Broader discussion on grinds

Hillel

pathway33 wrote: »

Should you only go to a teacher for a grind?

You have nothing to lose by going to a non-qualified teacher. If it's not working out you can go elsewhere. If it does, its generally much less expensive and, worst case, you can afford to take additional tuition.

The student should be taught basic exam technique in the classroom - not in grinds! What matters most when taking grinds is that the person giving the grind has a good knowledge of the subject and can impart that knowledge to the pupil. Go by word of mouth. Many non-teachers are excellent at giving grinds and are highly regarded. In some subjects, business studies springs to mind, someone with practical experience in the subject will often be far better at explaining some topics. The same goes for music technology, languages.....

Paid grinds should not be necessary, period. Why should children be disadvantaged if their parents cannot afford extra tuition? Why should grinds be necessary in the first place? The number of students being encouraged to go down that road is an indictment of the whole Irish Educational System. In the UK they have the concept of a school failing its pupils. That concept is long overdue here! The active encouragement of a "grinds culture" is in itself evidence of the need for tighter controls. It should be a condition of employment that a full time teacher should be prohibited from giving private, paid, tuition.

Private grinds by full time teachers are anathema to the concept of a quality educational system. In effect, they provide financial reward for poor quality teaching in the classroom. Any additional tuition required should be done by teachers as part of the school program, without additional cost to the pupil, or remuneration for the teacher. I challenge the teachers on this forum to sponsor this approach - it would go a long way towards countering the widespread perception that teachers are only interested in what they can get, and no longer have their pupils best interests at heart. My suggestion is not new, it was part and parcel of teaching life in Ireland, for many years.

lauralee28

Hillel wrote: »

You have nothing to lose by going to a non-qualified teacher. If it's not working out you can go elsewhere. If it does, its generally much less expensive and, worst case, you can afford to take additional tuition.

The student should be taught basic exam technique in the classroom - not in grinds! What matters most when taking grinds is that the person giving the grind has a good knowledge of the subject and can impart that knowledge to the pupil. Go by word of mouth. Many non-teachers are excellent at giving grinds and are highly regarded. In some subjects, business studies springs to mind, someone with practical experience in the subject will often be far better at explaining some topics. The same goes for music technology, languages.....

Paid grinds should not be necessary, period. Why should children be disadvantaged if their parents cannot afford extra tuition? Why should grinds be necessary in the first place? The number of students being encouraged to go down that road is an indictment of the whole Irish Educational System. In the UK they have the concept of a school failing its pupils. That concept is long overdue here! The active encouragement of a "grinds culture" is in itself evidence of the need for tighter controls. It should be a condition of employment that a full time teacher should be prohibited from giving private, paid, tuition.

Private grinds by full time teachers are anathema to the concept of a quality educational system. In effect, they provide financial reward for poor quality teaching in the classroom. Any additional tuition required should be done by teachers as part of the school program, without additional cost to the pupil, or remuneration for the teacher. I challenge the teachers on this forum to sponsor this approach - it would go a long way towards countering the widespread perception that teachers are only interested in what they can get, and no longer have their pupils best interests at heart. My suggestion is not new, it was part and parcel of teaching life in Ireland, for many years.

As a teacher (and a teacher who gives grinds), I do agree with some of your points. Yes, bad teaching does take place in Irish schools all over the country(I do believe this has however lessened). But there are people bad at their jobs in every profession and while that doesn't justify it in any way, it is a fact of life.
My second point, I think you have a very narrow minded opinion as to the reason a student gets grinds. In the case of Irish for example, they could have an excellent Irish teacher at school but may be weak on the grammar side of things and need help with it. A student may be weak at the Aural(tapework) and need a few extra classes at it to up their grade. A student might be generally weak at the subject and is sitting in a classs with 29 others where a teacher cannot sit and give individual one to one in a 35 minute period. Is this the fault of the classroom teacher? Certainly not. Teachers work very hard in worsening conditions.
As for your points on the UK, while the system is different there, there are still bad teachers and extra tuiton does take place there too. It would be naiive and idealistic of you to think otherwise. No education system in the world is flawless. And grinds is the least of the problems with the Irish Education system at the minute.
As for giving grinds, this does not mean that I am out for "all that I can get" as was said. Yes there is a grinds culture in this country and there is a huge demand for them. This does not make me a bad teacher for being paid for my services out of my school hours. I don't give grinds to my own students in school. As for my students best interests not being at heart, that is a massive generalisation to make and should you speak to any of my school students they would say otherwise too.
As for your concept of all teachers being banned from giving grinds, who will supply this demand? And as for it being timetabled in the school for free........I think you could see the can of worms there.

Hillel

lauralee28 wrote: »

As a teacher (and a teacher who gives grinds), I do agree with some of your points. Yes, bad teaching does take place in Irish schools all over the country(I do believe this has however lessened). But there are people bad at their jobs in every profession and while that doesn't justify it in any way, it is a fact of life.

