Unbilled Management Fees?

legallyblondekk

Has anyone had a similar experience that might be able to help. I have been living in my house for four years now in a private housing estate comprising houses, duplexes and apartments. While management fees were mentioned by my solicitor in the early stages of buying the house, until a little while ago I heard nothing more. About three months ago I got a bill asking for 3 and a half years of management fees (1500ish)to be paid-I took no action at all thinking they'd write another few times before it got 'urgent'. Last week I got a court summons after only that first letter. I spoke to a friend of mine who lives in the same estate and he has never received any bill for management fees in the almost 4 years since his house was built. I've called the managment co and spoke to several people who all say I have to pay or go to court. To be honest I cant afford it!!! Does anyone have any advice or experience in this area?

Paulw

Offer to make payments, as much as you can and as often as you can. Do this in writing. That way, if it does go to court, you can prove that you have made every effort to pay, considering the circumstances.

Yes, you are legally liable for the costs, even if you haven't been billed to date though, so you must pay. But, they must also allow you to pay over a reasonable period of time.

MunsterCycling

Get your resident committee to sack the management company and also demand intemised bills from them for the services they have provided, if they can supply these then you have no way out of paying them but if not then they will have a hard time proving they provided such services in court.

Management companies => free money gravy train

Paulw

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Get your resident committee to sack the management company and also demand intemised bills from them for the services they have provided, if they can supply these then you have no way out of paying them but if not then they will have a hard time proving they provided such services in court.

Firstly, a resident's committee can't fire a management company. You must mean that the OP should get the management company to fire the management agent.

A management company is owned and run by the shareholders (owners of the units within the development). It is up to the directors of the management company to make a budget for each year, and charge according to that. You should be getting information each year, about the budget, accounts, election of directors, etc at the management company AGM.

The management agent should be sending out the information, and also the invoices.

Worst case, contact the directors of the management company (look them up on the CRO) and agree with them how you can pay your debt.

legallyblondekk

Ye have a pretty good idea that I will have to pay them but in fairness I think that if they didnt actually bill me, and several other people, then they shouldnt be able to just demand a lump sum and for it to be allowed is just typical of fat cat ireland. I know that in England if service charges arent billed within 18months of being incurred then they cant be demanded. Isnt it funny that this has been such an issue for people over the past few years but yet the 'management co' who is essentially the developer, is completely unregulated and can do what they want, usually without having to answer to anyone. In fairness I dont think this management company could prove they did a whole lot, I am at the end of a row and have had grafetti on my side wall for quite a while now and cut my own grass etc. Anyway thanks a million to you both for your input.

Paulw

legallyblondekk wrote: »

the 'management co' who is essentially the developer, is completely unregulated and can do what they want,

No, the management company is NOT the developer. The management company is totally separate. Yeah, the developer may (for the startup) be the directors of the management company, but the developer legally can't take any funds from the management company.

Everyone that owns a property in your development is a shareholder of the management company. You should be running it, and electing your own directors, and setting your own budgets.

If you're not aware of what is happening, or how your management company is being run, then it's time for you to start asking questions and educate yourself.

I, in my development, am a director of our management company, and I help run it. I have nothing to do with any developer and am just a unit owner who wanted more control and accountability.

MunsterCycling

Yes the residents can fire the Management company/agent, please stop misleading people

Sponge Bob

The OWNERS, individually , are the shareholders in the management company . They cannot fire THEMSELVES .

The management company then appoints a managing agent to do the work...in this case it looks like gardening and landscaping based on the numbers.

As an owner/shareholder you are entitled to see the accounts and recieve notice of and attend the company AGM .

Paulw

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Yes the residents can fire the Management company/agent, please stop misleading people

Where are you getting your information from? It's totally incorrect.

A management company is formed, normally as a requirement by the planning authority. The management company is made up of it's shareholders, who are the unit owners in the development.

The management company hires a management agent to do the tasks. They are two very separate legal entities and are often confused (like you're doing here). This confusion causes lots of problems. The management company can use any management agent or even not use a management agent. The management company can fire the managemet agent at any stage.

The management company cannot be fired/replaced. It, in effect, owns the development. This is especially the case for apartment blocks, but less so for houses.

A resident's association/committee has no legal power. They cannot fire what they haven't hired. They cannot fire the management company because the unit owners ARE the management company. A resident's association cannot fire the management agent either, only the directors of the management company can.

Please stop confusing the management company with the management agent.

Sponge Bob

and if the management company goes bankrupt and is struck off you are in very deep **** if you ever try to sell the place .

MunsterCycling

Manangement companies are the very reason you should never NEVER buy in a managed complex

Sponge Bob

The whole thing is a mess. Read this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055310888

Read this article , if your management company is struck off for a year you must go to the High Court to unstrike it

http://www.apartmentowners.ie/knowledge-library/resurrecting-your-management-company/

There is even a Regulator quango for management companies and estate agents with an office out in Navan. They sit around all day doing nothing . You could ring them , they are lonely .

http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/whatwedo-en

Management companies will have to become 'property service providers' and register , some time in the next 5 years maybe .

