The Greens - will they bolt?

turgon

To be fair, I dont think the Greens are power greedy in the same way as FF. I just think they believe the only way they will make a change is by being in government.

Biggins

turgon wrote: »

To be fair, I dont think the Greens are power greedy in the same way as FF. I just think they believe the only way they will make a change is by being in government.

Its a close call.

Will they stick in government and chase a last few policies and get still get an ultimate black name that will haunt them for years to come...

or

No longer go along with FF - Get a slightly re-shined name, along with a small greater chance of actually getting some of their people elected again.

Time will tell...


I know which option I would chose, now will others have the same courage in the party???

Darragh29

turgon wrote: »

To be fair, I dont think the Greens are power greedy in the same way as FF. I just think they believe the only way they will make a change is by being in government.

I agree with them, the place for making change is in government, I think we need Green policies in government, that's why I gave Paul Gogarty a first preference vote in the last election, but I certainly didn't vote for this sh*t.

I didn't vote for our hard earned money being literally p*ssed all over the place, millions being thrown at the likes of Rody Molloy because he muttered something about legal action after catastrophically failing to do his job, TD's billing the taxpayer to the tune of hundreds of thousands of Euro for the love of horseracing.

I didn't vote for half a million people on the dole by December and no sign of a plan to get these people back to work. I didn't vote for a nation that lacks political leadership, encouragement and inspiration so much, that the people are literally terrified out of their wits.

I didn't vote for any of this sh*t Paul Gogarty, so you sort it out this Saturday...

Macha

Noreen1 wrote: »

The reality of the situation is, no-one can pursue a "Green" policy, unless they have the finances to pay for it.

This is entirely incorrect. What most people don't seem to appreciate is that "Green" policies are about removing inefficiencies. Many costs in this country are externalised at the moment, either to the taxpayer or society in general. Many green policies internalise these costs, through principles such as 'polluter pays' and in doing so achieves two goals:
1. Creates an incentive for the 'polluter' to be more efficient/less polluting
2. Creates a source of income that is dependable, not cyclical like the ones FF have depended on over the last 15 years.

There is also the issue of the environmental goods and services market that many seem a little too eager to dismiss. In fact the market was valued at around €2.8bn in 2007, not including the construction industry (which is a very sizeable chunk of the market) and with significant potential for growth both through FDI and indigenous companies.

A previous poster saw fit to mock the potential savings of the €6bn we spend on imported fuel every year (not to mention the damage to the economy through being so dependent on an non-indigenous source of energy that is vulnerable to extreme fluctuations in market price). This sort of viewpoint is incredibly short-sighted because not only can we reduce our dependency on imported fuel and thus steady fuel prices and improve fuel security, we can also foster an Irish market in energy production, complete with many direct and indirect employment, with the strong possibility of also becoming a net exporter of energy (At one point at the end of July, Irish wind counted for 39% of all electricity required in Ireland, an incident that attracted the attention of the international media).

Personally, I think leaving government is the easy way out for the Greens. They cause a collapse in the government with a sneaky eye on picking up a few brownie points for the general election, when the reality is there are very few economic options open to any formation of government in Ireland today. And I would rather see Fianna Fail clean up their mess, rather than leaving it the opposition, who in turn are returned to opposition as quickly as possible for taking the hard, unpopular decisions necessary.

And of course, I want "Green" policies implemented, even if it means that the Greens suffer at the next General Election. Because I believe that investment in the Green Economy is what's going to save this country from the mess that FF got it into.

That, in fact, is the hard way out for the Greens. But it is one that I support.

DublinWriter

taconnol wrote: »

Personally, I think leaving government is the easy way out for the Greens.

I don't think so.

If they leave now, the electorate will see that they've grown a pair and reward them accordingly.

Given FF's impending decimation, the Greens as a minority government party would be wiped out completely should they decide to stick it out.

Gormley is under fierce grass-roots pressure right now.

They'll be out by next Monday.

Macha

DublinWriter wrote: »

If they leave now, the electorate will see that they've grown a pair and reward them accordingly.

Given FF's impending decimation, the Greens as a minority government party would be wiped out completely should they decide to stick it out.

And you think the Greens are unware of this? In my opinion the fact that they want to stay shows how important they feel their policies are to the future of this country.

Pulling out of government is the cowardly thing to do. I fail to see how it is the brave thing to do as it would simply be done to improve their chances of getting into power with the new government.