Thank you. It is refreshing to hear a working teacher acknowledge the very real problems that exist in the profession. Too many try to pretend that all is rosy, when it is patently clear that it is not.
In private industry life has long moved on. We have multiple quality controls, to assess the quality of work done by professionals. This drives personal development plans and links into performance related pay. In this scenario, teachers with consistently poor educational outcomes would be given additional coaching and development. Those with consistently good outcomes would get paid more. It's a win, win.

lauralee28 wrote: »

My second point, I think you have a very narrow minded opinion as to the reason a student gets grinds. In the case of Irish for example, they could have an excellent Irish teacher at school but may be weak on the grammar side of things and need help with it. A student may be weak at the Aural(tapework) and need a few extra classes at it to up their grade. A student might be generally weak at the subject and is sitting in a class with 29 others where a teacher cannot sit and give individual one to one in a 35 minute period. Is this the fault of the classroom teacher? Certainly not. Teachers work very hard in worsening conditions.

I agree that there are many reasons for taking grinds. (I do not believe that learning exam technique is one of them.) I also agree that many teachers work hard. Without doubt, conditions are worsening.

lauralee28 wrote: »

As for your points on the UK, while the system is different there, there are still bad teachers and extra tuition does take place there too. It would be naive and idealistic of you to think otherwise. No education system in the world is flawless. And grinds is the least of the problems with the Irish Education system at the minute.

I would consider the Irish Education system far ahead of the UK, not least in the greater esteem in which teachers are, rightly, held. I do believe that they are far ahead of us in some areas, One of these is the attempts to measure and benchmark educational outcomes and the effectiveness of individual teachers and entire schools. The point I was making, which I suspect you agree with, is that individual teachers and entire schools fail their student population. It is time that we acknowledge this, and have an open and honest debate on how to address it.

lauralee28 wrote: »

As for giving grinds, this does not mean that I am out for "all that I can get" as was said.

You misunderstood my point. I know many hardworking, dedicated, teachers and I would never want to undermine them or the teaching profession. What I said was "the widespread perception that teachers are only interested in what they can get, and no longer have their pupils best interests at heart." That perception, regardless of accuracy, is ubiquitous. It is damaging to the teaching profession and to the country. I suggested one practical means of addressing it.

lauralee28 wrote: »

Yes there is a grinds culture in this country and there is a huge demand for them. This does not make me a bad teacher for being paid for my services out of my school hours.

Of course it doesn't make you a bad teacher. However, increased remuneration should follow from improved teacher performance in the classroom. Instead, the worse the teacher performance in the classroom, the greater the potential for additional private income. This is simply wrong. It lowers the overall quality of the educational system and is deeply inequitable as it skews the system toward the better off.

lauralee28 wrote: »

I don't give grinds to my own students in school.

Giving paid grinds to ones own pupils is unethical and should be covered by the staff code of conduct. Any teacher indulging in such a practice should be subject to the school disciplinary process.

lauralee28 wrote: »

As for your concept of all teachers being banned from giving grinds, who will supply this demand? And as for it being timetabled in the school for free........I think you could see the can of worms there.

I am suggesting that all fulltime teachers be banned from giving paid grinds. I would love to see all teachers give more grinds, on a voluntary basis. One of the justifications for above average teacher pay in Ireland was the amount of out-of-hours voluntary work carried out by teachers. It's time that the profession, once again, lived up to that ideal. My secondary school Maths Teacher gave up two hours every week to teach me and two classmates honors maths. That was normal, at that time. My science teacher gave two extra half hours, every week. The issue of payment simply didn't arise. Parents hadn't the money to pay and it was expected of teachers in my school.

I taught at third level for fifteen years and routinely gave unpaid tutorials to my classes. I am extremely proud that two of these went on to gain international recognition in their chosen fields. At a time when the country is on its knees it behooves every educator to contribute in any way they can. Most are in a privileged position, not only in terms of job security but also in terms of the opportunities that were available to them. Surely it is important that the same opportunities be available to all children, today.

This is an opportunity for teachers to stand up and be counted. To acknowledge that that are well paid, have exceptionally good terms of employment, and decide to give something back. Also to acknowledge that many in the private are suffering real hardship and shouldn't have to be burdened with the aditional cost of grinds. If every teacher were to contribute a couple of hours a week, the private grinds market would disappear overnight. This would be good for the education system and would go a long way toward restoring the high esteem in which the teaching profession was long held. I challenge you to respond, favorably.

Toto Wolfcastle

Hillel wrote: »

I am suggesting that all fulltime teachers be banned from giving paid grinds. I would love to see all teachers give more grinds, on a voluntary basis. One of the justifications for above average teacher pay in Ireland was the amount of out-of-hours voluntary work carried out by teachers. It's time that the profession, once again, lived up to that ideal. My secondary school Maths Teacher gave up two hours every week to teach me and two classmates honors maths. That was normal, at that time. My science teacher gave two extra half hours, every week. The issue of payment simply didn't arise. Parents hadn't the money to pay and it was expected of teachers in my school.

I taught at third level for fifteen years and routinely gave unpaid tutorials to my classes. I am extremely proud that two of these went on to gain international recognition in their chosen fields. At a time when the country is on its knees it behooves every educator to contribute in any way they can. Most are in a privileged position, not only in terms of job security but also in terms of the opportunities that were available to them. Surely it is important that the same opportunities be available to all children, today.

