Why Did Packie Bonner Never Play For An English Club?

Green Hornet

As I'm sure a few of us remember, Packie was an outstanding goalie for Celtic and Ireland. I realise that Scottish football was at a higher level than it is at present but still wonder why Bonner never moved to the English Div 1 at that time?

Is it that he had offers and was happy to stay in Scotland or am I remembering hos exploits with rose tinted glasses?

aidan24326

He was a decent keeper, hardly 'outstanding' though. Hi did start off in England, he was in the youths at Leicester for a bit. I guess he settled in Scotland, held his place at Celtic, was on decent money, winning trophies etc, and never felt the need to leave. Probably no more to it than that. I'm sure he could have played in England if he really wanted to.

killwill

I would imagine loyalty had a lot to play in it. I remember meeting him in the Showgrounds about 6 or 7 years ago. Sligo were playing Harps. Top bloke.

Fratton Fred

staying with one club most of your career was not as unusual then than it is now, especially if that club gets you medals and european football (Well, one or two games a season anyway).

Goalkeepers don't tend to move around as much either.

Big Chief

he was loved at the hoops, he was a loyal player and in that day and age football was played for the "shirt" rather than the $$$....

i will always have a special amount of respect for these type of players, henrik larsson being another prime example of this in a green and white shirt.

flahavaj

Because hes from Donegal.

Nalz

Des told me its because he just wanted to play for a top Irish club as long as he could

The Rooster

killwill wrote: »

I would imagine loyalty had a lot to play in it. I remember meeting him in the Showgrounds about 6 or 7 years ago. Sligo were playing Harps. Top bloke.

Not many people I know who met him that call him that. Plenty that call him the opposite!

premierstone

^^ We'll personally I've met him a few times on trips over to Glasgow and have always found him to be very approachable, friendly and an absolute gentleman.

Green Hornet

I remember him in Euro '88 and he was absolutely outstanding! If I remember correctly he also required painkilling injections during the tournament.

I know the old backpass rule was a bit of a killer for him when it came in as he was one of the old guard at the time and struggled to adapt.

killwill

The Rooster wrote: »

Not many people I know who met him that call him that. Plenty that call him the opposite!

Well he was sitting behind me that evening, shoke my hand and chatted for a few minutes. I was after travelling from Clare for that game and wished me a safe journy home. That is why I found him a gent. Maybe I caught him on a good day!

Eirebear

premierstone wrote: »

^^ We'll personally I've met him a few times on trips over to Glasgow and have always found him to be very approachable, friendly and an absolute gentleman.

Couldnt agree more dude, my folks live about 5 minutes away from his home in Donegal and he has never been anything less than a gentleman in my experiences with him.

As for the original question, the typically arrogant viewpoint of an english football fan eh?
He loved the club he played for, and despite not having massive success with them he showed a loyalty that isnt common nowadays.

podge018

Heard an interview with him last year and he was saying he was a bit naive and he should have moved played in England before the end of his career.

Chardee MacDennis

Eirebear wrote: »

Couldnt agree more dude, my folks live about 5 minutes away from his home in Donegal and he has never been anything less than a gentleman in my experiences with him.

i met him at an irish training session and he was seemed a sound bloke...

Green Hornet

Eirebear wrote: »

As for the original question, the typically arrogant viewpoint of an english football fan eh?
He loved the club he played for, and despite not having massive success with them he showed a loyalty that isnt common nowadays.

Thats a bit strong isn't it? It was just a question.

The best players want to play in the best leagues surely? I thought he was capable of doing that at the time and was just wondering if he was or wasn't as good as I thought.

I could have asked the question in relation to any Italian, German or Spanish club either.

I agree with you in relation to the club loyalty. If it was down to loyalty more power to him.

Eirebear

Green Hornet wrote: »

Thats a bit strong isn't it? It was just a question.

The best players want to play in the best leagues surely? I thought he was capable of doing that at the time and was just wondering if he was or wasn't as good as I thought.

Maybe a little, i apologise.

You need to remember however that at the time when Bonner was at the top of his game, english clubs were banned from european competittion for 5 years.
So in a sense he maybe was testing himself against "better" opposition by playing in europe.
(even if it was only for one or two games Fred...it was more than you lot were allowed! )

Quint

Maybe no english clubs made him a decent offer

_blank_

The English league was pretty far from being "one of the best leagues in the world" in Bonner's heyday tbh.