Biggins

Maybe the hints (in the RTE news + mentioned by FG James Reilly on monday) that Trevor Sargent might be in the running for the soon to be vacant CC position, it might be enough to be used as to persuade the other ground-level support, to tow the line and vote to stay in.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Saturday meeting - meanwhile I'd say the phones are hopping between now and then between them all.
The nation is watching and waiting Greens.

Crunch time - and what every ye decide - it WILL be remembered for a long time to come!

DublinWriter

taconnol wrote: »

And you think the Greens are unware of this? In my opinion the fact that they want to stay shows how important they feel their policies are to the future of this country.

Pulling out of government is the cowardly thing to do. I fail to see how it is the brave thing to do as it would simply be done to improve their chances of getting into power with the new government.

They are playing real-politic with the big-boys now.

Welcome to Irish politics.

BTW we're still waiting on some official government direction on what to do with all those nasty-CFL lightbulbs that will eventually contaminate the water table with mercury.

Stephen

Yep, time for the greens to show they've got some balls and pull the plug. Say what you want about having a mandate until 2012, the dogs on the street know that the public wants rid of this government, and the greens are the only ones with the power to do that.

I would echo what was in Darragh29's letter: Prop up this shambles of a government any longer and the greens will never, ever get a preference from me again. Collapse the government and force an election and they will probably be saved from going the way of the PD's.

murfie

I'm disheartened after watching Pat Kenny's show Frontline on the rte website. Majority of the green in the audience wanted to stay in power. They are propping up a failed FF party at this stage and I do not believe they are listening to the people on the streets that are calling for them to leave government.

Darragh29

taconnol wrote: »

This is entirely incorrect. What most people don't seem to appreciate is that "Green" policies are about removing inefficiencies. Many costs in this country are externalised at the moment, either to the taxpayer or society in general. Many green policies internalise these costs, through principles such as 'polluter pays' and in doing so achieves two goals:
1. Creates an incentive for the 'polluter' to be more efficient/less polluting
2. Creates a source of income that is dependable, not cyclical like the ones FF have depended on over the last 15 years.

There is also the issue of the environmental goods and services market that many seem a little too eager to dismiss. In fact the market was valued at around €2.8bn in 2007, not including the construction industry (which is a very sizeable chunk of the market) and with significant potential for growth both through FDI and indigenous companies.

A previous poster saw fit to mock the potential savings of the €6bn we spend on imported fuel every year (not to mention the damage to the economy through being so dependent on an non-indigenous source of energy that is vulnerable to extreme fluctuations in market price). This sort of viewpoint is incredibly short-sighted because not only can we reduce our dependency on imported fuel and thus steady fuel prices and improve fuel security, we can also foster an Irish market in energy production, complete with many direct and indirect employment, with the strong possibility of also becoming a net exporter of energy (At one point at the end of July, Irish wind counted for 39% of all electricity required in Ireland, an incident that attracted the attention of the international media).

Personally, I think leaving government is the easy way out for the Greens. They cause a collapse in the government with a sneaky eye on picking up a few brownie points for the general election, when the reality is there are very few economic options open to any formation of government in Ireland today. And I would rather see Fianna Fail clean up their mess, rather than leaving it the opposition, who in turn are returned to opposition as quickly as possible for taking the hard, unpopular decisions necessary.

And of course, I want "Green" policies implemented, even if it means that the Greens suffer at the next General Election. Because I believe that investment in the Green Economy is what's going to save this country from the mess that FF got it into.

That, in fact, is the hard way out for the Greens. But it is one that I support.

Ya know its hard to argue with any of this... Green policies to me are extremely important, I didn't just pick this up in the last few years, when I did a humanities course for the Inter Cert many years ago, this stuff was being taught back then, how we were completely dependant on finite fossil fuels and energy resources, how we were raping the earth of its natural resources.

But I go back to my last post, I didn't give Paul Gogarty a first preference vote, to see the absolute spectacle I'm seeing at the moment.

I didn't vote for any of this sh*t. Every country needs a credible leadership team, with a man or woman at the top who people trust to get it right and who people will go the extra mile for. I wouldn't get out of bed for the arseh*le who is running this government, he knows nothing about leadership, about how to inspire people, he wasn't elected to lead the country by the people of this country, he was the annointed leader in waiting of another arseh*le that had no small part in driving this country at warp speed into the sh*thole it is now in.