This is an opportunity for teachers to stand up and be counted. To acknowledge that that are well paid, have exceptionally good terms of employment, and decide to give something back. Also to acknowledge that many in the private are suffering real hardship and shouldn't have to be burdened with the aditional cost of grinds. If every teacher were to contribute a couple of hours a week, the private grinds market would disappear overnight. This would be good for the education system and would go a long way toward restoring the high esteem in which the teaching profession was long held. I challenge you to respond, favorably.

I'm entirely sure that many teachers make themselves available to students who are having trouble outside of class time. I'm a teacher and I am available to clarify things with students after school or at lunchtime. The majority of my colleagues do too. However, there is a huge difference between helping students from your own classes and giving paid grinds to students from outside your own school. I can't see how those two are related in any way, so I can't see how you can use them as an argument that teachers should be banned from giving paid grinds. What a teacher does outside of his or her own school is his or her own business. I don't give grinds myself. I don't need the extra money and I like to concentrate on my own classes. I'd like to think that if I wanted or needed to I would be able to.

There will always be kids who need grinds. A couple of extra hours a week from the teacher is not enough for some.

Hillel

janeybabe wrote: »

I'm a teacher and I am available to clarify things with students after school or at lunchtime.

Are you up for my challenge, then?
Two hours per week of structured tuition with needy pupils?

janeybabe wrote: »

However, there is a huge difference between helping students from your own classes and giving paid grinds to students from outside your own school. I can't see how those two are related in any way, so I can't see how you can use them as an argument that teachers should be banned from giving paid grinds.

I didn't link the two. I just pointed out, in response to a post, that giving paid grinds to ones own pupils was, at best, unethical.

janeybabe wrote: »

What a teacher does outside of his or her own school is his or her own business.

You might want to reconsider that position.:)

janeybabe wrote: »

There will always be kids who need grinds. A couple of extra hours a week from the teacher is not enough for some.

But it would make a big difference to others. Are you up for the challenge?

Toto Wolfcastle

No, structured tuition like that would not work. I am available when I can be available. Students in general don't want help when I can be available, for example, after school or at lunchtime. So no, I am not up for your 'challenge'. And why should I reconsider the position that what a teacher does outside of school is his or her own business? I don't entirely understand what you mean by that.

implausible

Hillel wrote: »

In private industry life has long moved on. We have multiple quality controls, to assess the quality of work done by professionals. This drives personal development plans and links into performance related pay. In this scenario, teachers with consistently poor educational outcomes would be given additional coaching and development. Those with consistently good outcomes would get paid more. It's a win, win.

IN fairness Hillel, you are coming from a far different place than the vast majority of secondary-school teachers. In 3rd level, you have students who (a) want to be there and (b) have a certain level of academic attainment. So in that case, it's all very well to use speech which has more in common with the world of business than education.

This does not work in a second-level scenario where we must accept all comers with various needs - special needs, behavioural difficulties, lack of fluency in the language required to succeed, social problems and an endemic negative attitude to education as well as the 'normal' children. And that is who we are dealing with -children, not units.

Performance related pay is an absolute no-no, not because of underperforming teachers but the logistical impossibility of implementing a fair system. And while I admit there are 'bad' teachers out there, adding even more layers of bureaucracy onto already overloaded 'good' teachers will not fix this.

Grinds are a result sometimes of a teaching deficiency, but more often of a student's lack of attendance and/or attention.

Hillel

janeybabe wrote: »

No, structured tuition like that would not work. I am available when I can be available. Students in general don't want help when I can be available, for example, after school or at lunchtime. So no, I am not up for your 'challenge'.

Your position is crystal clear. You will only provide extra help if you are paid. Don't try and pin it on students, if you wanted to make it work, you could.

janeybabe wrote: »

And why should I reconsider the position that what a teacher does outside of school is his or her own business? I don't entirely understand what you mean by that.

Maybe, you need to think about it a bit more.

Hillel

deemark wrote: »

IN fairness Hillel, you are coming from a far different place than the vast majority of secondary-school teachers. In 3rd level, you have students who (a) want to be there and (b) have a certain level of academic attainment. So in that case, it's all very well to use speech which has more in common with the world of business than education.

This does not work in a second-level scenario where we must accept all comers with various needs - special needs, behavioural difficulties, lack of fluency in the language required to succeed, social problems and an endemic negative attitude to education as well as the 'normal' children. And that is who we are dealing with -children, not units.

My choice of language was deliberate. It's well time that some clear thinking from Industry was brought into the Irish Educational System. I am well versed in the pedagogical approaches to teaching teenagers and young adults. I am also very aware that we are dealing with children, teenagers and young adults - that's why I find the whole concept of the grind culture so utterly offensive. There was a time when teachers unions took a strong line on this, they need to start doing so again.

deemark wrote: »

Performance related pay is an absolute no-no, not because of underperforming teachers but the logistical impossibility of implementing a fair system.