Paulw

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Manangement companies are the very reason you should never NEVER buy in a managed complex

You've obviously never lived in, nor had any practical dealings with a managed development. Your opinion is not based on facts, and again, you can't seem to back up anything you're saying.

Managed developments and management companies, when properly run, make for great developments to live in. But, you need to understand the facts and know what is going on.

I live in a managed development, I am a director of our management company, and our place is quite well run (nothing in life is perfect), and our fees are appropriate. When we see faults or faults are reported by unit owners, they are dealt with as best we can.

Paulw

Sponge Bob wrote: »

http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/whatwedo-en

Management companies will have to become 'property service providers' and register , some time in the next 5 years maybe .

Don't you mean management agents? From the page quoted, it only refers to property management agents, not management companies.

Sponge Bob

Life is too short to check Paul , you are probably right . I know of a management company in Galway where the developer has legged it abroad and with half the gaffs unsold and the place unfinished. The owners are trying to get control of it but it will cost them and anyway NAMA will be the largest shareholder in the company by next year.

Like I said, they are lonely out there so ring them

daheff

Paulw wrote: »

No, the management company is NOT the developer. The management company is totally separate. Yeah, the developer may (for the startup) be the directors of the management company, but the developer legally can't take any funds from the management company.

While this is true that the developer cant directly take money out, you will find that many developers also own the companies that provide services to the management companies (including management agencies). What will usually happen is that the initial contracts that are signed by the management company will be with these service providers...usually at inflated prices. For example in my development the landscape services were charged at 45K+ a year for the last few years. while the contract was in place we couldnt renegotiate the price...this year the fee for the landscape services dropped to 30K (mainly due to pressure from a number of residents).

what do the landscape company do for their money?? they cut the grass every wednesday (they dont even collect the grass cuttings!!!!!)

techdiver

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Manangement companies are the very reason you should never NEVER buy in a managed complex

I would agree. I rent in a managed complex and have rented in many other managed complexes and all you ever get is a list of school yard rules posted in your letterbox. I am happy I have the perspective of renting first as I now know I would never shell out ridiculous money for an apartment.

I really don't understand having them in a housing complex, in fact I do believe that new developments that are not apartments are not allowed to have them and that all local works such as grass cutting in common areas are taken over by the local authority.

legallyblondekk

Yes they are great when they do work and when people/shareholders put in the effort, but that is the exception I feel, rather than the rule. I live in a development which was primarily supposed to be owner occupier but is now mainly rental. I believe this is the reason why the developers are still the directors of the management company (and they are), most shareholders do not live in the properties, having let them and therefore it is only a few who actually care enough to do anything but in such a small number that its not possible to effect change. I considered convening an extraordinary general meeting but couldnt even get the quota for that.
The management agent that was appointed is rude and doesnt do anything but yet he hasnt been fired and someone more capable appointed. Paul makes it sound extremely easy but while he seems to have found the holy grail it is not so easy for us all to follow suit as I am but a lowly 'shareholder'.

Paulw

daheff wrote: »

While this is true that the developer cant directly take money out, you will find that many developers also own the companies that provide services to the management companies (including management agencies). What will usually happen is that the initial contracts that are signed by the management company will be with these service providers...usually at inflated prices.

Then it's up to the shareholders to lodge complaints and deal with the directors about these issues.

I can't say that I've had any experience like you outline. While the service providers that our original management agent were expensive and provided a poor service, I couldn't find any link between those service providers and the developer. Anyway, once we removed the developers as directors, and elected our own directors, we replaced the management agent and all service providers. This didn't dramatically reduce our management fees, but it did give us much better services.

It really depends how organised the shareholders are, and how active they are, to reduce their own costs.

Again, the terms - management company and management agent need to be clearly separated.

Sponge Bob

You know you are a shareholder in the company and yet you pretended the company was 'them' not 'you' . Furthermore you knew what an agent was.

Complain to the ODCE about it , www.odce.ie . Oppression of minority shareholders etc .

legallyblondekk

To be honest thats the language that the director used when I spoke to him this morning. I know i'm a shareholder, I know the difference between a company and its agent-but I also know enough about law of agency to know that there is a fine line between the directors of a company and the agent of that company. The directors and agent of the management company have told me, and I am as much as quoting, that they are the ones in control and have been extremely rude and abrupt about it. So you'll have to excuse the 'them' rather than 'we' attitude.
I also told the director I spoke to that I would like to convene an extraordinary general meeting of the company to discuss why some people have been billed regularly, some only after three-four years (me!) and why others have never received any bill at all but he laughed and said I would never get the quota required to convene the meeting or remove the current directors!!!! Very arrogant I thought.