A Dub in Glasgo

Thats because the games were shown on BBC

Eirebear

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Thats because the games were shown on BBC

At least the BBC managed to put together a decent ****ing highlights package for English football though! :mad:

ArmaniJeanss

The '3 foreigners rule' would also have been a bit of a negative from a top English clubs point of view in the early 90s.
It would have been a bit silly to sign a keeper if he was 'wasting' one of the three foreigner places in European competition.
Even Peter Schmeichel was a victim of this, quite often 'dropped' so that 3 outfield foreigners could play.

Green Hornet

Some good points here actually. I'd forgotten all about the foreigners rule and the fact that English clubs were banned from Europe.

Fr Tod Umptious

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The '3 foreigners rule' would also have been a bit of a negative from a top English clubs point of view in the early 90s.
It would have been a bit silly to sign a keeper if he was 'wasting' one of the three foreigner places in European competition.
Even Peter Schmeichel was a victim of this, quite often 'dropped' so that 3 outfield foreigners could play.

I thought that rule had an exception for players who had spent a certain number of years playing in the UK, Bonner may have fitted that criteria

ArmaniJeanss

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I thought that rule had an exception for players who had spent a certain number of years playing in the UK, Bonner may have fitted that criteria

I think such an exception was there alright (I think it was the 3+2 rule, 3 foreigners + 2 naturalized foreigners). But the 'naturalized' exception was only for players who'd played in that particular country. And Scotland and England are different countries under FIFA rules so I think Bonners time in Scotland would have counted for squat if he moved to England.

Obviously then Bosman came along and blew FIFA 'rules' out of the water.

Lord Trollington

The Rooster wrote: »

Not many people I know who met him that call him that. Plenty that call him the opposite!

So people call him a bottom girl then?

Nalz

The Rooster wrote: »

Not many people I know who met him that call him that. Plenty that call him the opposite!

Yep we all have our opinions on the guy. I personally got pushed down three steps of the Carlow cinema stairs when I was 13 ( I think). Ireland squad was training in Kilkee Castle in Kildare, and went to Carlow cinema for a night out. Got Keith O Neill, Phil Babbs and a few others sigs. Packie was having none of it, pushed through a few people then put his hand out knocking me back a few steps.

_blank_

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Obviously then Bosman came along and blew FIFA 'rules' out of the water.

The Bosman ruling had zilch to do with the foreigners rule.

In fact, it is still in place. What has changed is that people from inside the EU are not counted as foreign any more.

partyguinness

Des wrote: »

The Bosman ruling had zilch to do with the foreigners rule.

In fact, it is still in place. What has changed is that people from inside the EU are not counted as foreign any more.

Well it did indirectly in the sense that it became crystal clear that the rule constituted a restriction on the free movement of persons. This breached EU law.

Effectively clubs knew that arising from the decision that the "3 Foreigner Rule" would also be struck down as illegal and they just abolished it before they were told to do so. Suited them fine.

partyguinness

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I thought that rule had an exception for players who had spent a certain number of years playing in the UK, Bonner may have fitted that criteria

I believe that if the player had come through the youth ranks then he wasnt classed as foreign.

I am a Leeds United supporter and when Leeds were in Europe in the eary 90s, they were able to use Gary Speed in this way as he had always been at Leeds.

ArmaniJeanss

Des wrote: »

The Bosman ruling had zilch to do with the foreigners rule.

In fact, it is still in place. What has changed is that people from inside the EU are not counted as foreign any more.

Yep you're right and I phrased it badly.
I meant that the Bosman ruling, as a side effect, clarified that European and EU laws took precedence over FIFA and UEFA rules in key 'workers rights' areas.
So the Bosman case wasn't about the 3+2 rule but the Bosman judgement immediately led to the 3+2 rule being operated the way it is now.

partyguinness

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Yep you're right and I phrased it badly.
I meant that the Bosman ruling, as a side effect, clarified that European and EU laws took precedence over FIFA and UEFA rules in key 'workers rights' areas.
So the Bosman case wasn't about the 3+2 rule but the Bosman judgement immediately led to the 3+2 rule being operated the way it is now.

The clubs jumped before they were pushed.

noodler

Trilla wrote: »

Yep we all have our opinions on the guy. I personally got pushed down three steps of the Carlow cinema stairs when I was 13 ( I think). Ireland squad was training in Kilkee Castle in Kildare, and went to Carlow cinema for a night out. Got Keith O Neill, Phil Babbs and a few others sigs. Packie was having none of it, pushed through a few people then put his hand out knocking me back a few steps.