Of course its not an "absolute no-no", neither is it impossible to implement a fair system. The current increment system is patently unfair - a teacher's pay is based entirely on length of service, rather than ability and contribution.

deemark wrote: »

Grinds are a result sometimes of a teaching deficiency, but more often of a student's lack of attendance and/or attention.

Have you any evidence to back this up? In my experience grinds fall mainly into two categories: i) the class teacher is ineffective, ii) the student wants high grades for a specific third level course.

Anyway, are you up for my challenge?

implausible

Hillel wrote: »

Have you any evidence to back this up? In my experience grinds fall mainly into two categories: i) the class teacher is ineffective, ii) the student wants high grades for a specific third level course.

Anyway, are you up for my challenge?

My evidence is anecdotal. If I had a euro for every time, the claim of 'she doesn't explain it properly' was proved wrong, I'd be loaded.

The students I have given grinds to do fall into your categories, but there is a third far larger category - absence and/or inattention.

An example? Last week, I had as JC student who told me 'he just does the questions, he doesn't explain them properly'. When I asked her if she went home and looked over the maths examples at home, she looked at me blankly and said 'no'. So mammy ignores the 'constant chatting' comment on her report and rings me for grinds. Child zones out in class, mammy pays. Over the years I've had students who said that the teacher never covered a poet (for example), but when I started going over it with them, a light came on in their head. Students who didn't 'get' the comparative, who it later transpired had been absent or asleep when it was explained. I could go on.

And as for your challenge, would someone taking you up on it prove you right? Your perception of teachers seems to be typical of the general populace - lazy and greedy.

A few years ago, an after-school programme offered (free) extra-tuition to students in our school. The uptake? At first, decent enough, but it soon dwindled to nothing, the programme ended. People have no value on anything that is free.

When I first started out, I used to come in to school on the sat morning before the orals for a few hours. I stopped after the second year. Why? I was left there like a lemon, while only 1 or 2 turned up. Again, no value on anything that is free. (Incidentally, a teacher of another subject in that school gave grinds to groups of up to 10 students, charged them €15 per head for an hour and couldn't keep up with the demand)

So your challenge? I've learned the hard way...eh, no thanks.

implausible

Hillel wrote: »

My choice of language was deliberate. It's well time that some clear thinking from Industry was brought into the Irish Educational System.

Of course its not an "absolute no-no", neither is it impossible to implement a fair system. The current increment system is patently unfair - a teacher's pay is based entirely on length of service, rather than ability and contribution.

It is this language that has led to teachers spending longer on policies and paperwork than on actually preparing and teaching classes. Education does not equal industry. Again, the Irish are following an English system that doesn't work.

I would love to see the equation that takes into account every aspect of a school, each student's ability, progress and results and teaching methods to give a fair figure for performance-related pay. Sounds like a sure-fire way to a two-tier system. Oh, wait, that's what the British have, let's try that!:eek:

Again, we are not dealing with units.

Cian92

Hillel wrote: »

In private industry life has long moved on. We have multiple quality controls, to assess the quality of work done by professionals. This drives personal development plans and links into performance related pay. In this scenario, teachers with consistently poor educational outcomes would be given additional coaching and development. Those with consistently good outcomes would get paid more. It's a win, win.

Where to even start... a school is not a business! Many schools are in disadvantaged areas where litle value is put on education, its alot harder to teach these kids so you cant just grade a teacher as others might have an easier job where all students want to be there and get the best possible result. Logistically this would be impossible to implement, does the teacher teaching higher level get paid more than those doing ordinary, what about those teaching in disadvantaged areas?

Hillel wrote: »

Of course it doesn't make you a bad teacher. However, increased remuneration should follow from improved teacher performance in the classroom.

Once again same point as above.

Hillel wrote: »

I am suggesting that all fulltime teachers be banned from giving paid grinds. I would love to see all teachers give more grinds, on a voluntary basis.

I do not see why, there is nothing wrong with getting a little bit of extra money on the side. This could be the renumeration you wanted to see good teachers getting a student will not go to crap teachers.

peanuthead

deemark wrote: »

your experience sounds exceptional. Someone with a degree in English may have read all the material on the course but would be useless to a Leaving Cert student for grinds. You need experience in teaching the course and exam technique to be any good at giving grinds, especially at Leaving Cert level. Knowledge does not equal teaching ability.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. It totally depends on the subject. Certain subjects, mainly languages and possibly maths can be taught by non teachers who may be very good at these subjects, but something like English - you have to have specific knowledge of literaty criticism, poetry etc to give good grinds successfully.

Find someone - get grinds. If they're not helping you, find someone else!

pathway33

Cian92 wrote: »

there is nothing wrong with getting a little bit of extra money on the side

:eek: I hope you're not suggesting that the teachers of ireland are evading tax :eek:

gaeilgebeo

deemark wrote: »

My evidence is anecdotal. If I had a euro for every time, the claim of 'she doesn't explain it properly' was proved wrong, I'd be loaded.

The students I have given grinds to do fall into your categories, but there is a third far larger category - absence and/or inattention.