What we need is a credible leader. I'm afraid this is what I feel we need now, more importantly than green policies, so that we can start creating jobs for ourselves and start climbing the hill again.

At the moment, we are in a state of paralysis and it's all down to the lack of leadership we have. Cowen, Coughlan, Lenihan, Cullen, Roche, Dempsey, the whole lot of them have to go I think...

Tom1991

Its 6 of one or half a dozen of the other type of decision.BUT if they do bolt itl be a great bit to add to reeling in the years for 2009

thebman

I don't believe in the world is fooked and its all mans fault for burning his turf and oil philosophy.

I think its probably naturally occuring and our influence is mocked by the other chaotic things occuring in the system for how miniscule it is.

I do still support the green economy idea because I like clean air and efficiency with energy just makes sense and getting away from oil solves other problems.

If we can have economic recovery and clean air and renewable technologies then why the hell not push the green economy?

Darragh29

The Green's ought to look at this dilema in another way also... There is a budget from hell landing here in December, we can expect more revelations on the expenses front to come down the wire between now and budget day, we all know John O' Donoghue is only the molecule of snow at the tip of the iceberg. We will have to get to the tip of the iceberg on the matter of expenses and further examples of wanton wastage of taxpayers money, and then there is the iceberg that has been the wholesale abuse of the expenses system itself.

As far as I can see right now, people are not going to listen to much more of this, say what you want about us not being rebellious like the French and all the rest of it but people are very rapidly running out of patience with what is going on here.

So the Green's should think about what their chances of being elected are, if the government falls on the budget or between now and then on another scandal.

I personally don't believe the Green's have the courage to pull the plug, I reckon I'll be chasing Paul Gogarty out of my front garden come the next election. I don't think that the next election will be because the government will fall this Saturday, I do hope I'm proven wrong though...

EDIT: Paddy Power doesn't seem to think that they will either...

Sonderval

I don't believe in the world is fooked and its all mans fault for burning his turf and oil philosophy.

I think its probably naturally occuring and our influence is mocked by the other chaotic things occuring in the system for how miniscule it is.

Thats great, but your going against the scientific evidence - so unless your a climate scientist I'd leave your 'I think' statements at the door and rely on the facts of the matter.

What kind of nonsense is this whole NAMA vote? 1/3 must agree, and thats it? What the hell kind of democratic system is that?

Morrisseeee

I'm sure I heard on the radio yesterday that if the Greens stay in power until Xmas that they will be entitled to a ministerial pension (or something) !
so...............I'm heading off to PP with my weeks wages and months mortgage payment and putting a bet on that they will stay in power

thebman

Sonderval wrote: »

Thats great, but your going against the scientific evidence - so unless your a climate scientist I'd leave your 'I think' statements at the door and rely on the facts of the matter.

What kind of nonsense is this whole NAMA vote? 1/3 must agree, and thats it? What the hell kind of democratic system is that?

There isn't proof that man is the cause, just that it is occurring.

Everything else is basically having faith that we are the cause of climate change. Too much faith for me to accept that it is the case TBH.

I'll listen to them when they have the proof but until then there are as many invested interests in green technology arena as there are in oil or any other group.

As a member of FF, gotta say if they do bolt good luck to them. They deserve better than to get kicked because of the utter shambles that is FF at present. And do respect people like Ryan.

God speed little fellahs...

Tableman

Well, the Greens have to decide if they think this government can last the full term. If they think they can, then there is no reason for them to pull out. If they dont think it can last, then now is probably the time to go before more **** comes out and more cutbacks are proposed.

Biggins

Tableman wrote: »

Well, the Greens have to decide if they think this government can last the full term. If they think they can, then there is no reason for them to pull out. If they dont think it can last, then now is probably the time to go before more **** comes out and more cutbacks are proposed.

Good point.

Macha

thebman wrote: »

There isn't proof that man is the cause, just that it is occurring.

And I'm going to assume you have peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back up your claim?

thebman wrote: »

I'll listen to them when they have the proof but until then there are as many invested interests in green technology arena as there are in oil or any other group.

As much as I would like people to stop polluting the atmosphere just because deep down they are decent people, I acknowledge the reality that environmental protection must turn a profit or it just isn't going to happen.