Nice to see him keeping the troublemakers at bay I say.

Nalz

noodler wrote: »

Nice to see him keeping the troublemakers at bay I say.

thanks man!

bobbysands81

aidan24326 wrote: »

He was a decent keeper, hardly 'outstanding' though. Hi did start off in England, he was in the youths at Leicester for a bit. I guess he settled in Scotland, held his place at Celtic, was on decent money, winning trophies etc, and never felt the need to leave. Probably no more to it than that. I'm sure he could have played in England if he really wanted to.

I always thought that Packie went straight from Keadue Rovers to Celtic???

bobbysands81

Green Hornet wrote: »

As I'm sure a few of us remember, Packie was an outstanding goalie for Celtic and Ireland. I realise that Scottish football was at a higher level than it is at present but still wonder why Bonner never moved to the English Div 1 at that time?

Is it that he had offers and was happy to stay in Scotland or am I remembering hos exploits with rose tinted glasses?

Do you also find it strange that Maradona, Pele, Puskas etc... never played in England as well?

In the early 80s Scottish teams were actually a force in Europe with Dundee Utd and Aberdeen even making Cup Finals.

Green Hornet

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Do you also find it strange that Maradona, Pele, Puskas etc... never played in England as well?

If you took the time to read through the thread properly you would see that I've already answered that. The original question could have used Germany, Spain, Mongolia, wherever.

I was merely trying to see if his skill level was as high as I remembered it to be. Simple as that. No interest in debates about which league was better 20 years ago.

Irishcrx

Why were English clubs banned from europe?I don't remember this.

Nalz

Irishcrx wrote: »

Why were English clubs banned from europe?I don't remember this.

clicky

_blank_

Irishcrx wrote: »

Why were English clubs banned from europe?I don't remember this.

:eek:

5 Year ban on English Clubs in European competition from 1985-1990, due to the Heysel Stadium Disaster

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990-91)

Draupnir

The maddest thing about the Heysel ban was the fact that the English National Side was exempt, which still to this day makes no sense to me.

Anyway, on Bonner, at one stage in 1988 or 1989 he held the world record for minutes without conceding a goal while at Celtic so he was certainly at the top of his game. Rossi eventually passed him out with AC Milan.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Draupnir wrote: »

The maddest thing about the Heysel ban was the fact that the English National Side was exempt, which still to this day makes no sense to me.

Anyway, on Bonner, at one stage in 1988 or 1989 he held the world record for minutes without conceding a goal while at Celtic so he was certainly at the top of his game. Rossi eventually passed him out with AC Milan.

I take it this record was for internationals while playing for the R.O.I. because it wasn't for Celtic

ArmaniJeanss

Draupnir wrote: »

The maddest thing about the Heysel ban was the fact that the English National Side was exempt, which still to this day makes no sense to me.

There was far more money and prestige in international football back then compared to club football. Back then club football had a tiny television deal with the BBC and ITV, no jersey sponsorships, no champions league money etc.

So the English FA, on behalf of the clubs, were willing to accept a ban for the clubs but not for the international team. The clubs didn't have the support of the FA nor the means to fight it. Prime Minister Thatcher, hugely powerful and hugely anti-football, supported the club ban as well.

It would play out differently now without doubt. For starters I doubt MUFC/ Arsenal/ Chelsea would accept a ban for something associated with Liverpool fans. It would be lawyers time.

gucci

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

It would play out differently now without doubt. For starters I doubt MUFC/ Arsenal/ Chelsea would accept a ban for something associated with Liverpool fans. Internet soccer forums would cause the whole world to implode.

Fixed your post for you there

stovelid

Green Hornet wrote: »

Why Did Packie Bonner Never Play For An English Club?

A fear of his name being misunderstood?

M5

flahavaj wrote: »

Because hes from Donegal.

Eh... so is Mr Given...

Eirebear

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I take it this record was for internationals while playing for the R.O.I. because it wasn't for Celtic

Yeah i'm a little confused by this one too. Van der Saar (debatably) broke Woods' UK record from around the same time did he not?

flahavaj

M5 wrote: »

Eh... so is Mr Given...

Packie is hardcore bai.:pac:

Tomthepost

Because Packie was a Donegal man and because goalkeepers have to be very vocal on the pitch it was felt that it was best to stick to a league where people would understand what he is saying.
It is common knowledge that Shay Given took elocution lessons on leaving Scotland and that on average a EPL goalkeeper today has fluency in five languages.