An example? Last week, I had as JC student who told me 'he just does the questions, he doesn't explain them properly'. When I asked her if she went home and looked over the maths examples at home, she looked at me blankly and said 'no'. So mammy ignores the 'constant chatting' comment on her report and rings me for grinds. Child zones out in class, mammy pays. Over the years I've had students who said that the teacher never covered a poet (for example), but when I started going over it with them, a light came on in their head. Students who didn't 'get' the comparative, who it later transpired had been absent or asleep when it was explained. I could go on.

And as for your challenge, would someone taking you up on it prove you right? Your perception of teachers seems to be typical of the general populace - lazy and greedy.

A few years ago, an after-school programme offered (free) extra-tuition to students in our school. The uptake? At first, decent enough, but it soon dwindled to nothing, the programme ended. People have no value on anything that is free.

When I first started out, I used to come in to school on the sat morning before the orals for a few hours. I stopped after the second year. Why? I was left there like a lemon, while only 1 or 2 turned up. Again, no value on anything that is free. (Incidentally, a teacher of another subject in that school gave grinds to groups of up to 10 students, charged them €15 per head for an hour and couldn't keep up with the demand)

So your challenge? I've learned the hard way...eh, no thanks.

Well well said. Great to hear another teacher from the real world....

Toto Wolfcastle

Hillel wrote: »

Your position is crystal clear. You will only provide extra help if you are paid. Don't try and pin it on students, if you wanted to make it work, you could.

Excuse me? You obviously did not read my post. No where did I suggest that I will only provide extra help if I am paid. I said I provide extra help and lunchtime and after school if the kids want that extra help. I would never even consider asking for payment for this. Last year I had 3 students ask me for extra help which I provided in my free time. They asked me once despite the fact that I mentioned that I would provide extra help on many occasions. As for me making it work if I wanted to, I am not responsible for the students outside of my class. I do not have to provide extra help. I have, and am very willing to continue to, but I leave it up to the kids to decide whether they want the help or not. I am not there to baby them. They have to be responsible for their own learning outside of normal classes. If they want extra help then all they have to do is ask. I have never given grinds, so all I am paid for is my job as a teacher. I suggest that you read my posts more carefully in future to avoid making up blatant lies about my 'position'.

Hillel

deemark wrote: »

I would love to see the equation that takes into account every aspect of a school, each student's ability, progress and results and teaching methods to give a fair figure for performance-related pay.

The OECD’s Teaching and Learning International Survey was published on the 16/06/2009. "The results derived are based on self-reports from teachers and principals and therefore represent their opinions, perceptions, beliefs and their accounts of their activities." (Page 22)

Its main policy lesson is "that education authorities need to provide more effective incentives for teachers. Many countries make no link between appraisal of teachers’ performance and the rewards and recognition that they receive, and even where there are such links they are often not very strong."
See http://www.oecd.org/document/35/0,3343,en_2649_37455_43018915_1_1_1_1,00.html

So, its not just me saying that performance-related pay is required!

That leaves the question of what to measure and how?
A simple measure (lets walk before we can run) would be to link increments and other pay increases to lifelong, professional development programs.
Like industry, that development would be in teachers own time, at their own cost. The reward be the annual pay increase (including increment) and associated pension entitlements.

Why choose that approach?

Chapter 3 of the OCED Report (Pages 47-76) deals with professional development of teachers. "The most effective types of development, according to teachers, are those in which they (currently) participate least – especially programmes leading to qualifications, and to a lesser degree, research activities.
The most effective types of development are also those for which teachers are more likely to have had to pay the full or partial cost and devote most time to." (Table 3.8, Page 78)
Yet, Ireland is at the bottom of the league is this area. An area that is recognised as essential to the effectiveness of teaching in the classroom. On average among all lower secondary teachers in the participating countries, teachers had 15.3 days of professional development in the 18 months prior to the survey – yet Ireland had 5.6 days. (Page 53, Table 3.1). The entire report runs to 305 pages and can be purchased here: http://www.oecdbookshop.org/oecd/display.asp?K=5KSGRCG1TDJB&lang=EN&sort=sort_date%2Fd&stem=true&sf1=Title&st1=Creating+Effective+Teaching+and+Learning+Environments&sf3=SubjectCode&st4=not+E4+or+E5+or+P5&sf4=SubVersionCode&ds=Creating+Effective+Teaching+and+Learning+Environments%3B+All+Subjects%3B+&m=2&dc=2&plang=en
It gives many insights into the improvements that are necessary in the Irish Secondary School System.

Lets not be so quick to blame the pupils, for driving the grinds culture!:)
The problems are deep in the structure and staffing of our educational system.
Now, fixing that would surely be something the teachers unions could campaign on.

gaeilgegrinds

I always worked on the basis that for every grind I give outside of school I give one for free in school. That way my students never study. I've never accepted a penny or even cent from my students in school. It's actually not allowed. I do believe a thorough knowledge of exam structure and marking experience is necessary for my subjects but I'm not so sure if they are as important for knowledge based subjects.

Hillel

Cian92 wrote: »

Where to even start... a school is not a business!

Why not? One of the failings of the current system is that schools are not treated as the, albeit specialized, businesses they are. Some of the private schools are doing so well precisely because they are run and managed as businesses.

