailed with the threat of being marginalized in economically tough times."
Die Tageszeitung

Nowadays, worries about tax increases (in Ireland) are a joke in a situation where government debt is a tenth of the gross national product, unemployment will soon rise to 20 percent and the IT and financial services sectors that made the boom possible are either migrating or threatened with collapse."
Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

A cry for help, well I guess that was what it must have seemed like to countries outside of here, was desperate enough anyway. I wonder how the Yes voters feel about seeing things like this written about the referendum?

Let's add in some more bits from the same article:

The center-left Süddeutsche Zeitung writes:

"The Irish 'yes' to the Lisbon Treaty … prevents the European Union from collapse and from falling into political irrelevance. And it provides the Europeans with the opportunity to have a lasting influence in the world. … The national governments must now show if they have the courage and skill to position Europe in the global power game."

The Financial Times Deutschland writes:

"The fact that an overwhelming majority of Irish voters supported the Lisbon Treaty has a lot to do with the financial crisis. Ireland has been harder hit than any other country in the EU. And belonging to an EU that was stabilizing and showed solidarity seemed much more attractive now than when the first referendum was held."

We probably ought to note that Der Spiegel has been relatively hostile to Lisbon throughout.

cordially,
Scofflaw

truthisfree

seamus wrote: »

It would look exactly the same to an observer looking in if you cherry-picked appropriate articles from Irish-based newspapers which supported the view.

The opening article shows the writer's biase in this regard:
Interesting that a far-right German magazine admits that "most" German commentators are positive and then proceeds to only pick choice nagative quotes from far-left and fringe newpapers to try and get its own point across.

If you look back at its previous articles on Lisbon, you'll see that rather than actually realising the incorrectness of the various claims made, it subtley repeats them and then leaves them unanswered. Nice objective journalism there.

Any chance of a list of articles from popular national newspapers in Europe?

The "Financial Times" is a fringe newspaper???

Scofflaw

Also, on another note, there's a thread - for exactly this topic - about 5 threads down.

moderately,
Scofflaw

seamus

truthisfree wrote: »

The "Financial Times" is a fringe newspaper???

In Germany it is. Circulation of just over 100,000 in a country of 80 million. By comparison, your posts are more popular than that newspaper.

Edit: Financial Times Deutschland has no affiliation with the British paper of the same name.

truthisfree

seamus wrote: »

In Germany it is. Circulation of just over 100,000 in a country of 80 million. By comparison, your posts are more popular than that newspaper.

Spiegel Online is the most popular online resource for news in Germany and has a print circulation of ober a million copies!

Do you not think that Ireland looks like it is picking up the begging bowl again as we face into the real recession?

Scofflaw

truthisfree wrote: »

Spiegel Online is the most popular online resource for news in Germany and has a print circulation of ober a million copies!

A million copies in the whole of Europe - to put that in context, that's about 6 times the circulation of the Irish Independent (in a market-place 125 times the size).

truthisfree wrote: »

Do you not think that Ireland looks like it is picking up the begging bowl again as we face into the real recession?

Are you surprised that certain sections of the German press might feel that way? There are presumably a number of Germans who feel about Ireland as a number of people in Ireland feel about overseas aid - "welfare we can't afford", "charity begins at home", and so on.

I wish I were surprised that No proponents could see the irony in highlighting this attitude in order to try to make out that people across Europe are supportive of a No position. The Germans don't necessarily like the fact that a country that - perhaps more than any other - has benefited from EU money (German money), and which has introduced instabilities to their financial system by its own recklessness, also votes on major treaties affecting them on the basis, apparently, of which side has the bigger bogeymen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

truthisfree

Scofflaw wrote: »

A million copies in the whole of Europe - to put that in context, that's about 6 times the circulation of the Irish Independent (in a market-place 125 times the size).



Are you surprised that certain sections of the German press might feel that way? There are presumably a number of Germans who feel about Ireland as a number of people in Ireland feel about overseas aid - "welfare we can't afford", "charity begins at home", and so on.

I wish I were surprised that No proponents could see the irony in highlighting this attitude in order to try to make out that people across Europe are supportive of a No position. The Germans don't necessarily like the fact that a country that - perhaps more than any other - has benefited from EU money (German money), and which has introduced instabilities to their financial system by its own recklessness, also votes on major treaties affecting them on the basis, apparently, of which side has the bigger bogeymen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I am not at all surprised that they would feel this way and I am sure that France and the Uk are not far behind. I am not so sure that there will be much money coming from the EU, at least not as much as we will be paying into it. There are countries that need it far more than we do (right now).
I feel that a whole lot of people who wrongly voted for this treaty on the basis that the EU would bail us out are going to be disappointed. When they discover this and the recession deepens, and deepen it will, then they will feel cheated and frustrated by the implied "promises" of economic recovery and jobs.

These people are not the left wing loony type, they are staunch middle class and they will take to the streets in hundreds of thousands as they did in the late 70's and 80's.

I think the continual revelations about corruption, outrageous expense accounts, and finally the financial meltdown with the scare tactics of the referendum, and not to forget we have the conclusive Mahon tribunal report to be published yet, as well as more abuse revelations about the Church. All adds up to very difficult and politically unstable time in the 12 months ahead.

Scofflaw

truthisfree wrote: »

I am not at all surprised that they would feel this way and I am sure that France and the Uk are not far behind. I am not so sure that there will be much money coming from the EU, at least not as much as we will be paying into it. There are countries that need it far more than we do (right now).
I feel that a whole lot of people who wrongly voted for this treaty on the basis that the EU would bail us out are going to be disappointed. When they discover this and the recession deepens, and deepen it will, then they will feel cheated and frustrated by the implied "promises" of economic recovery and jobs.

These people are not the left wing loony type, they are staunch middle class and they will take to the streets in hundreds of thousands as they did in the late 70's and 80's.

I think the continual revelations about corruption, outrageous expense accounts, and finally the financial meltdown with the scare tactics of the referendum, and not to forget we have the conclusive Mahon tribunal report to be published yet, as well as more abuse revelations about the Church. All adds up to very difficult and politically unstable time in the 12 months ahead.

Indeed it does - but at least one area of instability has been cleared up.

cordially,
Scofflaw

King of Kings

prinz wrote: »

The irony. When you come out of the 1930's, they might come out of 1990.

LOL
I must say I liked your retort.

FG will always be the blueshirts to me.