Also I dont dispute the management fees as such, well I wish that I was getting more out of them but that is something I will remedy despite the directors arrogance. But why I really posted this was because I find it outrageous that after receiving no bill for over three and a half years (and lets face it everyone else would have forgotten about it too) I was shocked when a demand for a lump sum arrived and then to receive a summons without so much as a second warning!!!! Furthermore others in the estate have never seen a bill, so I feel I should definitely be given some leaway in terms of paying my backlog of fees, especially at a time when most people are feeling the pinch!!!
Paul suggested writing to the agent outlining a repayment scheme and after speaking to the rude director this morning I think I will proceed this way (thanks Paul)-but if they dont accept I face a court case and costs!!

Sponge Bob

legallyblondekk wrote: »

To be honest thats the language that the director used when I spoke to him this morning. I know i'm a shareholder, I know the difference between a company and its agent-but I also know enough about law of agency to know that there is a fine line between the directors of a company and the agent of that company. The directors and agent of the management company have told me, and I am as much as quoting, that they are the ones in control and have been extremely rude and abrupt about it. So you'll have to excuse the 'them' rather than 'we' attitude.

That is OK then but none of that was in anyway evident in your first post . Have you been sent the accounts and AGM notice like any shareholder should .

I also told the director I spoke to that I would like to convene an extraordinary general meeting of the company to discuss why some people have been billed regularly, some only after three-four years (me!) and why others have never received any bill at all but he laughed and said I would never get the quota required to convene the meeting or remove the current directors!!!! Very arrogant I thought.

I assume the director is also the builder and that most of the place was never sold ...but rented out .

If the builder still has half the place unsold they are right, you cannot get an EGM .

Also I dont dispute the management fees as such, well I wish that I was getting more out of them but that is something I will remedy despite the directors arrogance. But why I really posted this was because I find it outrageous that after receiving no bill for over three and a half years (and lets face it everyone else would have forgotten about it too) I was shocked when a demand for a lump sum arrived and then to receive a summons without so much as a second warning!!!! Furthermore others in the estate have never seen a bill, so I feel I should definitely be given some leaway in terms of paying my backlog of fees, especially at a time when most people are feeling the pinch!!!

I suspect you have not seen company accounts either. Get straight on to the ODCE and complain that company accounts have been withheld from you .

Paul suggested writing to the agent outlining a repayment scheme and after speaking to the rude director this morning I think I will proceed this way (thanks Paul)-but if they dont accept I face a court case and costs!!

You will probably find the agent is the builders brother and you should take Pauls advice and work out a plan.

However if you have not received annual accounts the Management Company is in breach of company law .

Is there an annual report , when was it filed ?? Check here

http://www.solocheck.ie/message.jsp

For all you know it has been struck off and legally has no directors !

Paulw

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If the builder still has half the place unsold they are right, you cannot get an EGM .

Yes you can. All you need is a quorum. Check the articles of association for your management company, and you can find the number there. Once you get agreement from that number of shareholders (depending on your development size, it might me a single digit number), then you can call an EGM and demand answers from the directors.

legallyblondekk wrote: »

The directors and agent of the management company have told me, and I am as much as quoting, that they are the ones in control and have been extremely rude and abrupt about it.

Paul suggested writing to the agent outlining a repayment scheme and after speaking to the rude director this morning I think I will proceed this way (thanks Paul)-but if they dont accept I face a court case and costs!!

That is very bad of them. But, even with that, there are always ways and means to deal with them.

As for making an effort to pay, if/when they take you to court, it is highly unlikely they will get a judgement against you for a lump sum. If you're making an effort to pay, then it's most likely that the judge will actually side with you.

Make sure you put as much communication as possible in writing (and send registered when possible). That will cover you too.

MunsterCycling

Maybe you should love the sound of your own voice less PaulW as it...


Have lived in and experienced the dire state of affairs that management companies and agents cause due to inaction, stupidity and greed, get your facts right before shouting from the roof tops and making a... :rolleyes:

Also maybe get out more.:cool::P:D;):eek:

Paulw wrote: »

You've obviously never lived in, nor had any practical dealings with a managed development. Your opinion is not based on facts, and again, you can't seem to back up anything you're saying.

Managed developments and management companies, when properly run, make for great developments to live in. But, you need to understand the facts and know what is going on.

I live in a managed development, I am a director of our management company, and our place is quite well run (nothing in life is perfect), and our fees are appropriate. When we see faults or faults are reported by unit owners, they are dealt with as best we can.

Paulw

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Have lived in and experienced the dire state of affairs that management companies and agents cause due to inaction, stupidity and greed

Well, if places are badly run by the management company, the shareholders should do something about it. People moaning and complaining on here will do little. In the vast majority of cases, there are plenty of ways and means to make changes and get the management agent to do what needs to be done. All it takes is a bit of organisation and some work.

There are too many people moaning and complaining about management companies and management agents, but they just don't want to make an effort to do something. They enjoy moaning too much.

Our development was sick of how badly things were being run, so we got together, got involved and made changes. Now the place is much better and our fees have decreased.

MunsterCycling

That's my point, most Irish people will not get off their arse to do something