Cian92 wrote: »

Many schools are in disadvantaged areas where litle value is put on education, its alot harder to teach these kids so you cant just grade a teacher as others might have an easier job where all students want to be there and get the best possible result. Logistically this would be impossible to implement, does the teacher teaching higher level get paid more than those doing ordinary, what about those teaching in disadvantaged areas?

Just because its not easy, is not to say it can't, and shouldn't, be done.
I'm not proposing for a moment that remuneration would be based on exam results, alone. School demographics, teacher qualifications, etc would all have to be taken into account. What teaching area, if any, should be given preference is a policy issue. (Personally, I would give a premium for working with disadvantaged pupils and for teaching higher level maths and the sciences. But, as I said, that really is a policy area.)

Cian92 wrote: »

I do not see why, there is nothing wrong with getting a little bit of extra money on the side. This could be the renumeration you wanted to see good teachers getting a student will not go to crap teachers.

I don't begrudge any good teacher a "little bit of extra" on the side. Unfortunately, its not that simple. Firstly, it is grossly inequitable as it creates a two-tier educational system. Secondly, it means that the underlying problems in the educational system are masked and are not properly addressed. (The people with the ability and influence to make change happen are simply not motivated to do so. Why should they, its their children who benefit from the grinds.) There must be other opportunities to make money, with no conflict of interest.

Hillel

janeybabe wrote: »

Excuse me? You obviously did not read my post. No where did I suggest that I will only provide extra help if I am paid. I said I provide extra help and lunchtime and after school if the kids want that extra help. I would never even consider asking for payment for this. Last year I had 3 students ask me for extra help which I provided in my free time. They asked me once despite the fact that I mentioned that I would provide extra help on many occasions. As for me making it work if I wanted to, I am not responsible for the students outside of my class. I do not have to provide extra help. I have, and am very willing to continue to, but I leave it up to the kids to decide whether they want the help or not. I am not there to baby them. They have to be responsible for their own learning outside of normal classes. If they want extra help then all they have to do is ask. I have never given grinds, so all I am paid for is my job as a teacher. I suggest that you read my posts more carefully in future to avoid making up blatant lies about my 'position'.

Fair enough, I was responding to your reply below, and misinterpreted it. Sorry

janeybabe wrote: »

No, structured tuition like that would not work. I am available when I can be available. Students in general don't want help when I can be available, for example, after school or at lunchtime. So no, I am not up for your 'challenge'.

implausible

Hillel wrote: »

Why not? One of the failings of the current system is that schools are not treated as the, albeit specialized, businesses they are. Some of the private schools are doing so well precisely because they are run and managed as businesses.

I don't begrudge any good teacher a "little bit of extra" on the side. Unfortunately, its not that simple. Firstly, it is grossly inequitable as it creates a two-tier educational system. Secondly, it means that the underlying problems in the educational system are masked and are not properly addressed. (The people with the ability and influence to make change happen are simply not motivated to do so. Why should they, its their children who benefit from the grinds.) There must be other opportunities to make money, with no conflict of interest.

A business is run to turn a profit! It is not a model for education and you are worried about creating a two-tier system:rolleyes:

I have already stated that grinds are not solely the result of a failing education system. There will always be a demand for private tuition.

You are very focused on individual teachers giving grinds, what about the grind schools, which are pure businesses? Now, that is a two-tier system!

Cian92

Hillel wrote: »

Why not? One of the failings of the current system is that schools are not treated as the, albeit specialized, businesses they are. Some of the private schools are doing so well precisely because they are run and managed as businesses.

Once again, everyone going to this school has a common goal, and that is to get the best possible LC. In so many other schools this is not the case, thus disrupting work and well making it alot harder to get anything done.

Hillel wrote: »

I'm not proposing for a moment that remuneration would be based on exam results, alone. School demographics, teacher qualifications, etc would all have to be taken into account. What teaching area, if any, should be given preference is a policy issue.

Good to hear, you dont want it done on results alone.. Teachers do get extra pay for having extra qualifications aswell.

Hillel wrote: »

Firstly, it is grossly inequitable as it creates a two-tier educational system. Secondly, it means that the underlying problems in the educational system are masked and are not properly

I do agree that it creates a two tier system, but currently does pupils from families with less money get into college course with less points so it balances itself out.

implausible

Hillel wrote: »

Its main policy lesson is "that education authorities need to provide more effective incentives for teachers. Many countries make no link between appraisal of teachers’ performance and the rewards and recognition that they receive, and even where there are such links they are often not very strong."
See http://www.oecd.org/document/35/0,3343,en_2649_37455_43018915_1_1_1_1,00.html

(snip)

A simple measure (lets walk before we can run) would be to link increments and other pay increases to lifelong, professional development programs.
Like industry, that development would be in teachers own time, at their own cost. The reward be the annual pay increase (including increment) and associated pension entitlements.

(snip)

Lets not be so quick to blame the pupils, for driving the grinds culture!:)
The problems are deep in the structure and staffing of our educational system.

The report you quote identifies two main problems - lack of incentive to improve and disruption in classrooms.