Sometimes I feel that green policies just can't win. Some say they're not economical and so will never work while at the same time others dismiss the evidence of climate change because surely if someone is making a profit it's all just an enormous scam. And then they'll never work because people won't commit voluntarily but the putting in place of financial incentives (the ones that have been proven to be the only ones that are really effective) elicits shouts of "stealth tax!"

mike65

Was anyone listening to Rory Houlihan a green party member on The Last Word? He wasn't an elected rep at any level but leads a group within the party. The future of the government appears to lie with fur farms being made illegal. If it happens (or rather a commitment is made) then this lobby group will vote yes to stay, if not they vote to pull the plug.

Liam Byrne

Would never have thought I'd actually pray that fur farms would stay in existence, but here's hoping!

Sonderval

Would never have thought I'd actually pray that fur farms would stay in existence, but here's hoping!

Ditto. Also, what a crappy issue to sign up on

There isn't proof that man is the cause, just that it is occurring.

Nonsense, and as reference, I direct you to the IPCC technical documents on the subject.

NASA has a lovely intro to the subject too.

ShooterSF

I'd love to see the plug pulled but I can't see it happening. I'd email them but promising a future vote would be a lie. I'm too liberal to vote green.

BroomBurner

Well, if John O'Donoghue can resign but stay there until next Tuesday, then why can't the Greens say that they'll pull out of government, but next Wednesday, on the assurance that O'D will be gone first.

Why is it only FF that can play games?

Villain

BroomBurner wrote: »

Well, if John O'Donoghue can resign but stay there until next Tuesday, then why can't the Greens say that they'll pull out of government, but next Wednesday, on the assurance that O'D will be gone first.

Why is it only FF that can play games?

Labour have left the No Confidence Motion in place incase that happens

thebman

taconnol wrote: »

And I'm going to assume you have peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back up your claim?

I don't need to prove its not related, you need to prove it is related. This isn't a faith issue. You can't make a claim and say prove I'm wrong. Prove your right. Not sufficient evidence.

As much as I would like people to stop polluting the atmosphere just because deep down they are decent people, I acknowledge the reality that environmental protection must turn a profit or it just isn't going to happen.

Sometimes I feel that green policies just can't win. Some say they're not economical and so will never work while at the same time others dismiss the evidence of climate change because surely if someone is making a profit it's all just an enormous scam. And then they'll never work because people won't commit voluntarily but the putting in place of financial incentives (the ones that have been proven to be the only ones that are really effective) elicits shouts of "stealth tax!"

Pfft, I'm not saying we shoudln't go green, I'm saying we should for cleaner air and general health benefits from not pumping out masses of carbon monoxide from our cars etc...

I don't have a problem with them making money, I just want research not funded by people with invested interests in seeing certain results, same as the oil backed research. We need independent research that shows this is the case.

LK_Dave

I hope the greens do go and I hope I can get a chance of nailing a nail in their coffin. From my perspective they do not really care about the Irish environment and rural life. Here in West limerick the farmers were made build/install huge cattle wintering facilities costing huge sums of money with the promises of grants. I have seen the paperwork these guys had to submit and have rarely seen such bureaucracy and then the grants were cancelled/postponed leaving these guys with huge loans to service. These guys are now hitting the wall and have no help from this government with many of these facilities empty this winter. Thanks very much Trevor Sergeant, Minister for Food. Load the farmers...our food producers with debt.....cancel the grants, cancel REPS (Rural Environment Protection Scheme). Dominate the farm forestry sector by cutting the grants for planting land and proving that any contract with the State is worthless by tearing up the planting contract. Thank you so much Trevor, I hope you enjoy the “organic” Brazilian beef that you’ll be eating at tomorrow’s ransom party. The Greens rural plan is to remove....for remove read ethnically cleanse....the people from the land and turn it into a weekend getaway for affluent Urbanites.

seamus

Kind of hoping they stay in government tbh.

If this government collapses, FF will be destroyed in the next GE - I'd say 35% of the vote at most. A coalition government, probably FG/Lab will preside over the next 3 years of budget cuts, tax hikes, public sector strikes and political scandal, and by the time the next GE comes around, although the economy will be starting to climb, the coalition government will have looked like a bunch of monkeys who screwed us all over, then FF will sweep the board and be incumbent again for another 15 years.

On the other hand, if the current government stays in place until 2012, FF's vote will collapse probably to something more like 10 or 15%, and we'll finally be rid of them.

The economy will recover, regardless of who's in government. All they're really fighting for is the chance to take credit for it. Irish politics is all about timing - i.e. happening to be in Government when something good happens.