Linking increments to professional development would result in teachers doing courses just to get the increment! Besides, there is already an allowance in place to do a Masters. However, I do not feel that teachers should be coerced into doing courses in which they have no interest in order to earn what they are due. Surely incentivising the majority of good teachers to stay in the profession by giving an annual increment is a good thing?

Most of your ideas are based on the assumption that there are a majority of bad teachers in the system, resulting in the system failing and grinds are a symptom of this. I won't deny that there are teachers who work the system and don't put in the work, but this is the case in every profession! Teaching does not have the monopoly on ineffective workers but don't penalise us all for it. Grinds are the result of parents wanting to give a leg-up to their children, regardless of reason. Even a perfect system would not eliminate this.

Hillel

deemark wrote: »

A business is run to turn a profit! It is not a model for education and you are worried about creating a two-tier system:rolleyes:

On the contrary, there are many areas where good business principles could, and should, be applied to public schools. Just one example: Businesses are used to managing resources carefully, or they go to the wall. Schools too, have to manage on scarce resources, and on a limited budget. Yet, typically, no one in the school management team has expertise in this area. I have seen waste, now addressed, that ran into 10's thousands of euro.

deemark wrote: »

I have already stated that grinds are not solely the result of a failing education system. There will always be a demand for private tuition.

I have no issue with pupils getting private tuition from private teachers or other qualified individuals in the private sector.
It is an unfortunate, but inevitable, trend. However, there is no conflict of interest.

deemark wrote: »

You are very focused on individual teachers giving grinds, what about the grind schools, which are pure businesses? Now, that is a two-tier system!

Remember that teachers giving grinds was the subject of the thread.

It is unfortunate that parents, and often pupils, consider Grind Schools necessary. One has to ask why. The ideal situation would be that such schools would be unattractive for all but a minority of pupils. Much work is required in the secondary school system before that will be the case. The report I referred to earlier is a useful starting point in considering the changes necessary. It should be mandatory reading for all in positions of authority, or influence, in the Secondary Education Sector.

Hillel

deemark wrote: »

The report you quote identifies two main problems - lack of incentive to improve and disruption in classrooms.

I gave a direct quote from the OCED, and supplied the link. It is unambiguous: "Its main policy lesson is that education authorities need to provide more effective incentives for teachers. Many countries make no link between appraisal of teachers’ performance and the rewards and recognition that they receive, and even where there are such links they are often not very strong." (Emphasis mine.)

deemark wrote: »

Linking increments to professional development would result in teachers doing courses just to get the increment! Besides, there is already an allowance in place to do a Masters.

That's exactly my intent - linking pay increases to ongoing professional development. Each school would have a governance policy in place to ensure that the professional development involved was appropriate to the roles and duties of the teacher.

deemark wrote: »

I do not feel that teachers should be coerced into doing courses in which they have no interest in order to earn what they are due.

Why should a teacher be due an increment, just for putting in the hours?? This doesn't, and shouldn't, happen in the private sector. Neither should it happen in the school system.

deemark wrote: »

Surely incentivising the majority of good teachers to stay in the profession by giving an annual increment is a good thing?

There is no evidence of any need to incentivise. Its simply not necessary.

deemark wrote: »

Most of your ideas are based on the assumption that there are a majority of bad teachers in the system, resulting in the system failing and grinds are a symptom of this.

I believe that the majority of teachers are let down by a system that is failing them and their pupils. I also believe that the grinds culture is one, but only one, symptom of this. (I don't say this lightly. I am deeply involved in a school that deals primarily with deprived children, and have been involved in the area of educational disadvantage for many years.)

deemark wrote: »

I won't deny that there are teachers who work the system and don't put in the work, but this is the case in every profession! Teaching does not have the monopoly on ineffective workers but don't penalize us all for it.

I'm not suggesting penalizing any teacher.
The changes I suggest are not oppressive, they would transform the profession.

deemark wrote: »

Grinds are the result of parents wanting to give a leg-up to their children, regardless of reason. Even a perfect system would not eliminate this.

Agreed, a perfect system would not eliminate all grinds.

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

My evidence is anecdotal. If I had a euro for every time, the claim of 'she doesn't explain it properly' was proved wrong, I'd be loaded.

The students I have given grinds to do fall into your categories, but there is a third far larger category - absence and/or inattention.

An example? Last week, I had as JC student who told me 'he just does the questions, he doesn't explain them properly'. When I asked her if she went home and looked over the maths examples at home, she looked at me blankly and said 'no'. So mammy ignores the 'constant chatting' comment on her report and rings me for grinds. Child zones out in class, mammy pays. Over the years I've had students who said that the teacher never covered a poet (for example), but when I started going over it with them, a light came on in their head. Students who didn't 'get' the comparative, who it later transpired had been absent or asleep when it was explained. I could go on.

And as for your challenge, would someone taking you up on it prove you right? Your perception of teachers seems to be typical of the general populace - lazy and greedy.

A few years ago, an after-school programme offered (free) extra-tuition to students in our school. The uptake? At first, decent enough, but it soon dwindled to nothing, the programme ended. People have no value on anything that is free.

When I first started out, I used to come in to school on the sat morning before the orals for a few hours. I stopped after the second year. Why? I was left there like a lemon, while only 1 or 2 turned up. Again, no value on anything that is free. (Incidentally, a teacher of another subject in that school gave grinds to groups of up to 10 students, charged them €15 per head for an hour and couldn't keep up with the demand)

So your challenge? I've learned the hard way...eh, no thanks.

+1 on everything here.

I used to give grinds, I've knocked it on the head this year. If students from my own classes needed or wanted extra help, I gave up my free time after school to help them for free. As deemark said, when students are getting something for free they don't appreciate it, or as I found they abuse it. I found it was always the motivated, interested students that came in for extra classes that didn't need it and not the ones it was aimed at. When they did come in they would turn up late and look outraged when I told them I had to leave and go home at half 5 'but I thought you were doing an hour after school?' me: well i started this class at 4.15, it's not my fault you only turned up at quarter to five. I also had one other rule. If you're not doing the work in my class, don't show your face after school. I was damned if a student was going to sit in my class 5 times a week and do nothing and then expect one to one duition for free in my free time. I have no problem with a student who is weak but working, but for a student that just can't be bothered even doing the bare minimum and then looking for extra tuition... well as deemark said, you learn the hard way.

I gave grinds on a private basis to students from other schools and got paid for it. Grinds students don't just fall into two categories. Many of them are going to grinds because they don't listen in class or their attendance is poor and the solution to that problem like so many other things in this country over the last few years was to throw money at the problem. Parents had the attitude that if their child wasn't making the grade in school, they would send them to grinds. Some students that came to me were getting grinds in 3 or 4 different subjects. Many of them didn't do a tap of work in school and would rather pay for the grind than apply themselves in class.

Another trend I noticed is that a number of the students that came to me were driving their own cars, parents weren't dropping them off anymore, it became clear that to pay for their cars they were working a number of part time jobs and therefore weren't doing any homework or study and school attendance was a lot worse than it should have been. All they wanted was a car and money and then were attending grinds to make up the shortfall in study. Those grinds students were not the easiest to deal with as they had no work ethic where schoolwork was concerned.

There are plenty of students out there who go home to their parents and tell them that 'X teacher is crap, doesn't explain anything' when the reality is they are doing no work and when their parents fork out for grinds they think by going to a teacher for one to one tuition once a week that all the information will magically go into their heads and stay their because they had paid for the service.

I had one college student last year who approached me for chemistry grinds because he had to take it in first year and hadn't done it for Leaving Cert. He used to land along with his lecture notes printed out every week as the lecturer made his powerpoint presentations available to the students. One week he came without notes and I asked him where they were. He told me a different lecturer was taking the second part of the course and didn't use powerpoint but used overheads. So I asked to see his hand written notes and he told me he didn't have any. I put it to him that how was I supposed to know what topics he had covered if he didn't have any notes and how was he supposed to study if he didn't have any notes or even a list of topics. He looked at me like I had two heads, that the idea of having to actually write down the information was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard. Surely just turning up to the lecture was enough. I put him straight on that one fairly quickly. Now this lad is pretty intelligent and sensible most of the time so I was amazed to see this attitude. But it isn't wholly different in secondary school students and it's their apathy towards work a lot of the time that drives the demand for grinds. Throw money at the problem and it will go away.

gaeilgebeo

Well said Rainbowtrout. You make some very good and valid points in relation to the real side of education/grinds. Couldn't have put it better myself!

pathway33

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

You make some evry good and valid points

nice to see the literacy levels of qualified teachers are not dropping

gaeilgebeo

pathway33 wrote: »

nice to see the literacy levels of qualified teachers are not dropping

Apologies for the "typing" error. How dare I as a qualified teacher! Bad teacher:D

Hillel

deemark wrote: »

The students I have given grinds to do fall into your categories, but there is a third far larger category - absence and/or inattention.

But, a pupils attention level, or lack therof, is heavily influenced by the classroom environment. It is all too easy to blame the shortcomings of pupils rather than consider the efficacy of the school and classroom environment.

To quote relevant extracts from page 89 of TALIS:

"Teachers’ beliefs, practices and attitudes are important for understanding and improving educational processes." ..... "and they shape students’ learning environment and influence student motivation and achievement."

"Instructional practices, in turn, depend on what teachers bring to the classroom. Professional competence is believed to be a crucial factor in classroom and school practices."

From page 90 of TALIS:

"Good instruction, of course, is not determined just by the teacher’s background, beliefs and attitudes; it should also be responsive to students’ needs and various student, classroom and school background factors."

"A modern view of teaching also includes professional activities on the school level, ... (which) shape the learning environment on the school level, i.e. the school climate, ethos and culture, and thus directly and indirectly (via classroom-level processes) affect student learning."

(All emphasis mine.)

Ireland is at the very bottom of the league in terms of ongoing, career long, professional development for teachers. Until substantial progress has been made in this area it behoves everyone to be careful when blaming pupils for educational problems in the classroom. Any chance that other factors could also be at play????

eVeNtInE

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